Seb Coe broke 1:45 when he was 20. Kipketer didn't do it until he was 21.
It's 1:44.95 at age 20, 11 months (Coe) It's 1:43.25 at age 21, 7 months (Kipketer).
You're pretty much splitting hairs as Coe's major breakout was over his age 22-24 seasons, whereas Kipketer's was a pretty linear progression from age 21 to 24. Both were good, but not otherworldly from age 18-21.
I was responding to JWH's made up fact that Kipketer ran 1:47 at 15.
So if Jake Wightman was busted, it would say absolutely nothing about the liklihood of British 800m runners doping, so long as only two other British 'real' 800m runners got busted as well (along with 150+ other Brits)?
BTW, 20 Kenyans have been suspended or banned this year.
Here is the actual equivalent of what you're saying and it would happen over a 4-year span. - Jake Wightman (whereabouts) -Charlie Da'Vall Grice (EPO) -Daniel Rowden (EPO) -Jamie Webb (whereabouts) Would I then assume Max Burgin, Kyle Langford, Ben Pattison, Josh Kerr, Matthew Stonier, Jake Heyward, Neil Gourley and so on were all doping (like you do with every Kenyan)? No, I might be a little more suspicious of it, which I've never said you can't be.
Personally, I would give up on the sport after the second suspension.
So how did Kipketer make several failed attempts on the WR in 97 before crushing it?
He made 3 serious attempts on the season. Just because he runs 1:42 or 1:43 off of 50.5 or 51+ doesn't mean he was going after the record.
Attempt 1: Ties it in Stockholm 1:41.73 Attempt 2: Breaks it by .5 despite a 48-low first lap Attempt 3: Breaks it again by another .1 with sensible pacing
In 1996 he ran his 1:41.83 despite running 4th behind the pacemaker and not taking the lead until just over 200m to go (with a big surge). Do not think this was a deliberate attempt on the record, but rather just trying to run fast.
No Olympic medals for Kipketer against Coe's two silver? There was also no WC competition in much of Coe's era, which was '79/81 at its peak.
Kipketer won a Silver in 2000 narrowly getting beat and a Bronze in 2004 well past his prime. He was denied a chance in his prime to compete in 1996. From the fact that from the 1995-2000 prime of his he ran 4 global finals and went 3 golds, 1 silver, there’s really no disputing that Coe’s record in the 800 during his 79-84 prime of 0 golds, 2 silvers and 1 DNC is worse.
You are quite obtuse aren’t you?
Coe didn’t run in 4 global 800s between 79 and 84, he ran in 2, getting 2 silvers, whereas Kipketer had twice as many opportunities. Coe was ill in 83 and didn’t contest the World Champs. Yet you treat it as a defeat, which is ridiculous. Kipketer was unable to run in Atlanta, but you don’t view that as a defeat do you? Kipketer also had a world indoor champs to run in, which also didn’t exist for most of Coe’s career. You can’t dismiss one athlete’s lack of world golds when comparing him to an athlete in a different era when the former had less than half the opportunities to compete in said world champs. You also ignore Coe’s victory in the World Cup in 81, which was emphatic, when the field was much better than the field he faced in Moscow. if you’re comparing Coe and Kipketer directly in their championship/ major games record, then you should be looking only at those events at which both had equal access to. Therefore Olympics and Europeans, as they were both held every 4 years during their entire careers. If it were decided that the Olympics would in future be held every 2 years, do you not think that there would be many more repeat champions? Of course there would! Would it be fair to make a judgement that an athlete in the future, running in Olympics one year, World champs the next, then back to Olympics, etc, who ends up with 4 global golds, was better than say Snell, because he had won twice as many golds? Of course it wouldn’t. But that is in essence what you are doing. Comparing apples with oranges again.
How is this even an argument. Kipketer won no Olympic gold because he was denied the chance by the IOC that year where he went UNDEFEATED in the 800m, destroying everyone who medalled in that Olympic race. Olympic silver in 2000 and bronze in 2004, three WC golds in dominating fashion puts him well ahead of Coe's two Olympic silvers in two boycott Olympics. Kipketer was better than Coe in the 800m by a large margin, and it's not even close.
Kipketer improved the WR by 0.62secs. Coe improved it by 1.71secs. Coe’s improvement was greater than Kipketer’s by a large margin, almost 3 times as much, and it’s not even close.
You just ignore what others are stating don’t you? Which part of Kipketer had 5 or more opportunities to run in a global championships because they were held every 2 years throughout his career whereas Coe had 1 opportunity (but was ill that year)do you not comprehend?
WHAT? How did Sebastian Coe win 2 Silver medals @ 800m when you say he only had one opportunity to run in a global championship? You have really lost it Deanouk.
It's pretty obvious he was talking about world championships when refering to global champs. Stop being a pedant.
You really are a clown who hasn't got a clue about the 800m scene in those days. That list has edited out 3 of Coe's runs that were towards the top of the list.
He ran a 1:44.7 (2nd fastest run of the year) in Hull in June, a 1:45.0 on cinders at Loughborough (the fastest ever 800m run on dirt at the time), which was superior to Paige's 1:44.53.
I would put an asterisk over Kipketer's record, as I would for most middle and long distance track performances in that era.
But for sure not for Coe's record, right? One of the biggest outliers in history.
?? It's not an outlier. The man broke 9 outdoor world records and 3 indoor world records in 5 different seasons. He held the 1st and 2nd fastest 800m in history from 81 to 84. He ran 1:42.33 in a different season (2 years prior), with a third 200m of 24.8 (fastest ever 200m split in an 800 WR for the third 200m), and backed up his 1:41 with a 2:12.18 1000m that still ranks him #2 on all-time list (just 0.2 outside the WR) some 41 years later. You obviously don't know the definition of 'outlier'.
You just ignore what others are stating don’t you? Which part of Kipketer had 5 or more opportunities to run in a global championships because they were held every 2 years throughout his career whereas Coe had 1 opportunity (but was ill that year)do you not comprehend? You can’t criticise someone for not doing something that wasn’t possible for them to do! It’s a pretty simple and straightforward concept.
Regardless how lengthy your posts are, Deano, they will not change the simple fact: Coe's championship record is way inferior to both Kipketer's and Rudisha's:
Coe
1976 (19) Olympics: dnq
1977 (20) European Indoor: gold
1978 (21) European Champs: bronze
1980 (23) Olympics (boykottet): silver
1982 (25) European Champs: silver
1983: (26) World Champs: dnc
1984 (27) Olympics: silver
1986 (29) European Champs: gold
1987 (30) World Champs: dnc
1988 (31) Olympics: dnq
1990 (32) Commonwealth Games: 6th
European (outdoor) Champs were much more important then they are now.
also available for Coe: European Indoor Champs in any year1978 - 1990 - World Indoor Champs 1987, 1989 - Commonwealth Games 1978, 1982, 1986 (he qualified for the final)
This is way inferior to Kipketer:
1988 (15) World Junior Champs: won his heat but got a dq for going inside too early
1990 (17) World Junior Champs: 4th
1992 (19) Olympics: dnq
1993 (20) World Champs: dnq
1995 (22) World Champs: gold
1996 (23) Olympics: not allowed to compete because of change of nationality
1997 (24) World Indoor Champs: gold, World Champs: gold
1998 (25) European Champs: 8th (hindered with 100 to go by the winner)
1999 (26) World Indoor Champs: silver, World Champs: gold
2000 (27) Olympics: silver
2001 (28) World Champs: (dnq, did not race the whole season)
2002 (29) European Champs: gold
2003 (30) World Indoor Champs: silver, World Champs: 4th
2004 (31) Olympics: bronze
also available for Kipketer: European Indoor Champs 1996(?), 1998, 2000, 2002, Commonwealth Games 1990, 1994(?), African Champs: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992,1993(?)
Three global outdoor titles plus the indoor gold achieved in unique fashion, it's not even close, Deanouk.
No need to go into detail for Rudisha with Olympics: 2 golds, World Champs: 2 golds, African Champs: 2 golds; World Junior Champs: 1 gold
But for sure, Coe at his best from 81 was as good (better?) as Kipketer at his best from 97 or Rudisha from 2010 - 12.
I didn't have to read beyond the first stat you listed to recognise a Troll with no detailed knowledge of the sport's history at all.
Coe wasn't running 800m in the run up to the 76 Olympics. He entered the 1500m British Trials as a 19 year old, didn't qualify and wasn't expected to qualify. Yet you list him as a failure in an event he didn't even run. Muppet. Why don't you go and read a book on the subject.
If Coe had run in Rudisha's era he would just as likely be the world record-holder as the Kenyan. If Rudisha had run in Coe's era the Brit would just as likely have been the world record holder then, too. 0.8 seconds in over 30 years is no real improvement.
This might be fair, it's hard to say for sure. Championships matter too, and how one stacks up in their era.
Coe still couldn't win a global title in his era. 1980 - well-beaten second to a watered-down field. 1983- couldn't make it to the line. 1984- well-beaten second. 1987- couldn't make it to the line. 1988- couldn't make it to the line.
Compare to Rudisha and Kipketer. Kipketer wins his first 3 cracks at in his prime, and then narrowly gets silver in 2000. Rudisha struggles in 2009 in his first global champs, but then rips off 4 of 5 global titles missing just 2013 due to injury.
Are you serious? Of course he couldn't make it to the line in 83; he was in hospital having treatment for a serious illness. No one can predict when an illness wil lay you low and no one in their right mind would consider it a failure to win a race if they weren't even there.
And of course he couldn't make the line in 87 as he was out all season with an injury after his very first race of the season. In any case, he'd been training all winter to move up to 5000m, so he wouldn't have been running 800m at a championships that year if he hadn't been injured.
Perhaps we should include his failure to 'make it to the line in Barcelona 92 as well!
It was before EPO. He is also not Kenyan, which ranks second only to Russia for doping busts. If Coe possibly doped in some way I would say for certain that the fastest md Kenyan - sorry - Dutch athlete - in the '90's absolutely did, with EPO rife and no test for it.
(Also, Elliott and Ryun's world marks were bigger outliers than Coe's 800m record).
You just reek of bias. On the one hand, Kipketer was barely and maybe not even better than Coe based on the better tracks and racing opportunities. On the other hand, he is more likely to have doped despite being far less of an outlier because there was no EPO test and Kenya some 20 years later would start getting assorted drug busts. And because this was the EPO era. Well, how much testing was going on in the '80s, and how effectively they were stamping out Soviet doping or blood doping/steroid use from anyone else? The answer? Not much and almost not at all.
I'd just advise you to leave drugs out of the equation, and focus on your other arguments which are not great either, but at least are less easy to poke giant holes in.
Lol. And you don't!? Talk about pot calling kettle black
Explain to us the 13 secs personal improvement in the 1500m, the year 1979.
As I've already suggested, go and educate yourself by reading up on the era, because your comments either make no sense or are centred around totally made up claims.
Coe hardly ran any 1500's or 1 mile races after 76 until 79 as he had purposely moved down distance to 800m to focus on his speed. He had won a bronze in the 1975 European Junior Champs 1500m when 18, beating both Ray Flynn and Abascal. So it wasn't as if he had no pedigree as a junior.
In 77 he beat the 1500m world record holder (Filbert Bayi) in the Emsley Carr mile as a 20 year old in 3:57.7, which is convertable to a 3:40 1500m. This is 8 secs slower than his run in 79 (2 seasons later) not 13 secs.
You mentioned that if Coe had been running 6 or 7 Golden League races in the 1990's in his prime, he might have run .3 seconds faster. In his 1:41.7 he had to move round Konchellah, which cost him probably .3 seconds.
Surely even just the regular racing at close to your maximum potential will make you faster?
What do you think Kipketer would have ran if he was born the same year as Coe, and had precisely two races in his prime to set his pb, both with zero competition?
.3 to pass a guy? Come on. I said .3-.5, and again Coe made the decision to stop chasing times in the 800 not me. If you want to suggest he should've tried to run a quick time in 1984 in the build-up to LA, you won't get a disagreement from me.
The two times he committed to running as fast as possible he had zero competition and ran 1:41.1 and 1:41.2. Feels like those are a fair reflection of where he was.
No, that isn't the case.
In his 1:41.24 he was paced/drafted to 430m, when the rabbit drifted outwards, enabling Kipketer to run no extra distance. He then had 2 athletes right behind him up to 600m. So that isn't 'zero competition'.
In his 1:41.11, he was paced/drafted up to 550m.
That's 150m extra help than Coe had in either of his WR runs, both of which required him to run around the pacer on a bend. The effects of this were negligeable in the 79 race, costing maybe 0.1secs, but more damaging in the 81 race, where he ran about 50m of the bend wide in lane 1, causing him to run c. 2m extra, which is worth 0.25 - 0.3 secs. That brings his effort down to a conservative 1:41.5. With an extra 150m of pacing/competition, then it would probably have given him another tenth or two. But he had no competition on the 2nd lap in either race, being some 30m + ahead of the rest of the field in both races by 500m.
Do people think Kipketer was taking EPO in 1988 when he ran 1:47.0h at age 15? If a Brit did that today the same posters would be projecting 1:39 later in his career.
Well apparently he wasn't 15 in 1988! Kipketer's DOB was given as 12.12.1972 for a long time during his career, and can be found (well it used to be at least) on several websites listed as so. However, for unexplained reasons his DOB suddenly changed during his career to 12.12.70, making him 17 (not 15) when running a 1:47.0 in Nairobi at the beginning of 88.
The fact that his 'official' DOB changed during his actual running career is strange enough, but I would suggest what is more concerning that his actual age when achieving that time, impressive whether he was 15 or 17, was the fact that by the end of the 92 season (some 5 completed seasons later), his pb had only improved by 1.4 secs to 1:45.6. Whether he was 19 or 21 at the end of the 92 season is not as significant as the fact he made such a small improvement in 5 years. The following year he improved by less that 0.2 secs to 1:45.46 - a 1.54 improvement in 6 years.
In 94 he improves to 1:43.29 in a single season. That's a 2.17 secs improvement at the age of 23 (based on his now accepted DOB as being 1970).
This is a very unusual pattern of progression, and clearly something drastic happened between 93 and 94 that changed the trajectory of his career in a very marked way.
Seb Coe broke 1:45 when he was 20. Kipketer didn't do it until he was 21.
It's 1:44.95 at age 20, 11 months (Coe) It's 1:43.25 at age 21, 7 months (Kipketer).
You're pretty much splitting hairs as Coe's major breakout was over his age 22-24 seasons, whereas Kipketer's was a pretty linear progression from age 21 to 24. Both were good, but not otherworldly from age 18-21.
Lol. It depends which 'official' date of birth that there are for Kipketer that you believe to be the true one?
If you believe the 12.12.70 DOB then he didn't break 1:45 until he was 23 in the 1994 season. By that age Coe had already broken 3 world records at 3 different distances.
It's 1:44.95 at age 20, 11 months (Coe) It's 1:43.25 at age 21, 7 months (Kipketer).
You're pretty much splitting hairs as Coe's major breakout was over his age 22-24 seasons, whereas Kipketer's was a pretty linear progression from age 21 to 24. Both were good, but not otherworldly from age 18-21.
I was responding to JWH's made up fact that Kipketer ran 1:47 at 15.
He was responding to your comment “Seb Coe broke 1:45 when he was 20. Kipketer didn't do it until he was 21” so his reply is totally relevant and valid.
As for my “made up fact,” go to his World Athletics profile, choose the “results” tab, not “progression” (which excludes hand-timed results) and select 1988. That paired with his DOB listed on his profile of 12/12/1972 is how I arrived at my “made up fact.”
Lol. It depends which 'official' date of birth that there are for Kipketer that you believe to be the true one?
If you believe the 12.12.70 DOB then he didn't break 1:45 until he was 23 in the 1994 season. By that age Coe had already broken 3 world records at 3 different distances.
I’m not accusing you of providing a “made up fact,” but where do you see his DOB listed as 1970? World Athletics, Wikipedia and Olympics.com all say 1972.
You just reek of bias. On the one hand, Kipketer was barely and maybe not even better than Coe based on the better tracks and racing opportunities. On the other hand, he is more likely to have doped despite being far less of an outlier because there was no EPO test and Kenya some 20 years later would start getting assorted drug busts. And because this was the EPO era. Well, how much testing was going on in the '80s, and how effectively they were stamping out Soviet doping or blood doping/steroid use from anyone else? The answer? Not much and almost not at all.
I'd just advise you to leave drugs out of the equation, and focus on your other arguments which are not great either, but at least are less easy to poke giant holes in.
Lol. And you don't!? Talk about pot calling kettle black
Deanouk, you are truly the most notoriously biased poster in the history of this website.
WHAT? How did Sebastian Coe win 2 Silver medals @ 800m when you say he only had one opportunity to run in a global championship? You have really lost it Deanouk.
It's pretty obvious he was talking about world championships when refering to global champs. Stop being a pedant.
So you are ordering me to attempt to interpret falsehoods in a manner conducive to the spin intended by the spinmeister? This is not going to happen.
