If we were actually following the data and science and weren't selfish, we wouldn't allow Cole Hocker to get vaccinated now

rojo wrote:

good call wrote:

Does that 'we' include those responsible for the LetsRun message board? Are we finally going to see a tougher stance against all the racism we have to wade through there?

That would be great!

Can you call facebook? Can you call twitter? No you can't. You can call me and i'll pick up phone.

I keep hearing about all of the racism and sexism but no one can ever find a post that is actually racist or sexist that doens't get deleted. Remember when a prominent steeplechaser raised a stink about it about a year or two ago. She was complaining about posts that GOT DELETED.

Now I'm not saying that people don't posts awful things. They do. And I'm sure we don't delete them all. But moderation is hard. WE can do better but again, feel free to pick up the phone and call me.

fake news alert wrote:

It's insane how many people are outraged that the fittest, healthiest 19 year old in the nation is not vaccinated.

If you are vaccinated then you are immune. Or do you fear the vaccine you got is not effective? And if the vaccine is not effective, why are you telling people to get it? This is how cults start.

You raise an interesting point.

They've done their part - why in the F do they care so much about it?

The answer is

1) the kids can't be vaxxed. I personally am still concerned about my 3 year old and

2) There are many immunocompromised people.

3) There are a lot of people around the globe with no access to it.

Again, I've personally had a conversation with a friend of mine who is under 35 and begged him to get vaxxed for reasons #1 and #2.

But I think many of these WWWPs - (well-off, white, woke people) - feel guilt about #3. Deep down they know what we've done in this country is selfish.

rojo wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

If the argument were that because he's an elite athlete and he wants to be at his very best for the Olympics and therefore doesn't want to take the vaccine now because it could hamper his training and/or his performance at The Olympics, then that's one thing, and we could probably have some reasonable debate on that.

BUT, that is not what Rojo and some others are saying.

Saying that it's ethical to not take it because there are elderly people elsewhere in the world who need it is wrong.

Saying he's not at risk because he's young and healthy is wrong.

Saying that anyone who is vaccinated shouldn't care if others are vaccinated or not is wrong.

I'm saying we shouldn't ALLOW it. I think by changing the word encourage to allow it's more clear. Save the vitriol for an elite athlete who has a lot of performance related reasons to not have taken it and direct it at the idiots who are largely wasting vaccines on people like him while the poor black and brown grandparents around the globe die of Covid.

rojo wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

If the argument were that because he's an elite athlete and he wants to be at his very best for the Olympics and therefore doesn't want to take the vaccine now because it could hamper his training and/or his performance at The Olympics, then that's one thing, and we could probably have some reasonable debate on that.

BUT, that is not what Rojo and some others are saying.

Saying that it's ethical to not take it because there are elderly people elsewhere in the world who need it is wrong.

Saying he's not at risk because he's young and healthy is wrong.

Saying that anyone who is vaccinated shouldn't care if others are vaccinated or not is wrong.

I'm saying we shouldn't ALLOW it. I think by changing the word encourage to allow it's more clear. Save the vitriol for an elite athlete who has a lot of performance related reasons to not have taken it and direct it at the idiots who are largely wasting vaccines on people like him while the poor black and brown grandparents around the globe die of Covid.

rojo wrote:

5kTime wrote:

Rojo, I challenge you to find a scientist that specializes in virology or epidemiology that agrees with your logic and post it on the site. Until then stop arguing you're following the science.

I think every virology expert in the world would agree that if we have 500 million vaccine doses to give out that we should give them out to 500 million senior citizens before we give them to a single super fit 19-year old.

You want to bet? I'll bet you $1,000.

I'll do it right now. I'll broadcast the bet live and then call the virologists live on the phone.

I'll say the following to them.

Let's say there are 500 million vaccine doses in the world. Option 1. We give all 500 million to the only people over 65.

Option #2. We give 499 million to the elderly of the world but we save 1 million of the doses for the fittest 19-year olds in the West.

Which do you prefer?

I have to go pick up my kid at school, but cal me if you want to take me up on it.

844LetsRun

2600 bro wrote:

Yes the microbiome has tremendous impact on how our immune system developed and learns what’s good and bad.

Yes it’s possible vaccines influence that

Yes it’s possible hygienic lifestyle influences that

Yes it’s possible food influences that

Yes it’s possible genetics influence that

Yes it’s possible viral infections influence that's

We are just barely beginning to understand the cause effect relationships in the microbiome. What we can do it look at vaccinated populations vs unvaccinated and see if there are safety signals for autoimmunity. By and large there are not!

Vaccines carry very small risks of adverse effects. All the things I listed can cause bad things too!

The risks of COVID infection so far outweigh the risks of the vaccine that it’s just disingenuous to posture about “long term risks” when the preventative benefit is so massive. It comes across as speculation to defend preexisting dogma.

Jefe in the CO wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

Yes the microbiome has tremendous impact on how our immune system developed and learns what’s good and bad.

Yes it’s possible vaccines influence that

Yes it’s possible hygienic lifestyle influences that

Yes it’s possible food influences that

Yes it’s possible genetics influence that

Yes it’s possible viral infections influence that's

We are just barely beginning to understand the cause effect relationships in the microbiome. What we can do it look at vaccinated populations vs unvaccinated and see if there are safety signals for autoimmunity. By and large there are not!

Vaccines carry very small risks of adverse effects. All the things I listed can cause bad things too!

The risks of COVID infection so far outweigh the risks of the vaccine that it’s just disingenuous to posture about “long term risks” when the preventative benefit is so massive. It comes across as speculation to defend preexisting dogma.

Thanks for that reply Bro. That's my bad if that's how it came across. The microbiome content of my post was more motivated to stimulate a desire for people to learn more about their physiology rather than continue to live in ignorant bliss trusting that the medical community has their best interests at heart and will always save the day.

The other parts of my post could probably be categorized as long haul Covid fatigue - the psychological kind.

Still, as we move towards vaccinating younger, healthier populations the odds between risk factors shrink. I've seen anecdotal article after article of vaccine hesitant folks who then got Covid and regretted their decision to not get vaccinated. I've yet to see an article of a parent of a vaccinated son or daughter who were injured/died from the vaccine and regretted their decision - hence my fatigue of being inundated with only one side of the formula.

rojo wrote:

good call wrote:

Does that 'we' include those responsible for the LetsRun message board? Are we finally going to see a tougher stance against all the racism we have to wade through there?

That would be great!

Can you call facebook? Can you call twitter? No you can't. You can call me and i'll pick up phone.

I keep hearing about all of the racism and sexism but no one can ever find a post that is actually racist or sexist that doens't get deleted. Remember when a prominent steeplechaser raised a stink about it about a year or two ago. She was complaining about posts that GOT DELETED.

Now I'm not saying that people don't posts awful things. They do. And I'm sure we don't delete them all. But moderation is hard. WE can do better but again, feel free to pick up the phone and call me.

fake news alert wrote:

It's insane how many people are outraged that the fittest, healthiest 19 year old in the nation is not vaccinated.

If you are vaccinated then you are immune. Or do you fear the vaccine you got is not effective? And if the vaccine is not effective, why are you telling people to get it? This is how cults start.

You raise an interesting point.

They've done their part - why in the F do they care so much about it?

The answer is

1) the kids can't be vaxxed. I personally am still concerned about my 3 year old and

2) There are many immunocompromised people.

3) There are a lot of people around the globe with no access to it.

Again, I've personally had a conversation with a friend of mine who is under 35 and begged him to get vaxxed for reasons #1 and #2.

But I think many of these WWWPs - (well-off, white, woke people) - feel guilt about #3. Deep down they know what we've done in this country is selfish.

Jefe in the CO wrote:

I posted this in another thread awhile ago. We know that vaccines come with short term and long term complications, not just what shows up in the VAERS data base, but long term injuries that don't present themselves until much later:

"Prof Ley told me: "We have over the past 50 years done a terrific job of eliminating infectious disease.

"But we have seen an enormous and terrifying increase in autoimmune disease and in allergy.

"Where work on the microbiome comes in is seeing how changes in the microbiome, that happened as a result of the success we've had fighting pathogens, have now contributed to a whole new set of diseases that we have to deal with."

The microbiome is also being linked to diseases including inflammatory bowel disease, Parkinson's, whether cancer drugs work and even depression and autism."

The vaccination debate really only centers around whether the threat from Covid is greater than the threat to our short and long term health.

I'm guessing that the reason there is so much virtue signaling and public shaming around vaccinations is because we, as a nation, are so frightened of Covid. As well we should be because we are so fundamentally unhealthy (obesity is the highest risk factor for those with Covid).

We have no collective knowledge of how best to protect ourselves from disease and apparently have no desire to learn how. So instead we outsource our immune system to the medical community - arguably the worst place to seek protection. What we need to be doing is educating our citizens on how best to get off the pills and get on to the business of cultivating our good microbes (yes I do realize that there's no money in that.)

It has already been stated that we are shipping 50 million plus vaccines to other parts of the world. So for argument sake, if all the Cole Hockers of the US got their vaccines then we'd only be shipping 20 million to the third world?

So while many complain that Rojo's argument may have been clumsily stated - his point is valid. I understand that for the vaccine orthodoxy this is a tough pill to swallow but it likely has less adverse effect on your health than the actual vaccine.

I do agree that for the obese, elderly, and immune compromised, Covid is a very real threat. To the rest of us...not so much.

So what's left? A personal decision by Cole, who presumably has natural immunity, to take the shot or rely on his immune system?

Let's see: he's young, healthy, not obese, has natural immunity, no comorbidities. Conclusion: Go pick on someone else. I'm sure there's better pariahs out there to publicly castigate.

I'm not sure why the orthodoxy wants to make an example out of Cole when there are so many other individuals who's heads should be on a pike. Maybe political correctness?

rojo wrote:

good call wrote:

Does that 'we' include those responsible for the LetsRun message board? Are we finally going to see a tougher stance against all the racism we have to wade through there?

That would be great!

Can you call facebook? Can you call twitter? No you can't. You can call me and i'll pick up phone.

I keep hearing about all of the racism and sexism but no one can ever find a post that is actually racist or sexist that doens't get deleted. Remember when a prominent steeplechaser raised a stink about it about a year or two ago. She was complaining about posts that GOT DELETED.

Now I'm not saying that people don't posts awful things. They do. And I'm sure we don't delete them all. But moderation is hard. WE can do better but again, feel free to pick up the phone and call me.