The Canadian Running Thread

Skuj wrote:

pre32 wrote:

No accomplishments, sorry. I'm still trying to build my own running career.

Please give some proof of these performances.

Hahahahahahaha....

So not only do you have nothing, although you dissed me as a coach, but now, (snicker), as a registered user, I must provide some kind of "proof" to you, in order to please/satisfy you, ....and you expect me (and others) to respond to all of your posts!!

UNF***INGBELIEVEABLE.

Pre32, this discussion would actually be much more constructive without you.

Email me, bitch!

Other than embarrassing yourself in the Bariu disscussion, you've just repeated the same thing over and over (AC's giving up on distance running), and now you're attacking me instead of addressing the points Ron and others brought up. all of which disagree with you. Yet I'm the one the conversation would be better without. Aside from the odd jab at you, which have all been well-deserved, I think I've brought up some pretty good points.

Grow up buddy.

Nice cover-up/diversion tactic! Well done. "Attacking you" am I? Remember "douchbag" and how that coaching discussion began? "Odd jab"? Hahahaha. You are the biggest hypocrite I ever came across at letsrun, and that is saying something.I'm batting 333 for Bairu, and maybe I'll be 666 later this year. Then I'll start bumping some of your posts again. BTW, it was all lies about the 2xNational Jr Champs 5000, and those other times in the 1500m. Yes, I made it all up. Ya got me. Ron, et al, I can't stand this anymore, hahaha....I'm taking a break from this pathetic thread. Promise!!! I'll give myself 20 days, and see how things are on Jun 1st.

pre32 wrote:

Skuj wrote:

Hahahahahahaha....

So not only do you have nothing, although you dissed me as a coach, but now, (snicker), as a registered user, I must provide some kind of "proof" to you, in order to please/satisfy you, ....and you expect me (and others) to respond to all of your posts!!

UNF***INGBELIEVEABLE.

Pre32, this discussion would actually be much more constructive without you.

Email me, bitch!

Other than embarrassing yourself in the Bariu disscussion, you've just repeated the same thing over and over (AC's giving up on distance running), and now you're attacking me instead of addressing the points Ron and others brought up. all of which disagree with you. Yet I'm the one the conversation would be better without. Aside from the odd jab at you, which have all been well-deserved, I think I've brought up some pretty good points.

Grow up buddy.

Thank god.FYI, you said Bariu would break 3 national records this year. He hasn't. Therefore you are batting .000, and will be until he breaks all 3. And, yes, 2 jabs in - I'm gunna guess - 20 posts would be the 'odd jab'.

PS - I like how you still dodged making any real statements ahahahah.

How sad for Canadian distance running that we can't seem to evolve past this level of discussion - really sad...I sense there are some fundamental principles that most of the contributors to this thread could agree on, but the negative energy from a few keeps taking over....

If you want to send me a personal e-mail, I am cool with that. And I will send you a document or so about he with the said "initials". And I also understand if you're not up to that...

All the best, on behalf of Canadian Distance Running

Ron Bowker

rsb wrote:

How sad for Canadian distance running that we can't seem to evolve past this level of discussion - really sad...I sense there are some fundamental principles that most of the contributors to this thread could agree on, but the negative energy from a few keeps taking over....

This is the thing that annoys me the most. Do you honestly this thread will make a difference in Canadian distance running?

As I said now that Skuj is gone I think a decent discussion can be held.

Someone asked this previously and it still has not been answered. Would you like to take a crack at it?

Say you are one of these 'highly paid bureaucrats' who has a pool of X amount of dollars to support 'high performance' sport in Canada, across something like three dozen summer and winter sports.

How do you decide how much to give and who to give it to? What criteria do you use, let alone one that can be defended to politicians and the general public at large who would rather sit on their couch with a beer watching hockey than go to the track and watch a 10,000?

If you can't give a coherent answer to those questions, slamming OTP with terms like "prison" and "disgrace" is a meaningless gesture.

What more is there really to talk about? It's pretty well accepted by most parties in this thread that you aren't likely to turn on the taps of publicly funded distance running until there is something truly worth funding at a 'high performance' level (no matter how much you and others may want that funding).

So the choice is to either sit on the message boards and bitch about being hard-done by, or go and create something just like the OTC down in the US. Get a bunch of good runners together, get a good coach, get some private funding and run like hell. While executing may be tough, the concept is not, so why do those who care about distance running in Canada continue to waste time whining about AC instead of just doing it?

Skuj wrote:

Several people in this thread, and AC as well, thru recent statements and actions, do not see it this way. What's the use of talking specifics when several of you in this thread do not think that we can ever be there, at the top, no matter what level of support/leadership is available?

And you still cling to your excuses of blaming AC for not supporting less-than-international calibre athletes as if everything is entirely their fault and if only Alex Gardiner or someone would come out and say 'we will give Canadian distance runners everything they want', then suddenly Canadians will be running with the best in the world.

You claim to be 48 years old, so are you really suggesting that AC was so peachy-keen and supportive back in those glory days of the 60s, 70s and 80s? Anyone who knows anything of the history of the sport would know that isn't true, so obviously the problem lies primarily not with AC and their policies but rather with the athletes who are not able to measure up to their predecessors despite greater resources.

If today's distance runners are not capable of matching those from 30 years ago (while the rest of the world has moved on), then no amount of blaming AC is going to accomplish anything.

rsb wrote:

It's a legitimate question to ask, IMHO, why we need to OWN THE PODIUM, in order for a sport to get funding?

I know others have stated that funding is not the be-all and end-all for athletics success. It obviously does have an impact, however.

I think "Own The Podium" has value because it is geared towards success (i.e. medals). Medals breed public support. Public support means more funding.

Canadian taxpayers are likely to squawk about their money going to fund unsuccessful (i.e. no medals) national sports programs. If we see our monies resulting in "podium" performances, we are more likely to keep the funds flowing and perhaps even growing. The more money that is available means the more likely to trickle down to long distance running.

Hey guys. Sorry I am been pre-occupied on some other threads, and haven't been on this one for a while.

You are asking some great questions, and I will do my best to provide some great answers, over time.

In the meantime, I strongly encourage anyone who cares about distance running to read the thread "Clayton's 2:08"

slowly and carefully and with an open mind. There are lots of fantastic posts in there, some from me that reveal a lot of my knowledge and background in distance running, and a lot of others about the training and racing and philosophies of Derek Clayton and Ron Clarke, two of the greatest distance runners who ever lived...

On page 2 of that thread, there is a post by "runner again", with a link to an article on Ron Clarke. It is a wonderful piece, and we should all read it.

Ron Clarke pretty well summed up some of the things I have tried to say in here, when he was quoted as saying"

"He doesn't support talent identification programs. He says, Why should sport be just for the elite? It smacks of saying "the only reason people play sport is because they can become the best in the World.,"

So, that is pretty much exactly in line with my thoughts and feelings and words on this issue. And I would suggest it is 180 degrees opposite to the OWN THE PODIUM

mandate. Anybody disagree with that?

More later,

Ron Bowker

Come on! No one is saying Athletics should only be for the elite. OTP is only say we are going to use our limited taxpayer dollars to FUND the elite. The non-elite used to have plenty of opportunities through the likes of many of the great clubs Canada used to have. Now we have Speed River, and maybe Windsor Legion as the two great club systems in Canada (and Windsor seems to be in a decline compared to where they were about 10 years ago). It seems that there is a whole lot of talk about what AC should do with their limited dollars to save the sport, but no one really wants to step up and VOLUNTEER some time to build the club system up to what it once was. If anything, the decline Canada's is that no one really took over running the great clubs after Clement, Poce, Pimm, Goulet, and even yourself stopped putting as much of their time into these clubs or moved on all together.

Yes, I agree with most of that post, "thewhiz".

May I just add to your list of coaches (and apologies for those I miss....

Ray Will, Al Yarr, Bernie Chisholm, Mel Keeling, Benoit Leduc, Daniel Mercier, Ray Elrick, Hugh Cameron, Peter Grinbergs, Don Mills, Dennis Fairall, Terry Goodenough, Alphonse Bernard, Brian Barnes, Chris McCubbins, Ron Melnichuk, John Fitzgerald, Lyle Sanderson, Alex Ulaszonek, John Cannon, Doug Lamont, Don Bertoia, Mike Van Tighem, Gerry Swan, Norm Trerise, Ivor Davies, Mike Lonergan, Marek Jedrzejek, Brent Fougner, and as you mentioned Doug Clement, Paul Poce, Peter Pimm, Martin Goulet, and I'm sorry to those who aren't right at top of mind at the moment. These were part of the "TEAM" during the 1980's, and all wanted to create solid training groups and excellent distance runners, and support distance running at all levels in Canada.

rsb wrote:

"He doesn't support talent identification programs. He says, Why should sport be just for the elite? It smacks of saying "the only reason people play sport is because they can become the best in the World.,"

So, that is pretty much exactly in line with my thoughts and feelings and words on this issue. And I would suggest it is 180 degrees opposite to the OWN THE PODIUM

mandate. Anybody disagree with that?

Those two points are by no means mutually exclusive. It's the failure of some to see that distinction that makes their arguments meaningless on this thread.

As already pointed out just above, no one, including AC, is saying the only reason people play sport is to be the best in the world. The numerous grass-roots programs funded by federal, provincial and municipal levels of government prove that is not the case.

OTP is simply the component of public funds that is geared towards high performance sport. By definition, any funding of individual athletes or any mention of 'high performance' is elitist. Nothing wrong with that and most would agree that some public money should be made available to those at the very tops of their sport.

Unless you are suggesting there should be some other criteria for determining which individuals get carding money, like maybe whoever really, really wants to run or maybe whoever posts on the internet how much they really, really support Canadian distance running, regardless of whether they run 45 minutes for 10km.

Once again, have a crack at explaining how you, if you were a 'highly paid bureaucrat', would allocate a finite amount of public tax dollars to several dozen summer and winter sports in Canada, without using some criteria geared towards top international placings (ie podium finishes).

Your answer would really shed some light on this debate instead of the usual routine of slamming OTP as inherently bad or evil.

Skuj wrote:

Ron, et al, I can't stand this anymore, hahaha....I'm taking a break from this pathetic thread. Promise!!! I'll give myself 20 days, and see how things are on Jun 1st.

I don't believe that for one second.

(Cue any number of Skuj aliases.)

Patience, grasshopper :) I will, as I said, answer all the questions presented to me, as well as I can...

In the meantime, a reminder of the Clayton thread. A lot of the questions might just be answered by reading that thread.

Please allow me to point out the following...

There have been periods where countries such as New Zealand, Australia, Great Britain, the USA were producing many of the best distance runners in the World, and many of them would still be great today. I would note that none of these were developed from a "top-down", "cherry-picking", "talent identification" model, not even close. They were all the product of "bottom-up"

development. Lots of fit kids running around, getting together for some training and racing, great coaches all over the place, lots of competition even within one's own club, not to mention the next state or province or county, or the Nation as a whole. That is how all these runners and their amazing performances evolved. Not one of them developed from any sort of OTP thinking, not one...And Canada, in it's zenith of distance running production was exactly the same, very much a bottom up model of development, which worked very well...

So we should do away with all national funding and go back to the days of every man for himself?

I don't know about the other countries you mentioned, but weren't all US runners in that general era run by the AAU? which by all accounts makes AC look saintly in their treatment of distance runners. AAU not only offered shitty funding, but in various ways hindered the distance runners of the era. Yet, US still performed very well under these conditions - Prefontaine comes to mind as someone who ran under this rule. Not saying AAU had similar goals, etc. as AC, but it proves that the governing body can't really hold back success.

How about Malindi Elmore. She just won the Sun Run 10k this weekend (easily), ran 8:57 for 3k recently (just behind Begley), has a 15:12 pr in her debut and recently stated in an interview after the Sun Run that she's going to the Netherlands (Hengelo?) to run a 5k in 3 weeks. Of course her 4:02 1500m pr, probably means she'll be supported if sticks with that distance but abandoned if she moves up??? With the likes of Flanagan, Rowbury, Begley and Goucher cranking out top 6 finishes on the world level, it would be crazy to count her out of that type of finish at 5k (especially with 4:02 speed).

Does anyone disagree with this? And, if we all agree, then why the interminable conversations about AC? Aren't they beside the point?

So, given that AC/Sport Bureaucracy is not the issue, what can we as individuals be doing to improve Canadian distance running? Suggestions:

Build our clubs. Try to get everyone in any given area co-operating as much as possible and bringing as many new people into the sport as possible. Try to create environments where it is normal to be committed to training very hard. If you're an athlete, show up at workouts ready to give it your all. If you're a coach, don't baby the athletes; work us hard so that we can be as good as we can be.

Build local races. When possible, choose racing in Canada over racing elsewhere. Talk to other clubs about getting together good fields for local races.

Build distance running as a social activity. Get the top guys together for beers after races. Spend time with your club-mates. One of the hardest things about post-collegiate running is that it's easy to feel like you're engaging in a weird, fringe activity, where everyone else thinks you're wasting your time. It's a lot easier if you can spend some time around other, like-minded people, with whom you can pretend that distance running is a perfectly reasonable pursuit. Why do people quit running when they finish university? There are lots of reasons, but at least one is that the social aspect of being on a team is gone, and suddenly running consists only of getting up every morning - horribly early, if you have to work - and trudging around in the snow on your own. There need's to be some fun involved.

Assuming that local clubs and races already exist, none of the above involve any money. Just a pair of shoes, some dedication, and a few phone calls to get people organized. "Bottom-up" development, as Ron says.