Minimalist, what was your experience?

Just to jump in, you might want to check out the Mizuno Wave Revolver. It has a lot more volume than the 900 or DS Trainer. There is no post, but the thin wave gives a little integrity. It rides quite low as well (18:9 heel:forefoot, I beleive).

Elford, You reduce the volume simply to allow for the body to adjust safely

But why would a small change, such as using flats once a week, require, as trackhead argues, a significant reduction in volume ? I mean, you don't cut back to 50% of your training volume when you start doing speed work, do you ?

Just like when you take a week or so off from running you don't just go out and run the same amount as when you stopped or you will be at a greater risk of overuse injury.

What I am proposing is not analogous to going from complete rest to full blown peak training, so I don't understand the relevance of this analogy. Going from 70 miles a week in trainers to 65 miles /week in trainers + 5 miles a week in flats, to 60+10 to 50+20 is not a radical change, it's an incremental change. I don't understand the perceived need to adopt a "flats only" religion from the get-go.

elflord wrote:

I don't understand the perceived need to adopt a "flats only" religion from the get-go.

Neither do I.

I'm talking about reduced volume and 100% of it is in the racing shoes. Here are some different approaches:

1) Injured runner -- building back up from zero, starting out at very very little and going back up, all in flats

2) Healthy runner, with lots of time -- this runner can afford to cut his volume drastically because there is no season/race that he/she is sacrificing. So they can go from 80 to 30 mi/wk and build back.

3) Healthy runner in serious training -- you don't want to mess with this very much at all. For someone in high level training, a sudden switch would a be disasterous (as demonstrated by several posters on this thread). The best thing to do is do a few short runs in flats weekly (1-2x 20-30min jogs) on soft surfaces, and 2-3 times per week, get out on grass and jog for 10-15min and build up from there. This is huge on all levels and does wonders for teaching proper technique and increasing strength.

I heard the 900 works well for wider feet so I am going to look into that. I'll take a look at the Revolver if I can find. I liked the ds trainers, but my heals sliped quite a bit and I could feel them going up and down.

I don't notice much difference in the height or ride between the ds trainer and the revolver. The revolver is definitely wider in the forefoot and seems to have a little more depth/security to hold the heel. Happy Shopping

The revolver isn't a whole lot of shoe -- in terms of weight claim, it's the same as the fastwitch, but it actually looks lighter (and 18:9 is pretty thin even for a flat). You could probably wear it for your fast workouts, but it is more of a "true minimalist shoe" than the other alternatives you're looking at.

elflord, have you run in the Wave Aero? Would you train in it?

elflord wrote:

The revolver isn't a whole lot of shoe -- in terms of weight claim, it's the same as the fastwitch, but it actually looks lighter (and 18:9 is pretty thin even for a flat). You could probably wear it for your fast workouts, but it is more of a "true minimalist shoe" than the other alternatives you're looking at.

A truly minimal shoe would be the Puma H Street's. Most of the current racing shoes by Nike/Adidas/Mizuno/Asics all have a 1 inch heel and 1/2inch of forefoot cushioning. This is more than enough cushion for a biomechanically efficient runner. Being light weight is a good thing.

Elford, you are making your basis of how much cushioning one should need based on a injury that most likely had nothing to do with the shoe that you were wearing while you sustained a stress fracture. The most logical reason for your stress fracture was the hard training you were doing, not the amount of cushioning under your foot.

Elford/Johnston and all others that are concerned about metatarsal Stress Fractures:

A stress fracture is a break in a bone cause by repetitive stress. It may occur in any bone, but is quite common in the metatarsal bones of the foot. There is often no recollection of injury. The patient may simply develop a painful forefoot after some activity, such a walking, sports, or stooping down onto the ball of the foot. A small crack develops in the cortex (outer shell) of the bone. Without proper treatment, this may progress to a "through and through" (overt) fracture of the bone. The second and third metatarsals are the most commonly affected. Metatarsal stress fracture may not become apparent on x-rays until a few weeks after the injury.

Symptoms

Sharp pain in the forefoot, aggravated by walking

Tenderness to pressure on the top surface of a metatarsal bone.

Diffuse swelling of the skin over the forefoot.

Causes

Decreased density of the bones (eg. osteoporosis)

Unusual stress on a metatarsal due to malposition or another forefoot deformity (eg. bunion)

Abnormal foot structure or mechanics (eg. flatfoot)

Increased levels of activity, especially without proper conditioning

Obesity

What you can do

Seek professional help as soon as possible

Keep weight off the foot

Ice the top surface of the forefoot for about 20 minuets every hour.

To reduce swelling, wrap the foot in a tensor bandage with moderate compression.

Wear a shoe with a very stiff sole.

What the doctor may do

Take x-rays to look for fracture

Order special diagnostic bone scans to establish a questionable diagnosis

Apply orthopedic taping and padding to relieve stress from the metatarsals.

Dispense a surgical/ trauma shoe to splint the foot.

Prescribe medication for pain and inflammation.

Use physical therapy in the later stages of healing.

Occasionally a plaster cast is necessary.

Other causes of forefoot pain

Morton's neuroma (benign tumor of a nerve running between the metatarsals)

Metatarsalgia (painful and inflammation of the metatarsal bones and their soft tissue sheath)

Capsulitis (painful and inflammation of the joints between the metatarsal bones and toes)

Tendonitis (inflammation of the tendons which course along the top of the foot)

Dislocation of a joint between a metatarsal and a toe (metatarsal-phalangeal joint)

Severe plantar callus(callus on bottom of the foot) or bursitis(an inflamed fluid-filled sac often between a bone and an area of pressure)

The only references to adding padding to the foot are after one has a diagnoses of a stress fracture and this is obviously useful to aid in healing. So the point I am trying to make is that one can not expect to prevent a stress fracture by simply wearing a little more padding in their shoes. Like I have suggested before the whole idea that one needs the padding of today's regular training shoes is just speculation/observation by some people which I clearly disagree with because of my own personal observation and other conflicting research that has already been verified.

elflord, have you run in the Wave Aero? Would you train in it?

I haven't tried it. It looks way too beefy for a speed shoe, but I would consider using it as a daily trainer (if I could get it cheap). For now, I'm using the precision.

Elford, you are making your basis of how much cushioning one should need based on a injury

No, the basis for my comments on that shoe is that "ghostracers" has stated elsewhere that he wants either a flat in the 9oz range, or one of the lighter stability trainers (like DS RAcer or NB900). He said that he is concerned that the fastwitch is too light. Even though the weight claim is the same, I think the revolver looks like less shoe than the fastwitch. You know, I listen to the guy instead of jumping in to offer "advice" without knowing anything about the guy I'm offering it to, and without trying to sell him on a new religion. The revolver looks like a fine shoe, but someone who wants a 9oz shoe does not want the Mizuno Revolver.

elflord wrote:

Elford, you are making your basis of how much cushioning one should need based on a injury

No, the basis for my comments on that shoe is that "ghostracers" has stated elsewhere that he wants either a flat in the 9oz range, or one of the lighter stability trainers (like DS RAcer or NB900). He said that he is concerned that the fastwitch is too light. Even though the weight claim is the same, I think the revolver looks like less shoe than the fastwitch. You know, I listen to the guy instead of jumping in to offer "advice" without knowing anything about the guy I'm offering it to, and without trying to sell him on a new religion. The revolver looks like a fine shoe, but someone who wants a 9oz shoe does not want the Mizuno Revolver.

My remarks were not just based on you answering Ghost racer question, it was based on your earlier posts on the subject of recommending certain shoes to people based on your perceived idea that the amount of cushion in the forefoot is going to protect someone from metatarsal stress fractures.

And by the way I have helped people with their shoe choices on a daily basis for the past 4 years, and I do look at their biomechanical needs. At the present time I video and anylize customers so that they can understand how their shoe choice can effect their biomechanical efficiency. You keep referring to the idea of less cushioning as some kind of cult religion when most of the posters on this topic have only resently began to rethink the relationship of how much should they require. I HAVE ONLY BEEN WEARING FLATS FOR 6 MONTHS NOW!!! I have been researching/observing/putting much thought into how shoes effect the body so I can better help myself and other customers find the shoe that is going to allow more positive than negatives for their bodies.

Too much analysis. Just TRY minimalist shoes. I believe the trackhead philosophy because I have not had a single soleus, achilles or heel problem since I switched. Before that, I was hobbling every 3 months or so it seemed. I still mix in a light trainer for long runs.

So, TRY IT instead of analyzing every damn thing here. TRY A PAIR for a half-dozen runs. If they don't make your legs, calves and achilles and heel feel better, move to a lightweight trainer full-time. You are not going to be permanently disabled. Everyone is not the same, so they may not work for you. But I don't see a down-side for trying except for some sore calves (which everyone seems to get when switching).

My remarks were not just based on you answering Ghost racer question, it was based on your earlier posts on the subject of recommending certain shoes to people based on your perceived idea that the amount of cushion in the forefoot is going to protect someone from metatarsal stress fractures.

I can't address this unless you specifically quote what you're addressing. Because I don't know, specifically, what you are talking about. If you could post a relevant quote, I can address it. Otherwise, I can't (well, I could address it by dismissing your claim as unsubstantiated nonsense, but I doubt that you would find that satisfactory.)