Guys who can run 5000m in 12:45 simply do not run 800m in a competition, if at all, they do it in training, since they're comparably slow. The fact, that Jakob is doing it in an official setting at all is extraordinary, maybe it gives him an extra thrill or extra competition experience.
Armstronglivs, name anyone who did run 800m under 1:50 and also has 5000m PB better than 12:50.
Farah PBs are 1:48 in 800m and 12:53 in 5000m, but not in the same season, similarly to Lagat. Choge was a 1:44 800m guy but ran 5000m in "only" 13:00. Chelimo was a 13:21 guy in 2012 and ran 1:54 800m.
You seem to be mounting an argument for the ubiquity of doping.
Or just mounting an argument for your extremely low bar for accusing people of doping.
Armstronglivs: "Don't fcking say that he would gain time on better weather and a peak for the contest, and dont mention his competitors lowering their time with 2seconds the week after!!"
Also Armstronglivs: "well since his 800m pr haven't been 1 seconds lower on those 4 meets he has attended he must be doping. This 1500m specialist just doesn’t perform equally good in the distance he isn't training and competing in, so something must be wrong!"
I would suggest 1.48 is only plenty for a 3.28 runner if they are doped to the gills.
I love how you can be accused for doping by NOT performing to a high standard.
Hopefully the next 1500m phenom has spent their teenage years as a 800m runner to get to a satisfactory level. Maybe they should do a season where they focus on the 800. If they are a 1500/5000 runner maybe they should do both, just to make sure!
By the way, you have called everyone in this thread "stupid". We all think our part regarding things like projection etc.. Did you watch 1500m in the olympics? Accepting his loss, Cherry It was graceful and gave J.I a bracelet. Food for thought.
On several occasions in this thread I wrote, JI has run just two times the 800m in four seasons. I just realised THIS WAS WRONG. Don't you get this? I clarified it because it was wrong. Regardless which argument is supported by the clarification. Something obviously unheard for you.
If I found that JI has run a (for what ever reason not publicly known) 1:42, do you think I would hide it to "support" something? I'm not writing a single word just to support "my argument". I'm only interested in the truth.
Btw, this 1:48 at the Norwegian Champs (hardly a time trial) doesn't "support" any argument in this issue at all.
You are good at admitting error in what is irrelevant. It doesn't matter exactly how many times he has run. It is the times he has run. You may have had no reason for referring to his 1.48 race but it does tend to back my view, though you are unable to see or acknowledge that. What if he ran 1.58? That would mean nothing, either?
This 1:48 race obviously is completely irrelevant for any argument made. I just try to be correct in the things I write. If I realise I was wrong on something, I just correct it, even if it's irrelevant for the main discussion. You don't have to like this.
As written severel times now, I also think JI is "slow" over 800m and I don't expect him ever to break 1:45 (even if he tries - which he probably will not).
But I don't try to argue the reason for this is doping and for me it's just obvious that his very few 800m races are not a good opportunity to predict his capabilities.
Yes, a win in 1:58 at the Norwegian Champs would mean nothing. What a nonsensical question.
I love how you can be accused for doping by NOT performing to a high standard.
Hopefully the next 1500m phenom has spent their teenage years as a 800m runner to get to a satisfactory level. Maybe they should do a season where they focus on the 800. If they are a 1500/5000 runner maybe they should do both, just to make sure!
By the way, you have called everyone in this thread "stupid". We all think our part regarding things like projection etc.. Did you watch 1500m in the olympics? Accepting his loss, Cherry It was graceful and gave J.I a bracelet. Food for thought.
Guys who can run 5000m in 12:45 simply do not run 800m in a competition, if at all, they do it in training, since they're comparably slow. The fact, that Jakob is doing it in an official setting at all is extraordinary, maybe it gives him an extra thrill or extra competition experience.
Armstronglivs, name anyone who did run 800m under 1:50 and also has 5000m PB better than 12:50.
Farah PBs are 1:48 in 800m and 12:53 in 5000m, but not in the same season, similarly to Lagat. Choge was a 1:44 800m guy but ran 5000m in "only" 13:00. Chelimo was a 13:21 guy in 2012 and ran 1:54 800m.
You seem to be mounting an argument for the ubiquity of doping.
Again, where is your science, man? It's not enough to "think" somebody is doping, such public claims are called defamation of character.
Just for once in the history of your presence on letsrun provide a substantial source that could prove any of your doping claims.
Unlike you, I myself was a sub-elite 1500m runner and can tell you that there are different types of runners. The speedy ones sucked in long distance (like me) and the others where killing in in 3000m, 5000m and XC, but sucked in sprints and anything under 1000m.
We had a guy on our team that ran 47s 400m, 1:46 800m and 3:57 1500m. Another guy was a 13:45 5000m guy, who ran a 3:56 1500m. Was fun competing against these two in 1500m, as that was the only distance I could beat them in.
Since there is really nothing to add I will vacate the ground. I did find one poster who offered an informed and intelligent response in Thoughtsleader but he left the pack far behind.
Since there is really nothing to add I will vacate the ground. I did find one poster who offered an informed and intelligent response in Thoughtsleader but he left the pack far behind.
Wow you have finally conceded defeat. Progress is being made.
You can see that Armstrong gets aroused as he thinks he has one upped another poster but the joke is on him. He is not even a good troll.
Dude Armstronglivs just doesn't get tired. It's impressive.
I find the most hilarious part is his inability to admit that Cherry-It is a quite stupid assumption on how to pronounce Cheruiyots name. Yes it is petty, and that is the point. How easy wouldn't it be for anyone to admit they were obviously wrong as it wouldn't matter for anything, instead of just digging their heels in further. Chances for him to listen to himself when he was saying that you shouldn't do any assumptions about J.I's 800m time is 0%. Chances for him to respond to everyone pointing out that not everyone is a great 800m runner, but maybe is more 5000m inclined is 0%. Armstronglvs has great stamina but lack both speed and punching power in his arguments. 0/0 obviously doped to the gills.
Then you appear to be agreeing with me that his 800 performances show he isn't fast. Perhaps you could respond to my earlier point, of how does a runner who is slower than the record-holders of the '60's and 70's run far superior times than they did over the longer distance (up to 8 secs) when they also trained to their limits?
Your questions are easily answered. Anyone with minimum coaching skills and a history of the evolution of performances can tell you:
1) Jakob's 800m is comparatively slow, because he doesn't race the 800m often, so likely hasn't demonstrated his true 800m potential.
2) The longer distances of the runners from the '60s and '70s are also comparatively slow, for a combination of many reasons: i) significant advances in training at longer distances in the last 50 years; ii) specialization of athletes/events today, compared to the '60s and '70s; iii) comparing Jakob, a 1500m/5000m specialist, with 800yd/mile specialists of the past; iv) faster tracks; and v) faster shoes.
Your suggestion that Jakob's 800m is unusually slow, and his endurance is unusually high, is a pure artifact of assuming his 800m performance can be compared to his longer distances, and assuming that we can compare runners of today with runners of the '60s and '70s
If we have two comparable performances from one athlete, we can characterize these performances with two parameters: speed and endurance, using a formula that is similar, but more generalized, to Horwill's 4-second rule. Horwill had a rule of thumb that runners slow down 4 seconds per lap, each time you double the distance. If you have bad endurance, this slowdown will be higher. If you have good endurance, like Geb, Bekele, and Carlos Lopes, the slowdown may be as low as 3 seconds or even less.
If we curve fit Jakob's more mature 1500m and 5000m performances, this is characterized by a 400m speed of 49.05 seconds, and 1:44.92 for 800m, with a 3.41 second slowdown per lap, as the distance doubles. This is good endurance, but not off the charts, and quite reasonable for an elite athlete like Jakob who is a 1500m/5000m specialist. When you compare these results with his real 400m record of 51.03 seconds, (at almost 16 years of age), and 1:46.44 (at almost 20 years of age), then 49.05s and 1:44.92, don't seem all that unrealistic, all else being equal.
Performing a similar exercise across the board, from 400m to 10000m, reveals that, in addition to the 400m/800m being unrealized, his mile, 3000m, and 10000m times are comparatively slow. Based on the 1500m and 5000m, at the same performance level, he should be capable of 3:44.9 for the mile, 7:22.2 for 3000m, and 27:02.3 for the 10000m.
Since there is really nothing to add I will vacate the ground. I did find one poster who offered an informed and intelligent response in Thoughtsleader but he left the pack far behind.
Wow you have finally conceded defeat. Progress is being made.
Nope. It's just that there's nothing to be gained from wrestling with a pig in the muck. I'll get covered in muck. And the pig likes it.
Then you appear to be agreeing with me that his 800 performances show he isn't fast. Perhaps you could respond to my earlier point, of how does a runner who is slower than the record-holders of the '60's and 70's run far superior times than they did over the longer distance (up to 8 secs) when they also trained to their limits?
Your questions are easily answered. Anyone with minimum coaching skills and a history of the evolution of performances can tell you:
1) Jakob's 800m is comparatively slow, because he doesn't race the 800m often, so likely hasn't demonstrated his true 800m potential.
2) The longer distances of the runners from the '60s and '70s are also comparatively slow, for a combination of many reasons: i) significant advances in training at longer distances in the last 50 years; ii) specialization of athletes/events today, compared to the '60s and '70s; iii) comparing Jakob, a 1500m/5000m specialist, with 800yd/mile specialists of the past; iv) faster tracks; and v) faster shoes.
Your suggestion that Jakob's 800m is unusually slow, and his endurance is unusually high, is a pure artifact of assuming his 800m performance can be compared to his longer distances, and assuming that we can compare runners of today with runners of the '60s and '70s
If we have two comparable performances from one athlete, we can characterize these performances with two parameters: speed and endurance, using a formula that is similar, but more generalized, to Horwill's 4-second rule. Horwill had a rule of thumb that runners slow down 4 seconds per lap, each time you double the distance. If you have bad endurance, this slowdown will be higher. If you have good endurance, like Geb, Bekele, and Carlos Lopes, the slowdown may be as low as 3 seconds or even less.
If we curve fit Jakob's more mature 1500m and 5000m performances, this is characterized by a 400m speed of 49.05 seconds, and 1:44.92 for 800m, with a 3.41 second slowdown per lap, as the distance doubles. This is good endurance, but not off the charts, and quite reasonable for an elite athlete like Jakob who is a 1500m/5000m specialist. When you compare these results with his real 400m record of 51.03 seconds, (at almost 16 years of age), and 1:46.44 (at almost 20 years of age), then 49.05s and 1:44.92, don't seem all that unrealistic, all else being equal.
Performing a similar exercise across the board, from 400m to 10000m, reveals that, in addition to the 400m/800m being unrealized, his mile, 3000m, and 10000m times are comparatively slow. Based on the 1500m and 5000m, at the same performance level, he should be capable of 3:44.9 for the mile, 7:22.2 for 3000m, and 27:02.3 for the 10000m.
I must say, as I go, that it isn't a good sign for anyone who could be suspected of doping that rekrunner is on their side. Salazar, Houlihan etc - he's so determined to be on the right side of history in these things.
I must say, as I go, that it isn't a good sign for anyone who could be suspected of doping that rekrunner is on their side. Salazar, Houlihan etc - he's so determined to be on the right side of history in these things.
Wait -- is someone actually suspected of doping? Is that real or imaginary?
I thought you could use the help with math, because you are more "law background" (sic) than math.
You seem to be mounting an argument for the ubiquity of doping.
Again, where is your science, man? It's not enough to "think" somebody is doping, such public claims are called defamation of character.
Just for once in the history of your presence on letsrun provide a substantial source that could prove any of your doping claims.
Unlike you, I myself was a sub-elite 1500m runner and can tell you that there are different types of runners. The speedy ones sucked in long distance (like me) and the others where killing in in 3000m, 5000m and XC, but sucked in sprints and anything under 1000m.
We had a guy on our team that ran 47s 400m, 1:46 800m and 3:57 1500m. Another guy was a 13:45 5000m guy, who ran a 3:56 1500m. Was fun competing against these two in 1500m, as that was the only distance I could beat them in.
You won't ever get the science or any substantial source from Armstronglivs, just allegations, readings from his own gospels, occasional advice to do your own research, combined with arrogance, and condescencion.
The fact is that good science showing doping improving elite performance is pretty scarce. I would love to see the best examples.
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