That could be true in some cases. For example the psycho keeping the Clevenger thread going just screwed up and forgot which name he was actually answering for (after admitting to two names among more than a dozen he actually uses) so now there’s no denying that he and surely others do this. The question is what is the benefit… or who benefits. Then there are guys like Armstronglivs who simply wish to be contrarian as it gets people to engage with them — because they have little personal contact with people in their daily lives. Strange for sure.
Armstronglivs argues just to argue. He does have some kind of vendetta against Americans in certain events. Hell, he admitted he hates Yanks so there’s that as well. You note that nut in the Clevenger thread, he’s similar but Armstronglivs uses one name and the Clevenger nutcase uses 50 names or whatever. Btw, you should see what he’s doing after getting caught, now he’s puttiing up long lists of posts he attributes to one guy. Just like Armstronglivs he constantly projects. So your statement that Armstronglivs is contrarian just to get or force people to engage is likely hitting the bullseye. These guys are just two of more than a few posters like this.
Armstronglivs is bothered that a kid at 17 is showing so much more talent, so far, than Snell or Coe. You would think that an old man would realize that’s the way it goes. No matter how good someone is, eventually someone more talented comes along.
You might simplify all that to say that I simply don't hold the same opinions as others here. Intellectual conformity isn't a requirement on these boards.
I agree that Snell had more endurance which is also why he was great over the 1500/mile. But I think Lutkenhaus is towards the endurance end of the 800 spectrum because there would be quite a few guys who could run 21 and 21-low over the 200, and he doesn't appear to be near that. As I previously mentioned, even Tim Courtney was a 21-flat runner, as was George Kerr, and Crothers was near that. Juantorena was really fast - 20.7. So far, I think CL looks like he could be a 21-high guy - similar in that regard to Coe. But it's still pretty fast and certainly fast enough to dominate the 800.
Cooper was faster than Coe ever was as a 15 year old. Coe isn’t the comp you think he is.
I'm not comparing them on the basis of age but according to a measure of apparent speed.
He is still nowhere near the 400 runner that he is over the 800 - yet you say he has run the event plenty of times. I don't know why you trying to make him out to be what he clearly isn't and never will be, which is a 400 runner of equivalent ability to his 800 ability.
This was Armstrong's quote: "As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final."
Then it was shown to him that CL was indeed by far the fastest over 400m (with a time at age 16 while doubling) in the recent world indoor final.
Then he replied that CL isn't as good over 400m then he is over 800m.
Armstrong never - really never - will just agree when he was proved to be wrong (which happens quite often).
Lutkenhaus isn't as good over the 400 as he is over 800. 1:42.26 as against 46 shows that.
-Comparing Lutkenhaus to old farts who have no clear connection to him.
The defenses don’t even make sense now.
You have consistently misunderstood what I have said. But to take just one point. If another prodigy in Wilson has improved only a tenth of a second since he was 16 why would you think Lutkenhaus could improve 1-2secs from the same or similar age?
-Comparing Lutkenhaus to old farts who have no clear connection to him.
The defenses don’t even make sense now.
You have consistently misunderstood what I have said. But to take just one point. If another prodigy in Wilson has improved only a tenth of a second since he was 16 why would you think Lutkenhaus could improve 1-2secs from the same or similar age?
Lutkenhaus is a different runner. He is not Wilson. He was 2.8 seconds faster at 800 indoors this year than last year. He hasn’t raced outdoors yet. You know this and it has you highly agitated.
Lutkenhaus ran his 46.3 after earlier running 1:47.04 in the 800 in the same meet. That indicates he just might have had a bit more to show if he had raced the 400 fresh. If Lutkenhaus “only” runs 45.5 this season (if he races a 400 at all) you will then expound on magical shoes and tracks.
We don’t know how fast Wilson will eventually run the 400, improvement is not linear for anyone. Give him some time. Same goes for Lutkenhaus. You are hilariously obtuse and insanely jealous as others have already noted.
He wouldn't need to be AS GOOD in the 400 as he is in the 800 to double on a 4x400. He is World Champ level in the 800. Our 4x400 guys are not all World Champ level in the 400. They are very good, but they are often 44 mid guys. Cooper would only need to run 1.8 seconds faster than he did as a high school sophomore, off a double, before his 1:42 breakthrough, to get to that level. It's not at all unrealistic to think he can achieve that.
I'll suggest why it is unrealistic. Firstly, 45.3 in a relay is still over 46 from blocks. That would put him in the company of Tom Courtney, George Kerr and Bill Crothers, who all ran 46 flat - but in pre modern shoes and on dirt. They were also 21-flat runners over 200. We have yet to see anything like that from Lutkenhaus, who has yet to run below 22 secs.
But the more significant comparison is with another age prodigy, Quincy Wilson. Wilson has improved one tenth of a second over the 400 since he was 16. He then ran 44.2 and his best is now 44.1. So ONE TENTH. He will be doing well to go below 44. There is no likelihood that he will achieve a second faster let alone 1.5-2secs. Lutkenhaus will likely be able to run sub-46 but sub-45 or better is a real stretch. The price of maturing young is that improvements become harder to come by. Amos never ran the 800 faster than he did in 2012 and Ryun never ran faster than he did at 19. I similarly expect the gains for Lutkenhaus to be marginal as he gets older.
You should be more honest and state you “…hope the Lutkenhaus are marginal as he gets older.” How speedy were Courtney and Kerr at 17 btw? Ryun was victimized (unintentionally) by seriously misguided terrible training and was in fact a better runner at 20 than 19, merely judging from the speed of his finishes in his 1500 and mile records as compared to how he finished the uear earlier in his fastest races. Amos was a fraud in many ways. Leave him out.
I'll suggest why it is unrealistic. Firstly, 45.3 in a relay is still over 46 from blocks. That would put him in the company of Tom Courtney, George Kerr and Bill Crothers, who all ran 46 flat - but in pre modern shoes and on dirt. They were also 21-flat runners over 200. We have yet to see anything like that from Lutkenhaus, who has yet to run below 22 secs.
But the more significant comparison is with another age prodigy, Quincy Wilson. Wilson has improved one tenth of a second over the 400 since he was 16. He then ran 44.2 and his best is now 44.1. So ONE TENTH. He will be doing well to go below 44. There is no likelihood that he will achieve a second faster let alone 1.5-2secs. Lutkenhaus will likely be able to run sub-46 but sub-45 or better is a real stretch. The price of maturing young is that improvements become harder to come by. Amos never ran the 800 faster than he did in 2012 and Ryun never ran faster than he did at 19. I similarly expect the gains for Lutkenhaus to be marginal as he gets older.
You should be more honest and state you “…hope the Lutkenhaus are marginal as he gets older.” How speedy were Courtney and Kerr at 17 btw? Ryun was victimized (unintentionally) by seriously misguided terrible training and was in fact a better runner at 20 than 19, merely judging from the speed of his finishes in his 1500 and mile records as compared to how he finished the uear earlier in his fastest races. Amos was a fraud in many ways. Leave him out.
Ignore Army. Like others (including Thoughtsleader habe noted) he will just move the goal posts. He also ignores any good/salient points that show him for the dolt he is. Wait until he misquotes you, then have a good laugh.
You have consistently misunderstood what I have said. But to take just one point. If another prodigy in Wilson has improved only a tenth of a second since he was 16 why would you think Lutkenhaus could improve 1-2secs from the same or similar age?
Lutkenhaus is a different runner. He is not Wilson. He was 2.8 seconds faster at 800 indoors this year than last year. He hasn’t raced outdoors yet. You know this and it has you highly agitated.
Lutkenhaus ran his 46.3 after earlier running 1:47.04 in the 800 in the same meet. That indicates he just might have had a bit more to show if he had raced the 400 fresh. If Lutkenhaus “only” runs 45.5 this season (if he races a 400 at all) you will then expound on magical shoes and tracks.
We don’t know how fast Wilson will eventually run the 400, improvement is not linear for anyone. Give him some time. Same goes for Lutkenhaus. You are hilariously obtuse and insanely jealous as others have already noted.
You can't make an argument unless you reduce it to an ad hominem attack.
The main points I have made is that even by historical 800 runner standards Lutkenhaus is not particularly fast over the 400 and doesn't as yet show that he might be world-class over the distance - which is what I would understand as being able to double in his case. (I referred to his 45.3 relay leg, which is often given here as indication of what he is capable of, because that still only equates to 46.1 from blocks).
I gave the example of Wilson because he, too, is an age prodigy and like such before him and Lutkenhaus they show that when they mature they often don't improve greatly. It has been pointed out that Lutkenhaus has often raced over the 400 so it isn't that he hasn't had opportunities to significantly improve his best over the distance. I suggest he may only improve as incrementally as Wilson has. I doubt either of them has another second or so in store (a world record for Wilson) and certainly not more.
This post was edited 14 minutes after it was posted.
You should be more honest and state you “…hope the Lutkenhaus are marginal as he gets older.” How speedy were Courtney and Kerr at 17 btw? Ryun was victimized (unintentionally) by seriously misguided terrible training and was in fact a better runner at 20 than 19, merely judging from the speed of his finishes in his 1500 and mile records as compared to how he finished the uear earlier in his fastest races. Amos was a fraud in many ways. Leave him out.
Ignore Army. Like others (including Thoughtsleader habe noted) he will just move the goal posts. He also ignores any good/salient points that show him for the dolt he is. Wait until he misquotes you, then have a good laugh.
I don't move the goal posts. I have reiterated my initial points and addressed those that others have made. You can only refute what I have said if he actually proves me wrong by running faster than I predict. So far he hasn't.
This post was edited 36 seconds after it was posted.
I'll suggest why it is unrealistic. Firstly, 45.3 in a relay is still over 46 from blocks. That would put him in the company of Tom Courtney, George Kerr and Bill Crothers, who all ran 46 flat - but in pre modern shoes and on dirt. They were also 21-flat runners over 200. We have yet to see anything like that from Lutkenhaus, who has yet to run below 22 secs.
But the more significant comparison is with another age prodigy, Quincy Wilson. Wilson has improved one tenth of a second over the 400 since he was 16. He then ran 44.2 and his best is now 44.1. So ONE TENTH. He will be doing well to go below 44. There is no likelihood that he will achieve a second faster let alone 1.5-2secs. Lutkenhaus will likely be able to run sub-46 but sub-45 or better is a real stretch. The price of maturing young is that improvements become harder to come by. Amos never ran the 800 faster than he did in 2012 and Ryun never ran faster than he did at 19. I similarly expect the gains for Lutkenhaus to be marginal as he gets older.
You should be more honest and state you “…hope the Lutkenhaus are marginal as he gets older.” How speedy were Courtney and Kerr at 17 btw? Ryun was victimized (unintentionally) by seriously misguided terrible training and was in fact a better runner at 20 than 19, merely judging from the speed of his finishes in his 1500 and mile records as compared to how he finished the uear earlier in his fastest races. Amos was a fraud in many ways. Leave him out.
I have always said that I don't think Lutkenhaus will significantly improve over the shorter distances as he gets older. That's typical of most sprint times and especially by an early developer, as Lutkenhaus is.
Amos was given as age 18 in 2012; you can't prove he was older. Ryun never improved his 800 time past age 19. The point is that some runners mature early - especially prodigies - and often don't improve much after that.
My giving the examples of Courtney, Kerr and Crothers was only to indicate that 46 secs was quite common in top 400 runners in the distant past - and they had none of the advantages runners have today. The comparable standard today is probably 44-low, like Korir or Juantorena achieved. I can't see Lutkenhaus achieving that as he isn't a 21-flat or better runner over 200 and likely never will be.
None of that means he can't be better yet over 800; only that I can't see him being comparably world-class over 400. (Or the 1500 - but that is another discussion).
Lutkenhaus isn't as good over the 400 as he is over 800. 1:42.26 as against 46 shows that.
Yes, your original statement was wrong.
As is the time you give.
So it's "out" by how many hundreths of a second? It makes what difference? He is nowhere near the runner over 400 as he is over 800. Unless he is he is not "doubling" over those distances; he is merely indulging himself over the lesser event. Very few runners are both at the top of the 400 and the 800 today.
My original statement wasn't to say that to be at the top of his event means that he has to match the all-time best. He doesn't have to be Rudisha to be the best in this era. But he's got to be better than those who medaled in the last Olympics and outdoor wc - he has to beat them in outdoor global championships - and run equivalent or faster times. He isn't there yet - if he gets there.
You can't make an argument unless you reduce it to an ad hominem attack.
The main points I have made is that even by historical 800 runner standards Lutkenhaus is not particularly fast over the 400 and doesn't as yet show that he might be world-class over the distance - which is what I would understand as being able to double in his case. (I referred to his 45.3 relay leg, which is often given here as indication of what he is capable of, because that still only equates to 46.1 from blocks).
I gave the example of Wilson because he, too, is an age prodigy and like such before him and Lutkenhaus they show that when they mature they often don't improve greatly. It has been pointed out that Lutkenhaus has often raced over the 400 so it isn't that he hasn't had opportunities to significantly improve his best over the distance. I suggest he may only improve as incrementally as Wilson has. I doubt either of them has another second or so in store (a world record for Wilson) and certainly not more.
He hasn’t raced a 400 since May 3, 2025. So another lie from you.
You have consistently misunderstood what I have said. But to take just one point. If another prodigy in Wilson has improved only a tenth of a second since he was 16 why would you think Lutkenhaus could improve 1-2secs from the same or similar age?
Because they’re different athletes entirely? Wilson’s set his 400m PB in pro races fresh. Lutkenhaus a HS race on a double, and hasn’t raced the distance again yet. He’s also shown a lot more progress since May 2025 than Wilson.
You can't make an argument unless you reduce it to an ad hominem attack.
The main points I have made is that even by historical 800 runner standards Lutkenhaus is not particularly fast over the 400 and doesn't as yet show that he might be world-class over the distance - which is what I would understand as being able to double in his case. (I referred to his 45.3 relay leg, which is often given here as indication of what he is capable of, because that still only equates to 46.1 from blocks).
I gave the example of Wilson because he, too, is an age prodigy and like such before him and Lutkenhaus they show that when they mature they often don't improve greatly. It has been pointed out that Lutkenhaus has often raced over the 400 so it isn't that he hasn't had opportunities to significantly improve his best over the distance. I suggest he may only improve as incrementally as Wilson has. I doubt either of them has another second or so in store (a world record for Wilson) and certainly not more.
He hasn’t raced a 400 since May 3, 2025. So another lie from you.
It isn't a lie. I said Wilson has only improved a tenth of a second on his best time since he was 16. He has raced indoors this year. It shows that even at his age improvements in speed are hard to come by. He will be doing well to run sub-44. The same might be offered about Lutkenhaus running sub-46. But even if he does that it isn't "doubling" as it isn't world class, which he is over the 800.
We see that the best 400 and best 800 runners are typically never the same athletes. The last such I can recall were Kratochvilova and Juantorena. That is what I understand "doubling" to mean - to be equally good at both. The 400 and 800 are very different events. Bol and Hodgkinson currently show that. Coe, Cruz, Kipketer and Rudisha didn't double in the 400/800.
You have consistently misunderstood what I have said. But to take just one point. If another prodigy in Wilson has improved only a tenth of a second since he was 16 why would you think Lutkenhaus could improve 1-2secs from the same or similar age?
Because they’re different athletes entirely? Wilson’s set his 400m PB in pro races fresh. Lutkenhaus a HS race on a double, and hasn’t raced the distance again yet. He’s also shown a lot more progress since May 2025 than Wilson.
Of course they are different athletes but they are both age prodigies who have matured early; that is the point of the comparison.
Lutkenhaus has stayed at much the same level in the 400 in the last year, which is just over 46 secs (converting his 45.3 relay leg).
As I have said, I expect the improvements for both Wilson and Lutkenhaus to be incremental now. For Wilson it will mean can he run sub-44 and beat the best in that event and for Lutkenhaus it will be whether he can run 1:41-low to beat the best in the 800. Neither is a foregone conclusion. The 400 will not be where Lutkenhaus makes his mark. He will be doing well to run sub-46 - which is good enough for a top 800 runner.
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