Also - I was there and the lead pack went through the 2 mile mark around 9:10. Still ridiculously fast but not sub 9:00 fast.
Also - I was there and the lead pack went through the 2 mile mark around 9:10. Still ridiculously fast but not sub 9:00 fast.
aging Titus wrote:
Short or not short, I don't know the last time I've seen someone run 8:5x over the first two miles of a cross country course. And this wasn't simply one runner, a contingent of runners ran sub-9. Unless you intend on stating that the mile markers were also incorrect.
If the measurements are off for the whole thing and they think they are correct, why couldn't/wouldn't the early marks be off as well?
In my experiences, I have seen many courses that are set up that way, consistently short at every mark, and guess what? Everyone runs fast times. I have also seen many courses that are spot on at early k splits and the first two miles but then end up being 100m or more short, and guess what? EVERYONE runs fast times.
Here are the distances I had from the meets we attended this year:
4994m DNM 5036m 4987m 4973m 4993m 5009 4855m 5005m 4955m 5009m 5019m
Second meet was on the first day of school and we weren't able to leave early enough to measure the whole course = Did Not Measure. Guess which meet EVERYONE PR'd on that I didn't count the times for PRs?
Beckham wrote:
Also - I was there and the lead pack went through the 2 mile mark around 9:10. Still ridiculously fast but not sub 9:00 fast.
Live stream had it wrong stating the 9:41 but was later reported as 2.1. Lots of reports of 8:58/9:00 - is there a 3k mark, 3200, and 2 mile ? I heard the marks are all permanent but don't think anyone stated how many permanent markings.
Plenty of coaches I know have questioned it and only one of them is a Let Run lurker.
I just feel bad for all the kids that will not PR next year unless they head back to Alabama to do it.
I believe it has 1K, 1M, 2K, 3K, 2M, 4K, 3M all posted. I ran the community race at RXC and those are the main ones I remember. These are all permanent metal signs along the course.
Steel Tapeless wrote:
Beckham wrote:
Also - I was there and the lead pack went through the 2 mile mark around 9:10. Still ridiculously fast but not sub 9:00 fast.
Live stream had it wrong stating the 9:41 but was later reported as 2.1. Lots of reports of 8:58/9:00 - is there a 3k mark, 3200, and 2 mile ? I heard the marks are all permanent but don't think anyone stated how many permanent markings.
Yes every K was marked with a permanent fixed sign, as was each mile of the course. There were also mile markers and K markers out there for 6K, 8K, and 10K courses and all were fixed and permanent signs.
Steel Tapeless wrote:
Plenty of coaches I know have questioned it and only one of them is a Let Run lurker.
I just feel bad for all the kids that will not PR next year unless they head back to Alabama to do it.
Or they actually continue to improve.
So what happens when GPS data for NXN and Balboa come back similar to RXC GPS data? Are those course subject to the same scrutiny?
Well this is awkward..
Ghost of Ward Cleaver wrote:
coachy wrote:
Yes and the same with road courses. Some have turns and some don't, some have hills while others done. We can't compare them. Tracks are different too. Some are worn down and some are brand new. Some have longer turns and shorter straights then others. Some track are made of mondo and some are other materials. We can't compare those times either, even if they are the same distance.
I don't think too many people are concerned about their Turkey Trot 5k course measurement and very few road races are claiming they have the fastest course in the nation.
Obviously in track there are such differences that even the NCAA has factors in place. But, most people are okay with comparing track times as long as the races were contested over the correct, full distance. Someone posted the mistake in a 200m race where the contestant started at the wrong place and raced 185m for a huge World Record. Should that time have counted? It was only off by 15m? Are we bad fans of the sport if we question a sub :19 200 in to a head wind?
Actually my Turkey Trot was USATF certified. Road courses have an actual procedure in place for certifying but unfortunately XC does not (that I know of).
So now we are comparing a race that was on TV and everyone saw and know for a face that it was 13% short to a XC race that you are guessing that you think might have possible been short? Yep that's exactly the same.
Another Option wrote:
WEJO/ROJO,
Use whatever connections you have to contact the experts who laid out the course. My understanding is that they went to great lengths to create the fastest course possible. Surely, they have a story to tell. I would love to hear it.
That being said I think we've created a culture where facts matter not once we've reached our conclusion.
I am astounded by the ignorance of what I have thought are generally intelligent letsrun posters.
Stop quoting Strava distances. They are notoriously inaccurate.
Stop providing results of using measuring wheels, calibrated or not. Even when calibrated, wheels slip in grass, loose dirt, etc. I've yet to see a coach arrive at a meet and calibrate their wheel before measuring a course.
Stop asking if the course is certified. There is no certification process for a number of reasons.
Doubting Thomases are going to doubt. Some aren't going to believe the result regardless of the evidence provided.
I am disappointed that so many are willing to judge a cross country race based only on time. NFHS rules state only that a HS XC course is to be between 2500 and 5000 meters. There is no requirement to measure it within any given tolerance. Even the same course runs differently on different days.
Ritz course wasn't certified, either.
Relax and enjoy what was probably the best performance by a HS cross country team ever based on who they beat and how they did it.
Here is everyone involved in the planning and designing of this course.
John Hunt Park Cross Country Running Course Design/Contracting Team: Bostick Landscape Architect, Hyde Engineering, J. M. Phillips –Civil Engineer, Eagle Golf & Athletics, Inc., Commercial Landscape Service, Inc., Merit Construction, City of Huntsville departments of Public Works, General Services, Landscape Management, GIS, and Parks & Recreation
They went to great lengths to build this as a park specifically to hold meets. I’m sure they would love to educate any of you skeptics as to the process, development, and implementation of this park and of course how they were able to measure such a complex distance accurately.
Hello everyone. We are working on an article on the course length. A trusted coach measured it with a wheel and found it to be short. Now some are saying a wheel can't be trusted. I've also read the following article about how a wheel is normally short.
https://fl.milesplit.com/articles/187587/cross-country-course-measurement-a-practical-consideration
As explained i n that article, a surveyor measured 750 meters with a steel tape and then did it with a wheel 7 times and got between 743 and 745 meters depending on the length of the grass.
I did the math and that means you need to multiple all marks by 1.006149 or 1.008629 (he has differnet numbers that are similar, I'm not sure of the discrepancy).. The thing is the Running Lane course would be still short if someone wheeled it and found it to be 4935. If it's 65 meters short with a wheel and you multiple it by 1.006149 you get 4965 and if you multiply it by 1.008629 then you only get 4977.586.
I think weldon is reaching out to David Katz.
I am willing to fly down there. If we can find a local road race certifier, I'd walk it with him and live stream it. Or what's wrong with me buying a brand new wheel and just walking the tangents? What other option do we have that would be better?
Email me if you know how to measure a course and are willing to help out.
rojo wrote:
As explained i n that article, a surveyor measured 750 meters with a steel tape and then did it with a wheel 7 times and got between 743 and 745 meters depending on the length of the grass.
I did the math and that means you need to multiple all marks by 1.006149 or 1.008629 (he has differnet numbers that are similar, I'm not sure of the discrepancy).. The thing is the Running Lane course would be still short if someone wheeled it and found it to be 4935. If it's 65 meters short with a wheel and you multiple it by 1.006149 you get 4965 and if you multiply it by 1.008629 then you only get 4977.586.
I think weldon is reaching out to David Katz.
I am willing to fly down there. If we can find a local road race certifier, I'd walk it with him and live stream it. Or what's wrong with me buying a brand new wheel and just walking the tangents? What other option do we have that would be better?
Email me if you know how to measure a course and are willing to help out.
robert@letsrun.com
Typical misleading slanderish Journalism by you Robert. That article has nothing to do with this course. the fact remain s there is NO certification process for cross country course, why isn't anyone pointing at Footlocker, FSU course, Woodbridge, the list goes on, here is some strava activity for you to ponder. Are you gonna go fly to all of these courses to measure them, GIVE IT UP!
https://www.strava.com/activities/5983213226/segments/2874542636953997726https://www.strava.com/segments/19418052https://www.strava.com/activities/6284249574- FSU course shorter than John Hunt Park 10k.... Interesting.
https://www.strava.com/activities/6247895164- John Hunt 10k
I could link dozens of my activities on USATF CERTIFIED 5ks, 10ks, 10 milers, and halfs and my watch has only read as long as 13.17 for a half and 10.07 for a 10 miler, and yet we have 1000s of kids with 3.12 or longer for 5k on this John Hunt park and yet you still doubt, get a life!
Slap Schtick wrote:
As Leo Young pointed out, having spectators yelling wildly 2-3 deep throughout the course is unprecedented in prep history. That alone is worth 10-20 seconds.
Not true. I can't wait until people come out with studies on how the lack of crowds during Covid barely impacted MLB, NFL, NBA, etc.
If it was true that crowds were a big factor then the men's 1500 final at the Olympics woudln't have been so fast.
100% this. All time records are almost meaningless in Cross country. Even course records are impacted by weather. Runninglane is extremely wide and if you measure from the middle and kids are running the tangents it could make the course extremely short. But they also roll the course the night before and pack it down. The kids are not all of a sudden super fast. Touhy would have went 15:45 on this course in good conditions.
The kids aren’t all of a sudden faster the course is super fast. No significant turns or hills and packed down firm. Also depends where they measure from. Course is super wide so if measuring from middle and leaders run tangents than could be short. College coaches look at what place you came in and who you beat. So what if your shiny new PR is 14:50 if you came in 70th place. Anybody arguing differently are just trying to defend their new shiny PR.
There were a ton of kids that just achieved their forever PR unless they return. The evidence is right in front of everyone. The sixth fastest girl in VA this year just ran 16:54 and she hasn’t won any state championships and now she has a top eight all time mark in VA courtesy of RunningLane.
Saladbar who? wrote:
Typical misleading slanderish Journalism by you Robert. That article has nothing to do with this course. the fact remain s there is NO certification process for cross country course, why isn't anyone pointing at Footlocker, FSU course, Woodbridge, the list goes on, here is some strava activity for you to ponder. Are you gonna go fly to all of these courses to measure them, GIVE IT UP!
!
What are you talking about? Misleading? I'm open to the fact it's short. I'm open to the fact that it's accurate. I never stated one thing or the other.
What's misleading about saying a guy wheeled it and found it to be short and we are looking into writing an article about that (waiting to here back from RL)?
I'm the opposite of misleading. I'm willing to fly down there so there is nothing misleading about it.
I'll say this. Someone on our Monday staff call said, "72 guys broke 15:00 so I think it's short." That' doesn't stun me at all.
The reality is 73 guys were within 16 seconds per mile of Sahlman.
If he's an 8:40 guy, that means they are 9:12 guys. Well in 2019 there were 180+ people that ran 9:12 or faster so does it shock me that 73 could do it here? No.
One thing that's possible is that this course is accurately 5k but most courses are wheeled and therefore actually a little bit long.
rojo wrote:
Saladbar who? wrote:
Typical misleading slanderish Journalism by you Robert. That article has nothing to do with this course. the fact remain s there is NO certification process for cross country course, why isn't anyone pointing at Footlocker, FSU course, Woodbridge, the list goes on, here is some strava activity for you to ponder. Are you gonna go fly to all of these courses to measure them, GIVE IT UP!
!
What are you talking about? Misleading? I'm open to the fact it's short. I'm open to the fact that it's accurate. I never stated one thing or the other.
What's misleading about saying a guy wheeled it and found it to be short and we are looking into writing an article about that (waiting to here back from RL)?
I'm the opposite of misleading. I'm willing to fly down there so there is nothing misleading about it.
I'll say this. Someone on our Monday staff call said, "72 guys broke 15:00 so I think it's short." That' deosnt' stun me at all.
The reality is 73 guys were within 16 seconds per mile of Sahlman.
If he's an 8:40 guy, that means they are 9:12 guys. Well in 2019 there were 180+ people that ran 9:12 or faster so does it shock me that 73 could do it here? No.
One thing that's possible is that this course is accurately 5k but most courses are wheeled and therefore actually a little bit long.
So have you checked all the other courses around the country, who wheeled and flew to the course when Ritz "Set the record". FSU course, have you spent money to investigate it? You are blatantly trying to discredit the City of Huntsville and RunningLane, I'm sure the City Attorney would love to chat with you.
If there is no definition of what a proper way to measure a XC course is, then why are you using a wheel? I think some governing body needs to first determine how XC courses can be "certified" before diving in with some way to measure it. That is the whole problem.
I have certified dozens of road courses over the years but this has nothing to do with that.