Hand her the gold medal now - Caster Semenya complete ridiculous 50.76/1:58.46 double in span of 50 minutes

Metric Miler wrote:

The brain dead live. wrote:

Phew, are you friggin brain dead?, it's everything to do with those things and of course people accept a person like Semenya exists otherwise they wouldn't be here posting for FFS. What they don't accept is that someone like Semenya with those issues should be competing against women.

Do you not understand how those things are not performance enhancing? Having a same-sex relationship or being infertile have nothing to do with running about.

Do you not understand though, the issue IS to do with gender identity and looking masculine (which you conveniently left out in your latest reply instead mentioning same-sex/infertility) which is performance enhancing and relevant and do have something to do with running.

Stop being selective and cherry picking, we're discussing running here, you're right "same-sex relationship or being infertile have nothing to do with running" so why mention it FFS, it's irrelevant. Having male characteristics, which she has, is relevant.

Metric Miler wrote:

Close the thread. wrote:

That's it then, close the thread as we have a final definitive conclusion, Semenya is not abusing the system because "she was raised as a girl and always identified as female". Idiot.

What conclusion? It's my opinion you prick.

Read the rest of the post and say something intelligent.

In that case leave the thread open, because your opinion is wrong.

Metric Miler wrote:

Close the thread. wrote:

That's it then, close the thread as we have a final definitive conclusion, Semenya is not abusing the system because "she was raised as a girl and always identified as female". Idiot.

What conclusion? It's my opinion you prick.

Read the rest of the post and say something intelligent.

I think to quote you "It's called sarcasm...", you know that thing that others can't pick up in your posts when they think your just being an idiot.

Metric Miler wrote:

What conclusion? It's my opinion you prick.

Read the rest of the post and say something intelligent.

You're a retard.

The brain dead live. wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:

Do you not understand how those things are not performance enhancing? Having a same-sex relationship or being infertile have nothing to do with running about.

Do you not understand though, the issue IS to do with gender identity and looking masculine (which you conveniently left out in your latest reply instead mentioning same-sex/infertility) which is performance enhancing and relevant and do have something to do with running.

Stop being selective and cherry picking, we're discussing running here, you're right "same-sex relationship or being infertile have nothing to do with running" so why mention it FFS, it's irrelevant. Having male characteristics, which she has, is relevant.

You wrote 'it is everything to do with those things' after I listed some factors such as fertillity etc. If you only meant to pick out 'looking masculine' and 'gender identity' by your word 'things' then please try to use the English language correctly next time to be specific.

Looking masculine is not necessarily performance enhancing or an unfair advantage. The extra T in her body is not necessarily the cause of her muscles. It is completely possible for women to build that kind of muscle mass. It has to be determined with tests as to whether she is unfairly able to gain muscle mass due to her condition. I will add that she might want to lose some upper body mass to be honest because it is unnecessary for the 800m.

Read my long post on the previous page and the included article on how 'advantages' have to be weighed up. And also the post about testosterone.

You have to me more specific than just saying she has masculine external features therefore shouldn't compete with women.

If you seriously think Caster should not compete because of her outward appearance only, regardless of whether these features enhance her performance then I do not think that is in the spirit of the sport. Should we have a beauty contest to decide who reaches the 800m final instead?

This issue is not as simple as you and some other posters are trying to make out. There is a reason medical experts have been flummoxed with what to do.

Metric Miler wrote:

This issue is not as simple as you and some other posters are trying to make out. There is a reason medical experts have been flummoxed with what to do.

+1 to this. Though it is at least useful to get an insight from this thread what the average neanderthal thinks too ;-)

Haha yes I suppose.

Just want to repost something I think some posters here overlooked:

The IAAF put forward its androgen (testosterone) policy apparently in hope of establishing an unambiguous, scientific standard for determining eligibility to participate in women’s athletics events. In many areas of decision making we would love for science to offer us bright lines to separate one side from another.

However, biological sex does not fall neatly into two unambiguous categories, but along a spectrum characterized by shades of grey. The World Health Organization explains, “there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.” As David Epstein writes in The Sports Gene, “neither body parts nor the chromosomes within them unequivocally differentiate male from female athletes.” Science cannot draw a bright line between male and female, because there is no such line.

The IAAF androgen policy would be perfectly acceptable if there was a general consensus on naturally occurring testosterone as a relevant physical characteristic to separate athletes into different competition classes. After all, the logic behind separating out athletes by age, weight and blood oxygen levels is fairly obvious. But there is no such consensus on testosterone.

Ben Koh, chief medical officer at the Commonwealth Bank of Australia, and colleagues observe that a recent study, “found a complete overlap between the testosterone levels in elite men and women, with 16.5% of men with a low testosterone value and 13.7% of women with a high one. “ Imagine if in Rio 2016 the Olympics decided to do away with men’s and women’s events and instead announce the Low-T and High-T categories of competition. It would not go over very well.

From:

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2014/10/20/dutee-chand-science-and-the-spirit-of-sport-why-iaaf-policy-is-deeply-flawed-201001/

just absurd. no one is flummoxed about what to do. Compare these three pictures of by far the fastest woman of all time, who was thought to be taking steroids and/or human growth hormone, carmelita jeter, and semenya. There is absolutely no comparison in muscular development between flo jo and semenya. jeter is about as close as you can get, but as a 100/200 runner, not an 800m runner with an easy 4:10 1500m in a triple with heats in the 400 and 800 before, and jeter was associated with dopers. Semenya is far more muscular than any of her female competitors, and even at lower distances that favor muscularity much more, you don't find a match, not even Carmelita Jeter.

http://america.pink/images/1/5/6/9/6/3/0/en/2-florence-griffith-joyner.jpg%20%20

http://lubbockonline.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/11449630.jpg

http://www.transafricaradio.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/294652-caster-semenya.jpg

trying again on a Flo Jo link:

http://iwasarunner.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Florence-Griffith-Joyce-sprintstar.jpg

Firstly I'd like to say I appreciate your contribution. This post has more substance to it than 'Caster is a man'.

Just a picture I found of Jeter showing she also has a lot of mass.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/37/26/4a/37264ae0e72fd678d4cf4d9c2264f971.jpg

From appearances you could say the testosterone is allowing Caster to have much higher muscle mass than other females. This can only be confirmed with tests. But consider that many female elites have testosterone levels that overlap with elite males.

Not to mention most elite male mid distance runners don't have upper body muscle like Semenya does (maybe Makhloufi). This would suggest she gets her mass from the gym. There are many girls much bigger and stronger than Semenya in professional sport.

On appearances she has more testosterone than other female athletes, and more muscle mass. But then less testosterone than male athletes, and still more muscle mass. I'd run her socks off but lose in an arm wrestle lol.

The experts are flummoxed, which is why the IAAF scientists have not yet been able to present a valid case to the CAS to prove that Semenya actually does have an unfair advantage.

Personally, I feel she may do and do not fully support the CAS ruling as it stands, but CAS ruled based on available research. Testosterone is not a good indicator of performance.

Firstly I'd like to say I appreciate your contribution. This post has more confusion to it than the correct statement 'Caster is a man' and confusion is what I like to post, so I'll post a few more things that have nothing to do with the issue just to try and confuse it even more.

Blah blah blah just to add a few more nonsensical rambling paragraphs about nothing in particular and that have nothing to do with Castor not being a woman.

Here's another one blah blah blah.....

And blah blah blah.... Jeter Voit Makhlaufi Radcliffe Rojo Wejo

Less is more, more is less, half as much is twice as least blah blah blah

I'd lose my socks in a poker game HAHAHA

Testosterone is not a good indicator of performance, and monkeys can't climb trees. Anything else you want to know just ask me and I'll make up more stuff like this, and I'm definitely an expert at this blah blah blaah

Mature.

Testosterone enhancing or not enhancing performance in females is just a side argument. The issue is what defines a female in relation to who can participate in women's athletics. Right now, it seems the only persons not eligible for women's sports is a genetic male who identifies as a male. All others are apparently eligible, at least that seems where we are headed.

If Semenya were raised a male from birth and identified as male as an adult, would she be inelgible to compete with women? Her anatomy would be exactly the same no matter how she was raised and/or identified.

Victor/Victoria wrote:

If Semenya were raised a male from birth and identified as male as an adult, would she be inelgible to compete with women? Her anatomy would be exactly the same no matter how she was raised and/or identified.

How he was raised and/or identified makes NO difference.

The issue is that he's not a woman, and therefore not eligible to compete against women.

Victor/Victoria wrote:

Testosterone enhancing or not enhancing performance in females is just a side argument. The issue is what defines a female in relation to who can participate in women's athletics. Right now, it seems the only persons not eligible for women's sports is a genetic male who identifies as a male. All others are apparently eligible, at least that seems where we are headed.

If Semenya were raised a male from birth and identified as male as an adult, would she be inelgible to compete with women? Her anatomy would be exactly the same no matter how she was raised and/or identified.

Well yes, testosterone is just one avenue of the argument for or against Semenya partaking in women's sport, but one that is being repeated in this thread.

And more importantly it is the one that the IAAF tried to use to exclude Semenya from the sport.

You raise an interesting point. I do not know the answer to that question for certain and I'm not sure anyone does. If she wanted to compete as a male there is nothing stopping her, even now after competing as a female. Gender category switching has been seen before and she wouldn't be required to do anything other than tick a different box.

I think technically if Caster grew up as a man and identified as a male, then decided she wanted to identify as a female and change genders, she would be subject to the gender switching rules which are different. She would be required to undergo hormone therapy to effectively reduce her T levels and raise oestrogen; the same therapy she no longer has to undergo. Ironically.

It is a very good point and highlights the flaws with the system the CAS has effectively ruled for.

I do think however that if there was an intersex athlete raised as a male with mostly male external genitalia but female internal sex organs, CAS might have a harder time accepting this athlete is actually a female.

Maybe the onus should be on the athlete to prove they should compete in the category they want to? Could be unfair on the individual but potentially fairer on everyone else? At least there would be some set rules rather than a hazy ad hoc system.

I also question how good hormone replacement therapy is at bringing a fully biological male that wants to have gender reassignement to compete as a female into line with the other girls.

It seems to me that biologically there is more at work that sets men apart from women than hormones such as testosterone. An example would be the apparent greater endurance of males and lactic tolerance. I am no expert on this matter however.

I have not followed Semenya's entire career but as it comes from this thread, is this the timeline?

First she bursts onto the scene and has a number of amazing times but her times and appearance drew scrutiny. Further testing showed both hormonal and genetic abnormalities? So then when determined that she had to be on hormonal therapy to normalize her testosterone levels to those of the average female, her performances were no longer so outstanding?

Flash forward to current where she no longer has to take any hormonal normalizing treatment and her performances are now becoming exceptional again?

Is that about right?

And the argument is that her genetic condition does not give her a advantage? Somehow, I don't see it.

??!!?? wrote:

I have not followed Semenya's entire career but as it comes from this thread, is this the timeline?

First she bursts onto the scene and has a number of amazing times but her times and appearance drew scrutiny. Further testing showed both hormonal and genetic abnormalities? So then when determined that she had to be on hormonal therapy to normalize her testosterone levels to those of the average female, her performances were no longer so outstanding?

Flash forward to current where she no longer has to take any hormonal normalizing treatment and her performances are now becoming exceptional again?

Is that about right?

And the argument is that her genetic condition does not give her a advantage? Somehow, I don't see it.

It's about right but includes some speculation.

She was indeed tested but results were never made public. There was also never a statement regarding Semenya if she had to undergo treatment (even though it is reasonable to assume so).

??!!?? wrote:

I have not followed Semenya's entire career but as it comes from this thread, is this the timeline?

First she bursts onto the scene and has a number of amazing times but her times and appearance drew scrutiny. Further testing showed both hormonal and genetic abnormalities? So then when determined that she had to be on hormonal therapy to normalize her testosterone levels to those of the average female, her performances were no longer so outstanding?

Flash forward to current where she no longer has to take any hormonal normalizing treatment and her performances are now becoming exceptional again?

Is that about right?

And the argument is that her genetic condition does not give her a advantage? Somehow, I don't see it.

It is about right, but the therapy could easily be argued to not be 'normalising' as much as interfering. An unnatural/unfamiliar hormonal balance is likely to affect a person negatively. Also it wasn't lowered to an average female but to below the male level. The post I made earlier talks about the issue of testosterone in sport and it is not as clear cut as you think. Many elite female cross into the male boundaries and vice versa.

Not to mention that after incredibly scrutiny and bad press her decline in performance could have had something to do with that or any other factors (lots of runners have bad patches) and not the treatment.

It is possible that Semenya is a fantastic athlete regardless of her condition. she has of yet, not run any ridiculous times like 3:50...

An extract from an article on Semenya's hormonal therapy:

In principle, this is about creating a level playing field, but critics have bristled. “There is enormous pressure on sports governing bodies to find a clear, objective way to say this person is male and this person female,” says Dr. Katrina Karkazis, a medical anthropologist at Stanford University, who recently co-wrote a critique of the new policy with Rebecca Jordan-Young in the American Journal of Bioethics. “The problem is that the body doesn’t work this way. No marker is present in all males or females. But they felt it is better to do something, even a wrong thing, even an arbitrary thing, than nothing.”

“Will there be effects [from the treatment]?” asks Jordan-Young. “Yes, possibly tremendous ones. You will have people saying, ‘Oh look, the times are down.’ Well, hell yes they’re down. All productivity will be down after a major disruption to your body’s system.”

Forgot to add she was banned for around a year also which probably had some effect.