never to be seen again wrote:
Yeah, 3:37 & 7:33 may well end up being his PRs. So he confirmed he is a few seconds faster than Joe Klecker.
They are his pr's until he runs faster.
never to be seen again wrote:
Yeah, 3:37 & 7:33 may well end up being his PRs. So he confirmed he is a few seconds faster than Joe Klecker.
They are his pr's until he runs faster.
Armstronglivs wrote:
You know nothing about running if you think the "perfect preparation" for a longer event is to run a shorter event no faster than the pace of the longer event.
While it *may* not be the “perfect” preparation, it may nevertheless be successful. It worked well for me in my sub-20 5k effort. Of course perfection might be what is needed to break 7:20, depending on the athlete.
Armstronglivs wrote:
He didn't say what you claim he did. No one does.
You know nothing about running if you think the "perfect preparation" for a longer event is to run a shorter event no faster than the pace of the longer event. Does an aspiring 3.50 miler prepare by running an 800 event in 1.55? Ridiculous. As a "speed test" it is a failure - that would need to be in the region of 1.45 - and if he can only run 1.55 for 800 and no further it is an endurance fail.
I did not hear Cheptegei say that he was trying to race the 1500 or 3k at 5k pace - which is a nonsense. If that was offered as a rationale it is merely an excuse for an unimpressive performance. This doesn't look like an athlete who is nearing his peak for a global championship. That will take something other than "modern training".
If you listen to his 1500m post race video, you should hear precisely what I heard him say.
With this post, once again you are the one showing that you really know nothing about training.
A 1500m time trial at 105% of 5000m speed in April, and a 3000m at 5000m speed in mid-May, 10-11 weeks before the Olympics, fits perfectly like a hand in a well-fitted glove, when you look at the progression of training in terms of first INTENSIVE then EXTENSIVE training.
A 1500m specialist would train differently than a 5000m/10000m/road specialist, so the comparison is apples and oranges. In any case, 1500m specialists are running about as slow in April and May as this non-specialist. I'm not sure why you are so critical of a 5000m/10000m running 3:37 at altitude, when 1500m specialists are running 3:36 and 3:35, this early in the season. It makes me think you have no way of truly gauging what is important.
Why would you say "nearing his peak for a global championship", when these preparation races are three months and 10-11 weeks before the Olympics? Since you still live in the '60s, what times would a Murray Halberg be running 10 weeks to 3 months before the Olympics? He would be just coming down from the hills and heading to the track for the first time. Again, it's like you have no real reference to how elite athletes train.
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
He didn't say what you claim he did. No one does.
You know nothing about running if you think the "perfect preparation" for a longer event is to run a shorter event no faster than the pace of the longer event. Does an aspiring 3.50 miler prepare by running an 800 event in 1.55? Ridiculous. As a "speed test" it is a failure - that would need to be in the region of 1.45 - and if he can only run 1.55 for 800 and no further it is an endurance fail.
I did not hear Cheptegei say that he was trying to race the 1500 or 3k at 5k pace - which is a nonsense. If that was offered as a rationale it is merely an excuse for an unimpressive performance. This doesn't look like an athlete who is nearing his peak for a global championship. That will take something other than "modern training".
If you listen to his 1500m post race video, you should hear precisely what I heard him say.
With this post, once again you are the one showing that you really know nothing about training.
A 1500m time trial at 105% of 5000m speed in April, and a 3000m at 5000m speed in mid-May, 10-11 weeks before the Olympics, fits perfectly like a hand in a well-fitted glove, when you look at the progression of training in terms of first INTENSIVE then EXTENSIVE training.
A 1500m specialist would train differently than a 5000m/10000m/road specialist, so the comparison is apples and oranges. In any case, 1500m specialists are running about as slow in April and May as this non-specialist. I'm not sure why you are so critical of a 5000m/10000m running 3:37 at altitude, when 1500m specialists are running 3:36 and 3:35, this early in the season. It makes me think you have no way of truly gauging what is important.
Why would you say "nearing his peak for a global championship", when these preparation races are three months and 10-11 weeks before the Olympics? Since you still live in the '60s, what times would a Murray Halberg be running 10 weeks to 3 months before the Olympics? He would be just coming down from the hills and heading to the track for the first time. Again, it's like you have no real reference to how elite athletes train.
The waffle never ends. So Halberg was training as Cheptegei does today? Modern training isn't so different after all.
The one argument you can prove beyond dispute is that if athletes trained as you describe they would be just as fast as you. Poor Cheptegei.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
You know nothing about running if you think the "perfect preparation" for a longer event is to run a shorter event no faster than the pace of the longer event.
While it *may* not be the “perfect” preparation, it may nevertheless be successful. It worked well for me in my sub-20 5k effort. Of course perfection might be what is needed to break 7:20, depending on the athlete.
So how many 1500 runners run an 800 at the same kind of pace as their 1500?
Armstronglivs wrote:
The waffle never ends. So Halberg was training as Cheptegei does today? Modern training isn't so different after all.
The one argument you can prove beyond dispute is that if athletes trained as you describe they would be just as fast as you. Poor Cheptegei.
I only brought up Halberg, because I thought you were an expert on the '60s and '70s, and that this expectation comes from somewhere.
Where does your expectation come from that a 5000m/10000m should run a 1500m faster than 1500m specialists in April, three months before the Olympics? Is that based on something that happened here on planet Earth, within the last 60 years?
Your comments don't make any sense, when you understand training.
- If someone like Halberg was running the mile much faster than his 3 mile pace, in April, three months before the Olympics, that would be a clear sign that training was different.
- The aerobic phases of Lydiard and for modern training aren't all that different -- the differences between linear and non-linear training come in the later phases.
- You keep looking at OUTPUT of training, when I only described the INPUT of modern training -- how to decide which pace and distance you attempt
Armstronglivs wrote:
So how many 1500 runners run an 800 at the same kind of pace as their 1500?
Let's see if we can get a glimpse of the depth of insight of your knowledge of training.
How fast should a 3:30 1500m run an 800m, in April, 3 months before the Olympics, before any speed training on the track?
Running a SPECIFIC 1500m/3:30 pace for 800m is 1:46.7-1:52.
For me, that doesn't seem all that particularly unusual, if it appeared in an early track training session three months before the Olympic 1500m.
Do you have any specific examples in mind of a 1500m runner running faster before having trained on the track?
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
The waffle never ends. So Halberg was training as Cheptegei does today? Modern training isn't so different after all.
The one argument you can prove beyond dispute is that if athletes trained as you describe they would be just as fast as you. Poor Cheptegei.
I only brought up Halberg, because I thought you were an expert on the '60s and '70s, and that this expectation comes from somewhere.
Where does your expectation come from that a 5000m/10000m should run a 1500m faster than 1500m specialists in April, three months before the Olympics? Is that based on something that happened here on planet Earth, within the last 60 years?
Your comments don't make any sense, when you understand training.
- If someone like Halberg was running the mile much faster than his 3 mile pace, in April, three months before the Olympics, that would be a clear sign that training was different.
- The aerobic phases of Lydiard and for modern training aren't all that different -- the differences between linear and non-linear training come in the later phases.
- You keep looking at OUTPUT of training, when I only described the INPUT of modern training -- how to decide which pace and distance you attempt
You just shifted the goal posts again. I did not say a 5k specialist should run 1500 in the same region as a 1500 specialist. You lie repeatedly so that you can put the argument on ground where you feel safer.
What you were arguing is that it is "modern training" for a 5k specialist to run 1500 at the same approximate pace as an event twice that distance or even at 5k pace. Garbage.
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
So how many 1500 runners run an 800 at the same kind of pace as their 1500?
Let's see if we can get a glimpse of the depth of insight of your knowledge of training.
How fast should a 3:30 1500m run an 800m, in April, 3 months before the Olympics, before any speed training on the track?
Running a SPECIFIC 1500m/3:30 pace for 800m is 1:46.7-1:52.
For me, that doesn't seem all that particularly unusual, if it appeared in an early track training session three months before the Olympic 1500m.
Do you have any specific examples in mind of a 1500m runner running faster before having trained on the track?
The onus is on you, because of what you claim is event "specific" training. Find a 3.30 runner who races 1.54 for the 800 at any time in their track season (and not a purely tactical 62/52 race but 3.30 pace of 57/57).
Going back into the past - Snell was a 3.54 miler (he only ran the 1500m at Tokyo '64). At no point in his Olympic build up was he running a 1.57 half. (He ran 1.45 at Tokyo). Each event has its own target pace, depending on the athlete's condition and where they are in the season - but it isn't the pace of a longer (or shorter) event.
It’s training pace for the shorter distance, and race pace for only the longer distance.
Your question is ridiculous, and you know it.
Armstronglivs wrote:
You just shifted the goal posts again. I did not say a 5k specialist should run 1500 in the same region as a 1500 specialist. You lie repeatedly so that you can put the argument on ground where you feel safer.
What you were arguing is that it is "modern training" for a 5k specialist to run 1500 at the same approximate pace as an event twice that distance or even at 5k pace. Garbage.
If I understand you correctly, you think it is garbage. How sad.
It is just sad to hear you keep offering an opinion in a domain where you clearly have no current knowledge.
What you think you said or what I said is not as important as reality: Cheptegei -- a non-specialist -- ran 3:37, at altitude, while specialists -- Centrowitz, Jakob, and Musagala ran 3:35-3:36 for their season openers.
Furthermore, Cheptegei, in his own words, was happy with his pace, because it was his 5000m/10000m pace, and this is good preparation for the Olympics.
These are not my goalposts, or my arguments, or anything else but real numbers from a clock, and real words from Cheptegei -- I'm just a messenger.
Armstronglivs wrote:
The onus is on you, because of what you claim is event "specific" training. Find a 3.30 runner who races 1.54 for the 800 at any time in their track season (and not a purely tactical 62/52 race but 3.30 pace of 57/57).
Going back into the past - Snell was a 3.54 miler (he only ran the 1500m at Tokyo '64). At no point in his Olympic build up was he running a 1.57 half. (He ran 1.45 at Tokyo). Each event has its own target pace, depending on the athlete's condition and where they are in the season - but it isn't the pace of a longer (or shorter) event.
I met my onus. SPECIFIC training is typically defined as 95%-105% target race pace.
In modern training, running a 1500m time trial faster than that has less training value and becomes increasingly less desirable.
This is not my argument or goalpost, but a well defined and well known principle, for those with current knowledge.
I feel no obligation to look for what a 1500m runner does since we are talking about 5000m/10000m training.
Snell was an 800m specialist too, so is not a good comparison to a 5000m/10000m runner running 1500m/3000m.
Halberg would be a better comparison. What was Halberg doing in the mile, before track training?
If you want to bring Snell in the picture, we should be talking about what he ran for 800m off of aerobic training, before any track training. Or better yet, 200m or 400m.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
It’s training pace for the shorter distance, and race pace for only the longer distance.
Your question is ridiculous, and you know it.
Your answer is ridiculous. When does a 1.45 runner over 800 set out to run 52 for a quarter?
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
You just shifted the goal posts again. I did not say a 5k specialist should run 1500 in the same region as a 1500 specialist. You lie repeatedly so that you can put the argument on ground where you feel safer.
What you were arguing is that it is "modern training" for a 5k specialist to run 1500 at the same approximate pace as an event twice that distance or even at 5k pace. Garbage.
If I understand you correctly, you think it is garbage. How sad.
It is just sad to hear you keep offering an opinion in a domain where you clearly have no current knowledge.
What you think you said or what I said is not as important as reality: Cheptegei -- a non-specialist -- ran 3:37, at altitude, while specialists -- Centrowitz, Jakob, and Musagala ran 3:35-3:36 for their season openers.
Furthermore, Cheptegei, in his own words, was happy with his pace, because it was his 5000m/10000m pace, and this is good preparation for the Olympics.
These are not my goalposts, or my arguments, or anything else but real numbers from a clock, and real words from Cheptegei -- I'm just a messenger.
With you, the message gets lost in the mail.
Halberg was running a mile as a mile race, not as the 3rd of a 3 mile race. Your delusions verge on insanity.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Sprintgeezer wrote:
It’s training pace for the shorter distance, and race pace for only the longer distance.
Your question is ridiculous, and you know it.
Your answer is ridiculous. When does a 1.45 runner over 800 set out to run 52 for a quarter?
Maybe in April -- three months before the Olympics.
What is ridiculous is to bring in the example of a 800m/1500m specialist.
Your comparison of what an 800m specialist does has nothing to do with what a 5000m/10000m/road specialist does.
Armstronglivs wrote:
With you, the message gets lost in the mail.
Wrong again. I'm the messenger you keep shooting, getting messages by video and internet, and books.
But partly right -- with you, the message does get lost after it is sent.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Halberg was running a mile as a mile race, not as the 3rd of a 3 mile race. Your delusions verge on insanity.
How do you know what Halberg was doing in the mile -- did you talk to him?
Rather than relying on your fungible recollections of what you want to believe, and want us to believe, let's pull out some real facts from the historical archives of 1962, in the words of Arthur Lydiard himself, and see whose "delusions verge on insanity".
In my 1962 copy of "Run to the Top", I can find a schedule for a 3-miler. The Lydiard schedule for the 3-miler 12 weeks before "THE RACE":
Wednesday: Run a mile at half-effort;
Thursday: Run a mile at quarter-effort;
It isn't until 6 weeks before "THE RACE":
Saturday: Compete in a one-mile race.
What is "half-effort" and "quarter-effort" you ask? From the same book, for a 3:55 runner:
half-effort is 4:08, or 13 seconds slower
quarter-effort is 4:15, or 20 seconds slower
So Lydiard would have the 3:30 1500m runner running 3:42-3:43 in April, 12 weeks before the Olympics.
By comparison, Cheptegei ran a 3:37 at altitude. And you are calling it slow.
We can see that even Lydiard 60 years ago wouldn't train his athletes with a mile race, at mile pace, 12 weeks before the Olympics.
Maybe now you can see why I place so much emphasis on facts, and real-world observations.
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Halberg was running a mile as a mile race, not as the 3rd of a 3 mile race. Your delusions verge on insanity.
How do you know what Halberg was doing in the mile -- did you talk to him?
Rather than relying on your fungible recollections of what you want to believe, and want us to believe, let's pull out some real facts from the historical archives of 1962, in the words of Arthur Lydiard himself, and see whose "delusions verge on insanity".
In my 1962 copy of "Run to the Top", I can find a schedule for a 3-miler. The Lydiard schedule for the 3-miler 12 weeks before "THE RACE":
Wednesday: Run a mile at half-effort;
Thursday: Run a mile at quarter-effort;
It isn't until 6 weeks before "THE RACE":
Saturday: Compete in a one-mile race.
What is "half-effort" and "quarter-effort" you ask? From the same book, for a 3:55 runner:
half-effort is 4:08, or 13 seconds slower
quarter-effort is 4:15, or 20 seconds slower
So Lydiard would have the 3:30 1500m runner running 3:42-3:43 in April, 12 weeks before the Olympics.
By comparison, Cheptegei ran a 3:37 at altitude. And you are calling it slow.
We can see that even Lydiard 60 years ago wouldn't train his athletes with a mile race, at mile pace, 12 weeks before the Olympics.
Maybe now you can see why I place so much emphasis on facts, and real-world observations.
I have read Halberg's autobiography. I am familiar with his career. He did not run shorter races as though they were merely a fraction of a longer race. None of Lydiard's stable did.
A race is not interval training for a longer event. It is its own event. One of the obvious reasons for that is that the other competitors are running it as an event, a race - and to win it if they can. Interval training is not a race. A race is its own form of training - if it is training. A shorter event, like a mile for a 3 miler, is not to establish pace for a 3 mile but to build up speed. It is therefore run faster than a 3 mile.
You are wrong, as usual, about Lydiard. The passage you refer to in "Run To The Top" shows you don't even understand what you are reading. A training mile at 3/4 effort, as Lydiard described, is not a mile race. 3/4 effort for a mile is also only as it relates to a mile; it is not 3 mile pace - or intended to be. When Lydiard prescribed a mile race for training he did not say it was interval training or to be run at a given percentage of effort. That was what prior training was for. On that basis, Cheptegei's 3.37 was not interval training for the 5k; it was a 1500 race - and as fast as he was capable of on the day.
It is extraordinary that you believe you are describing Lydiard's training when, even with the words right in front of you, you have it completely screwed up. Your "facts and real observations" have all the intellectual content of a fart. You are clueless about what athletes are actually doing, whether it is in their training or racing. If this board has a village idiot, you are it.
On that basis, Cheptegei's 3.37 was not interval training for the 5k; it was a 1500 race - and as fast as he was capable of on the day.
The conditions were far from perfect. In good conditions, 3:36 - maybe 3:35 - definitely seems possible. But I don't Think he will ever better 3:32.