Further, that the wr holder in the '90's came from a country subsequently shown to have endemic doping issues, and in an era when doping had become so widespread that the '96 Olympics were described as the "drugs Olympics". Drugs can never be ruled out of discussions about elite and pro running in recent decades but they absolutely loom large in the '90's. To rule it out for Kipketer is to say that as a "clean" athlete he was faster than all the best on EPO in his generation. Color me sceptical on that. The "case" against Coe - who of course wasn't Soviet bloc - is far weaker. As I have also said, if he had doped in some way he wouldn't have had the doping advantages available to athletes in the '90's.
There're a couple things to point out. One would be the impact of EPO on the 800. Most of the huge time drops were demonstrably in the 1500 and up. I suspect if you charted a regression analysis of the 800, you'd see little difference between the 80s, the EPO era, the post EPO test era and so on.
The countries with systematic doping program later on were revealed to be Morocco, Algeria, Spain, Turkey and Russia (there might be more I've forgotten). There're coaches like Jama Aden, who are notorious for doping as well. Kenya has had doping problems, but it has been characterized by investigators to be more random and not led from the top. You're also interchangeably pegging Kipketer as a Kenyan athlete when he resided in Denmark and missed the Olympics due to his allegiance to Denmark (and Kenya not letting him compete). Do we think that same governing body was investing in him with PEDs and/or ensuring he passed tests? Seems like an odd relationship.
Now, if you don't think Coe/Ovett ran against and convincingly beat doped athletes in the 800/1500, I'd say you are being similarly naive. By your same logic you should be skeptical of their accomplishments. Throw in the fact that Great Britain was the middle-distance power of the decade, so all of their athletes were beating possibly doped athletes. Blood doping is full of benefits as are steroids in the right fashion for a middle-distance runner. Maybe it might not be as good as EPO for the 1500 and up, but it would be helpful.
For the record, I don't think either of these two were doping.
What is it to be? You're saying that Moscow was a weak field, yet now you're saying that it's almost impossible to beat doped athletes?
5 out of the top 13 Kenyan 800m runners of 2017 have been suspended. You'd be naieve to think all the other 8 are/were clean. Even more naieve to think the Kenyan running 1:40 when EPO was legal and no testing was clean just because he 'lived in Denmark'.
You mentioned that if Coe had been running 6 or 7 Golden League races in the 1990's in his prime, he might have run .3 seconds faster. In his 1:41.7 he had to move round Konchellah, which cost him probably .3 seconds.
Surely even just the regular racing at close to your maximum potential will make you faster?
What do you think Kipketer would have ran if he was born the same year as Coe, and had precisely two races in his prime to set his pb, both with zero competition?
What is it to be? You're saying that Moscow was a weak field, yet now you're saying that it's almost impossible to beat doped athletes?
5 out of the top 13 Kenyan 800m runners of 2017 have been suspended. You'd be naieve to think all the other 8 are/were clean. Even more naieve to think the Kenyan running 1:40 when EPO was legal and no testing was clean just because he 'lived in Denmark'.
I didn't say that, Armstronglivs did. He's the one with the inconsistent arguments about doping not me.
The second paragraph is a mess. I looked at the top 15 by time in 2017 list and of all the Kenyans I spot 2 who have been banned (Kipyegon Bett, Kiprop). I'd suspect you are trying to cherrypick Kiprop and Manangoi (1500m runners, one of whom was suspended for whereabouts) and went further down the list to Alfred Kipketer (whereabouts). You've also mixed up Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha morphing their story into one person.
What is it to be? You're saying that Moscow was a weak field, yet now you're saying that it's almost impossible to beat doped athletes?
5 out of the top 13 Kenyan 800m runners of 2017 have been suspended. You'd be naieve to think all the other 8 are/were clean. Even more naieve to think the Kenyan running 1:40 when EPO was legal and no testing was clean just because he 'lived in Denmark'.
I didn't say that, Armstronglivs did. He's the one with the inconsistent arguments about doping not me.
The second paragraph is a mess. I looked at the top 15 by time in 2017 list and of all the Kenyans I spot 2 who have been banned (Kipyegon Bett, Kiprop). I'd suspect you are trying to cherrypick Kiprop and Manangoi (1500m runners, one of whom was suspended for whereabouts) and went further down the list to Alfred Kipketer (whereabouts). You've also mixed up Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha morphing their story into one person.
No, you're cherry picking by taking those names out. BTW, slight error on my part - it was 4/10 best Kenyan 800m runners 2017/2018 suspended under anti-doping offences.
You mentioned that if Coe had been running 6 or 7 Golden League races in the 1990's in his prime, he might have run .3 seconds faster. In his 1:41.7 he had to move round Konchellah, which cost him probably .3 seconds.
Surely even just the regular racing at close to your maximum potential will make you faster?
What do you think Kipketer would have ran if he was born the same year as Coe, and had precisely two races in his prime to set his pb, both with zero competition?
.3 to pass a guy? Come on. I said .3-.5, and again Coe made the decision to stop chasing times in the 800 not me. If you want to suggest he should've tried to run a quick time in 1984 in the build-up to LA, you won't get a disagreement from me.
The two times he committed to running as fast as possible he had zero competition and ran 1:41.1 and 1:41.2. Feels like those are a fair reflection of where he was.
No, you're cherry picking by taking those names out. BTW, slight error on my part - it was 4/10 best Kenyan 800m runners 2017/2018 suspended under anti-doping offences.
Coevett, this is what I assume you are doing: Taking two 1500m runners (who ran a spot 800) and going with the bottom 4 from the top 10 list. The top 6 of course have no bans and all are still competing.
Here are the actual best Kenyan runners of 2017-18 (by time): 1. Emmanuel Korir 2. Wycliffe Kinyamal 3. Michael Saruni 4. Jonathan Kitilit 5. Ferguson Rotich 6. Cornelius Tuwei 7. Kipyegon Bett (banned ~ drugs) 8. Elijah Manangoi (1500m runner 2-year ban in 2019 ~ whereabouts) 9. Alfred Kipketer (2-year ban in 2020 ~ whereabouts) 10. Asbel Kiprop (1500m runner ~ EPO ban)
Do people think Kipketer was taking EPO in 1988 when he ran 1:47.0h at age 15? If a Brit did that today the same posters would be projecting 1:39 later in his career.
Do people think Kipketer was taking EPO in 1988 when he ran 1:47.0h at age 15? If a Brit did that today the same posters would be projecting 1:39 later in his career.
Do people think Kipketer was taking EPO in 1988 when he ran 1:47.0h at age 15? If a Brit did that today the same posters would be projecting 1:39 later in his career.
Where did you read that Kipketer ran 1:47.0 age age 15. According to his world athletics profile he ran 1:48 at 17 and 1:46 at 18. Then he spent two seasons running 1:45.
Kipketer's big leap came the next season when he jumped to 1:43. Just around the time EPO was permeating elite athletics
If Coevett had posted something similar to what you just posted....
No, you're cherry picking by taking those names out. BTW, slight error on my part - it was 4/10 best Kenyan 800m runners 2017/2018 suspended under anti-doping offences.
Coevett, this is what I assume you are doing: Taking two 1500m runners (who ran a spot 800) and going with the bottom 4 from the top 10 list. The top 6 of course have no bans and all are still competing.
Here are the actual best Kenyan runners of 2017-18 (by time): 1. Emmanuel Korir 2. Wycliffe Kinyamal 3. Michael Saruni 4. Jonathan Kitilit 5. Ferguson Rotich 6. Cornelius Tuwei 7. Kipyegon Bett (banned ~ drugs) 8. Elijah Manangoi (1500m runner 2-year ban in 2019 ~ whereabouts) 9. Alfred Kipketer (2-year ban in 2020 ~ whereabouts) 10. Asbel Kiprop (1500m runner ~ EPO ban)
So if Jake Wightman was busted, it would say absolutely nothing about the liklihood of British 800m runners doping, so long as only two other British 'real' 800m runners got busted as well (along with 150+ other Brits)?
BTW, 20 Kenyans have been suspended or banned this year.
Then a carrer that go in high and low with not single year of consistency.
So he didn't run a 1500m in 1977 or 1978, but you think a 9 second improvement on his pb in 79 at age 22 is suspicious? Do you want us to list Aouita's progression for you yet again?
And Coe wasn't consistent in 79 or 81 when he was unbeaten?
Even in 76, at the end of the season he gave John Walker a good run and finished just behind David Moorcroft who had finished 5th in the Olympic final a couple of weeks earlier. So he was clearly better than his 3:42/3:58 pbs of that season.
So if Jake Wightman was busted, it would say absolutely nothing about the liklihood of British 800m runners doping, so long as only two other British 'real' 800m runners got busted as well (along with 150+ other Brits)?
BTW, 20 Kenyans have been suspended or banned this year.
Here is the actual equivalent of what you're saying and it would happen over a 4-year span. - Jake Wightman (whereabouts) -Charlie Da'Vall Grice (EPO) -Daniel Rowden (EPO) -Jamie Webb (whereabouts) Would I then assume Max Burgin, Kyle Langford, Ben Pattison, Josh Kerr, Matthew Stonier, Jake Heyward, Neil Gourley and so on were all doping (like you do with every Kenyan)? No, I might be a little more suspicious of it, which I've never said you can't be.
Seb Coe broke 1:45 when he was 20. Kipketer didn't do it until he was 21.
It's 1:44.95 at age 20, 11 months (Coe) It's 1:43.25 at age 21, 7 months (Kipketer).
You're pretty much splitting hairs as Coe's major breakout was over his age 22-24 seasons, whereas Kipketer's was a pretty linear progression from age 21 to 24. Both were good, but not otherworldly from age 18-21.
You mentioned that if Coe had been running 6 or 7 Golden League races in the 1990's in his prime, he might have run .3 seconds faster. In his 1:41.7 he had to move round Konchellah, which cost him probably .3 seconds.
Surely even just the regular racing at close to your maximum potential will make you faster?
What do you think Kipketer would have ran if he was born the same year as Coe, and had precisely two races in his prime to set his pb, both with zero competition?
.3 to pass a guy? Come on. I said .3-.5, and again Coe made the decision to stop chasing times in the 800 not me. If you want to suggest he should've tried to run a quick time in 1984 in the build-up to LA, you won't get a disagreement from me.
The two times he committed to running as fast as possible he had zero competition and ran 1:41.1 and 1:41.2. Feels like those are a fair reflection of where he was.
So how did Kipketer make several failed attempts on the WR in 97 before crushing it?