Having a Y-chromosome is not the only male characteristic.
Does the dude have an SRY-gene?
Having a Y-chromosome is not the only male characteristic.
Does the dude have an SRY-gene?
Y = male characteristics wrote:
Metric Miler wrote:If Chand does not have male characteristics
Does he have a Y-chromosome?
I see absolutely no reason for you to refer to that woman as a 'he'.
Metric Miler wrote:
Semenya has ... androgen hyperinsensitivity syndrome...
1. Post a reference to this syndrome. I find NONE for HYPERINsensitivity. Where are you coming up with the hyper?
2. Post a link to anything that says Semenya has Androgen "HyperInsensitivity" syndrome.
Metric Miler wrote:
Y = male characteristics wrote:Does he have a Y-chromosome?
I see absolutely no reason for you to refer to that woman as a 'he'.
Why don't you answer the question about that man instead?
Relax, you don't need to admit that I'm right. It's obvious for anyone to see that you're a clown. We all know that this dude and Caster, and all the other men competing against real women have Y-chromosomes or other male genetic characteristics. These men are just like the Sleazy Sal. Exploiting weaknesses in the system to grab money and fame from honest ahtletes.
An excerpt regarding testosterone from a very interesting article on this matter:
The IAAF put forward its androgen (testosterone) policy apparently in hope of establishing an unambiguous, scientific standard for determining eligibility to participate in women’s athletics events. In many areas of decision making we would love for science to offer us bright lines to separate one side from another.
However, biological sex does not fall neatly into two unambiguous categories, but along a spectrum characterized by shades of grey. The World Health Organization explains, “there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.†As David Epstein writes in The Sports Gene, “neither body parts nor the chromosomes within them unequivocally differentiate male from female athletes.†Science cannot draw a bright line between male and female, because there is no such line.
The IAAF androgen policy would be perfectly acceptable if there was a general consensus on naturally occurring testosterone as a relevant physical characteristic to separate athletes into different competition classes. After all, the logic behind separating out athletes by age, weight and blood oxygen levels is fairly obvious. But there is no such consensus on testosterone.
Ben Koh, chief medical officer at the Commonwealth Bank of Australia, and colleagues observe that a recent study, “found a complete overlap between the testosterone levels in elite men and women, with 16.5% of men with a low testosterone value and 13.7% of women with a high one. “ Imagine if in Rio 2016 the Olympics decided to do away with men’s and women’s events and instead announce the Low-T and High-T categories of competition. It would not go over very well.
I'll add that chromosome testing is even more flawed and complicated.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16934-girl-with-y-chromosome-sheds-light-on-maleness/
I guess you play one on TV? wrote:
Metric Miler wrote:Semenya has ... androgen hyperinsensitivity syndrome...
1. Post a reference to this syndrome. I find NONE for HYPERINsensitivity. Where are you coming up with the hyper?
2. Post a link to anything that says Semenya has Androgen "HyperInsensitivity" syndrome.
I apologise, she has hyperandrogenism as a result of a condition called androgen insensitivity syndrome.
Please research yourself on the latter, it's all over the internet I cannot be bothered to Google for you.
I'm amazed that so many people on here just want to believe she is a man and disregard all the clear science on intersex people. She literally is not a man according to experts that know far more than any of you including me.
Really some of you are just so against the existence of intersex people that you refute it beyond scientific reasoning. Sex is a continuum I'm sorry if that goes against what you learned from the Bible.
Y = male characteristics wrote:
Metric Miler wrote:I see absolutely no reason for you to refer to that woman as a 'he'.
Why don't you answer the question about that man instead?
Relax, you don't need to admit that I'm right. It's obvious for anyone to see that you're a clown. We all know that this dude and Caster, and all the other men competing against real women have Y-chromosomes or other male genetic characteristics. These men are just like the Sleazy Sal. Exploiting weaknesses in the system to grab money and fame from honest ahtletes.
Of course Dutee Chand is not a man.
Whether she should be allowed to compete with women in the sport of athletics is a different, complex matter which if you care to read the article from Sporting Intelligence that I posted, then you would be just about informed enough to speak to me.
Y = male characteristics wrote:
Having a Y-chromosome is not the only male characteristic.
Does the dude have an SRY-gene?
Thanks for providing further clarification. So a female is someone without a Y -chromosome and no SRY -gene? Got it, such an eloquent yet simple definition. So apparently this dude(
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/4/717) with his normal male testosterone levels, average penis, facial hair, and masculine build could have competed in women's competitions.
rhizomes wrote:
Y = male characteristics wrote:Having a Y-chromosome is not the only male characteristic.
Does the dude have an SRY-gene?
Thanks for providing further clarification. So a female is someone without a Y -chromosome and no SRY -gene? Got it, such an eloquent yet simple definition. So apparently this dude(
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/4/717) with his normal male testosterone levels, average penis, facial hair, and masculine build could have competed in women's competitions.
These posters have their minds set before entering the discussion. To them this is all 'PC bullsh*t' and that there are factors that make it easy to determine between classic male and female that scientists are ignoring not to hurt anyone's feelings.
Except science doesn't care about feelings. And it is saying there is no clear distinction.
I don't think anyone is disregarding the clear science on intersex people. I also apologize if I sounded insensitive, and I'll call her she because that is what she identifies as. Most people on this board, including myself, agree with you that she has both male and female characteristics. The purpose of my post was focusing on what she has more of and whether her male characteristics are giving her an advantage? Looking at her case, she has a male physique, male hormone levels, male testes, and most likely a male genotype. Shouldn't this put her on the more male side of the gender spectrum? Is her vagina the only thing keeping her from being classified as a male? Also the "insensitivity" people are showing isn't specifically directed at intersex people, it is more directed at someone that is potentially taking advantage of a system that divides its race format into two categories, male and female. So using the gender spectrum, and given the fact that she has multiple male characteristics (like I pointed out) is she on the male side of the spectrum? She definitely isn't closer to the female side of the spectrum.
In my opinion we have three options. Option 1: we need to decide which side of the spectrum she lies closer to and place her in a race with the gender that exhibits the majority of her physical traits (In my opinion it's male). Option 2: create a third category in track and field for intersex people and allow them to compete only against each other. Lastly, if the gender lines are really that blurred, get rid of male/female races and combine them into one race (although I'm pretty sure half of the population won't be too happy about this).
If you decide to respond, please give a specific example of why you think I am wrong and include her female traits/evidence that you would like to use to counter my argument. Also if you could avoid questioning my intelligence, insulting me, and projecting your own perceived intelligence/ occupation/political affiliation/or any other notion of self importance, I would greatly appreciate it. Cheers
Metric Miler wrote:
No I'm asking you, you said Chand should not compete in the female category. If Chand does not have male characteristics, act like a man, look like a man and satisfy other simplistic criteria you offered then she should be allowed to compete with other women surely?
http://s3.amazonaws.com/media.wbur.org/wordpress/10/files/2014/10/1010_oag_dutee-chand-cropped.jpg
But she does, which is why she shouldn't compete in the female category. Not hard to understand.
Finally, a well thought out and useful addition to the discussion. I thank you for this post and hope others can follow suit. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be discussed, and is devoid of insults towards the athlete in question.
It may surprise you that I do not think you are wrong, and disagreement is not my default response; I am not arguing for the sake of it. Maybe I was getting a little frustrated at posters hurling insults at Semenya who isn't here to defend herself, and not thinking critically to enable a proper discussion.
I think that it has to be determined on an individual basis, such as whether Caster has more male characteristics that enhance her performance above which could be attained by a typical female through training. Characteristics she possesses have to firstly be determined to be as a result of her condition, secondly performance enhancing, and thirdly determined to be unfair with regards to the ethics of the sport.
Caster has an impressive muscular physique for example; maybe the testosterone in her body helps build this, maybe it is just the result of training (many women can attain muscular physiques), maybe it is a bit of both. This has to be determined and the fairness of it decided. (I must add that I run a lot faster than her, have more T and don't look anything like that!)
The gender lines really are blurred. Especially with regards to T. In the article I posted it talks about how T levels across elite athletes overlap quite significantly across males and females.
Something has to be sorted out for sure. The system as it stands may well be open to abuse for a start (I do not think Caster is doing this, she was raised as a girl and always identified as female).
Personally, I would not like to see an open category where all sexes compete together.
A third category may work but you still have the issue of determining what constitutes intersex, maybe further complicating the matter.
A case by case review may remain the best option for the sport as it has limited far-reaching consequences. CAS may have prevented that from being possible, however, with their blunt ruling which tries to pretend there is no issue to discuss and that the IAAF were simply being grotesque.
Metric Miler wrote:
I have repeatedly said the issue is nothing to do with gender identity or 'looking masculine' or the ability to bear childer or the sexual preference of Semenya, all these ridiculous ideas put forward by posters that frankly cannot accept that a person like Semenya exists.
Phew, are you friggin brain dead?, it's everything to do with those things and of course people accept a person like Semenya exists otherwise they wouldn't be here posting for FFS. What they don't accept is that someone like Semenya with those issues should be competing against women.
Metric Miler wrote:
I have repeatedly said the issue is nothing to do with gender identity or 'looking masculine' or the ability to bear childer or the sexual preference of Semenya, all these ridiculous ideas put forward by posters that frankly cannot accept that a person like Semenya exists.
Metric Miler wrote:
The system as it stands may well be open to abuse for a start (I do not think Caster is doing this, she was raised as a girl and always identified as female).
That's it then, close the thread as we have a final definitive conclusion, Semenya is not abusing the system because "she was raised as a girl and always identified as female". Idiot.
The brain dead live. wrote:
Phew, are you friggin brain dead?, it's everything to do with those things and of course people accept a person like Semenya exists otherwise they wouldn't be here posting for FFS. What they don't accept is that someone like Semenya with those issues should be competing against women.
She's a man, man.
Close the thread. wrote:
Metric Miler wrote:The system as it stands may well be open to abuse for a start (I do not think Caster is doing this, she was raised as a girl and always identified as female).
That's it then, close the thread as we have a final definitive conclusion, Semenya is not abusing the system because "she was raised as a girl and always identified as female". Idiot.
What conclusion? It's my opinion you prick.
Read the rest of the post and say something intelligent.
The brain dead live. wrote:
Metric Miler wrote:I have repeatedly said the issue is nothing to do with gender identity or 'looking masculine' or the ability to bear childer or the sexual preference of Semenya, all these ridiculous ideas put forward by posters that frankly cannot accept that a person like Semenya exists.
Phew, are you friggin brain dead?, it's everything to do with those things and of course people accept a person like Semenya exists otherwise they wouldn't be here posting for FFS. What they don't accept is that someone like Semenya with those issues should be competing against women.
Do you not understand how those things are not performance enhancing? Having a same-sex relationship or being infertile have nothing to do with running about.
