Dunning Kruger effect on show. Your obsession continues with a poster I've never heard of as well as a trivial concern for features that some phones don't have.
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Exactly. Hoey, Koech, Strand were all faster than Hocker last year and they were missing. Kessler’s recent 2000m AR also shows him in 3:30-mid 1500m short track shape, and 3:26-high outdoor shape
Hocker finished 5th against a b squad from the US only. Not a global championship.
This is where you lose the plot. None of those 3 have run faster than Hocker ran in Paris or in his indoor mile. Hocker simply didn’t run a paced 1500/mile while fully fit last outdoor season. The depth of the US means that a B squad member won bronze at last years indoors and was closer to Jakobs top competition than the competition was to Jakob. So apologies but that was somewhat of a B global championship as athletes who smoked Neil Gourley at Millrose and in Paris the year before (Nuguse/Kessler) or were in much better fitness (Hocker 7:23) skipped out because the meet was in China.
Now Hocker should’ve placed higher and I agree his tactics were sloppy but all I’ve argued is that doubling was no small feat.
Nuguse at the time had zero championship wins the year before (5th at USA’s).
Ciattei ran 3:52, 7 seconds behind Hocker, but beat him convincingly at USA’s so PB cant really tell you about championships. I think Nader was more sharp than the guys at USA’s in Apeldoorn, Habz too.
Mills finished strongly in Apeldoorn. I think it’s hard to tell who is better.
Yeah Nuguse had a bronze medal, a 5th place finish in Budapest, a DL win or two, Wanamaker wins, 3K US championship, ‘23 USA Champ. George Mills is an elite time trial merchant no doubt and a scrappy racer…who moved up to the 5,000 because he couldn’t finish well enough in the 1500. And now struggles to get through a 5000m heat.
This is where you lose the plot. None of those 3 have run faster than Hocker ran in Paris or in his indoor mile. Hocker simply didn’t run a paced 1500/mile while fully fit last outdoor season. The depth of the US means that a B squad member won bronze at last years indoors and was closer to Jakobs top competition than the competition was to Jakob. So apologies but that was somewhat of a B global championship as athletes who smoked Neil Gourley at Millrose and in Paris the year before (Nuguse/Kessler) or were in much better fitness (Hocker 7:23) skipped out because the meet was in China.
Now Hocker should’ve placed higher and I agree his tactics were sloppy but all I’ve argued is that doubling was no small feat.
I haven’t lost the plot, you’re just creating a false equivalency.
I made a true statement about Hocker running slower in 2025 than the three listed. You countered that they haven’t run as fast as Hocker did in Paris - which is humorous because Hocker has not and will not ever run close to that time again in his life(💉). Those three also haven’t run an indoor mile time trial this season, so it’s possible they could rival Hocker’s recent time. Jakob is also a full second faster than Hocker in the outdoor 1500m and almost an entire full second faster in the indoor mile.
The original commenter who mentioned that Jakob wouldn’t lose after doubling in a similar situation to Hocker on Sunday was correct. At this point I’m not even sure what you are even trying to argue for, aside from the sake of arguing.
Go ahead and downplay Gourley all you want, but Jakob handled Houser last year, and Hocker got handled by Houser on Sunday.
Regarding the double, lots of the top runners have doubled for decades in qualifying meets in their respective events both indoors and out and have gone on to successfully represent their countries on the global stage. So, yes, for distance runners that are flash in the pan or temporarily chemically enhanced, I can see how the double is difficult. But those that are the real deal, doubling or even qualifying in your main event during your prime years should be a given.
And no, you haven’t argued that doubling is “no small feat” because you shat all over someone’s example of Jakob doubling at last years indoor worlds where he had recently ripped the indoor 1500m/mile world record that likely won’t be broken for a long, long time. You could have stacked that 1500m field last year with whoever you wanted and he would not have finished 5th, even if the field had 25 runners.
Incredible Hocker hate in the thread. Literally all of it is because Cole is an Olympic Champion and a World Champion. While the haters are a bunch of jealous incels who never won much, if anything, in their running careers. Now they are all experts as they sit on the couch endlessly throw shade.
I haven’t lost the plot, you’re just creating a false equivalency.
I made a true statement about Hocker running slower in 2025 than the three listed. You countered that they haven’t run as fast as Hocker did in Paris - which is humorous because Hocker has not and will not ever run close to that time again in his life(💉). Those three also haven’t run an indoor mile time trial this season, so it’s possible they could rival Hocker’s recent time. Jakob is also a full second faster than Hocker in the outdoor 1500m and almost an entire full second faster in the indoor mile.
The original commenter who mentioned that Jakob wouldn’t lose after doubling in a similar situation to Hocker on Sunday was correct. At this point I’m not even sure what you are even trying to argue for, aside from the sake of arguing.
Go ahead and downplay Gourley all you want, but Jakob handled Houser last year, and Hocker got handled by Houser on Sunday.
Regarding the double, lots of the top runners have doubled for decades in qualifying meets in their respective events both indoors and out and have gone on to successfully represent their countries on the global stage. So, yes, for distance runners that are flash in the pan or temporarily chemically enhanced, I can see how the double is difficult. But those that are the real deal, doubling or even qualifying in your main event during your prime years should be a given.
And no, you haven’t argued that doubling is “no small feat” because you shat all over someone’s example of Jakob doubling at last years indoor worlds where he had recently ripped the indoor 1500m/mile world record that likely won’t be broken for a long, long time. You could have stacked that 1500m field last year with whoever you wanted and he would not have finished 5th, even if the field had 25 runners.
I am arguing that Hocker faced a deeper 1500m field with better top-end talent than Jakob did, and 11 competitors on the track (many who were fresh and more competitive than the 8 competitors in the World Indoors final). So far, we all agree that Jakob is unlikely to finish as low as 5th in a 1500m final because he frontruns and is better at doubling. But I'm not as convinced he'd finish 1st as you, as I've seen Jakob's track record in unpaced 1500s when he faces top competition. So if we premise (remove Hocker) that Jakob wins the USATF 3,000 vs. Nico and Nuguse, how likely is he to come back the next day and win vs. a 1500m field? I don't think that the probability is 100% at all. Jakob's exact style makes the race easier for Yared (who probably doesn't now have Bove stumble in front of him), and he is better than Gourley in every way. Jakob might also face a greater challenge getting to the front and holding it with legitimate challenges from way more guys than at World Indoors (and not afterthoughts like Pallitsch).
So there you see what is being argued here. And it's flawed that you are acting like doubling is the same for all athletes. Jakob gets pre-selected whereas Hocker has to earn his way by going through several World Top 10-ranked athletes in *each* field. Now, of course winning a World Championship helps with the bye, and now Hocker has a far easier path for 2027. But in 2025, the race being used heavily against him (his 3rd at USAs in the 1500) has to be balanced in the context of a difficult double where in the second race he faced off against two mid 12:40s guys with medals or DL wins (Young, Fisher), a sub 12:50 guy (Blanks), and then several guys with PBs from 12:55-13:05.
Also, your claims that Hoey, Strand, and Koech could run sub-3:46 right now is laughable. Maybe Jakob could too? The truth is Hoey and Koech are presumably injured, and Strand is struggling for form. Right now, Hocker somewhat easily has the world #1 mark at 1500/mile. Cam Myers is the only guys who's flashed fitness possibly in the 3:46 range, but perhaps Nuguse would be there too (if not sick at Millrose).
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Thoughtsleader is right, every one else arguing here need to reassess their knowledge of the sport and stop commenting for a while
I am not advocating for this. I think this discussion has been interesting. Indoors is such a unique season with how serious athletes take it, how stacked fields are, and even field sizes completely variable meet to meet.
EDIT: There’s a different world where USATF opts for rounds, and Hocker races 1500 only, wins, and renders this whole thread meaningless despite being in the exact same fitness.
The reason I say this is that we're now at 15 pages on a thread called Hocker is cooked in the 1500/mile which is a ridiculous statement given he's the Olympic champion and ran 3:45 recently. He also looked amazing in the semi-final at worlds where he got DQd.
I'm fine with people arguing you should take the field over him in an outdoor world championship type race (World Ultimates/World Champs/Olympics), but saying he's cooked is a dumb statement. You can't argue that anyone else is clearly better than him in the event right now, so if you still double down, you'd be implying that everyone in the world is cooked at the 1500/mile.
I am arguing that Hocker faced a deeper 1500m field with better top-end talent than Jakob did, and 11 competitors on the track (many who were fresh and more competitive than the 8 competitors in the World Indoors final). So far, we all agree that Jakob is unlikely to finish as low as 5th in a 1500m final because he frontruns and is better at doubling. But I'm not as convinced he'd finish 1st as you, as I've seen Jakob's track record in unpaced 1500s when he faces top competition. So if we premise (remove Hocker) that Jakob wins the USATF 3,000 vs. Nico and Nuguse, how likely is he to come back the next day and win vs. a 1500m field? I don't think that the probability is 100% at all. Jakob's exact style makes the race easier for Yared (who probably doesn't now have Bove stumble in front of him), and he is better than Gourley in every way. Jakob might also face a greater challenge getting to the front and holding it with legitimate challenges from way more guys than at World Indoors (and not afterthoughts like Pallitsch).
I will say, Jakob's shortcomings in unpaced 1500s is a little overblown. With the exception of some close finishes in global finals, he has an incredibly great record - and as we're not talking about a global final in this thread, I think you should give him a little more credit. As for the field size that you keep bringing up, I really don't think it'd be as big of an issue as you let on. There were 16 people in the 2024 Euro championship 1500, and he had no problem at all with that. There were also 12 people in the 2023 Euro indoor championship 1500m final, and again, this gave him zero issues.
You're technically just saying that you're not "100% certain" he would win, which can be hard to argue with (who knows, maybe he falls?), but overall I think you may be exaggerating the challenge he'd face.
I will say, Jakob's shortcomings in unpaced 1500s is a little overblown. With the exception of some close finishes in global finals, he has an incredibly great record - and as we're not talking about a global final in this thread, I think you should give him a little more credit. As for the field size that you keep bringing up, I really don't think it'd be as big of an issue as you let on. There were 16 people in the 2024 Euro championship 1500, and he had no problem at all with that. There were also 12 people in the 2023 Euro indoor championship 1500m final, and again, this gave him zero issues.
You're technically just saying that you're not "100% certain" he would win, which can be hard to argue with (who knows, maybe he falls?), but overall I think you may be exaggerating the challenge he'd face.
It is not overblown when referring to fields with top-end talent. It's a pattern, not an aberration. It's not just him, frontrunning is notoriously difficult to pull off in Championships.
Field size is a non-factor if only a few athletes are fit like at 2023 European indoors. But the 2026 USAs 1500 featured pretty good talent, depth, and athletes who'd capitalize on being fresh. That's why it was a challenge. Again given Jakob's ability to double, there'd be nobody better suited to do it. But you could lay out Jakob's tactics, and I'd have plenty of doubts just about all of them. Run 3:31-2 from the front? You mean the tactic that Samuel Tefera beat? Wait until 800 after running in last? Little more challenging with 11 guys in front of you, and Yared Nuguse (not Neil Gourley) shadowing your every step and a fresh Nathan Green ready to come over the top if you don't make the race faster than 3:33.
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It is not overblown when referring to fields with top-end talent. It's a pattern, not an aberration. It's not just him, frontrunning is notoriously difficult to pull off in Championships.
Field size is a non-factor if only a few athletes are fit like at 2023 European indoors. But the 2026 USAs 1500 featured pretty good talent, depth, and athletes who'd capitalize on being fresh. That's why it was a challenge. Again given Jakob's ability to double, there'd be nobody better suited to do it. But you could lay out Jakob's tactics, and I'd have plenty of doubts just about all of them. Run 3:31-2 from the front? You mean the tactic that Samuel Tefera beat? Wait until 800 after running in last? Little more challenging with 11 guys in front of you, and Yared Nuguse (not Neil Gourley) shadowing your every step and a fresh Nathan Green ready to come over the top if you don't make the race faster than 3:33.
Look, the US crop is good right now, but comparing it to a world outdoor final is just dishonest. If we're not counting Cole, there was 1 guy in that field who ever made a global final, and 2 that have ever made an outdoor team.
And I don't know exactly how Jakob would chose to run the race, but he's really good indoors. 7 Euro indoor golds, and 2 world indoor golds. Running from the front and winding it up would probably do the trick. It's a much better tactic indoors when it's harder to get around. Look at what Hobbs did last year.
Look, the US crop is good right now, but comparing it to a world outdoor final is just dishonest. If we're not counting Cole, there was 1 guy in that field who ever made a global final, and 2 that have ever made an outdoor team.
And I don't know exactly how Jakob would chose to run the race, but he's really good indoors. 7 Euro indoor golds, and 2 world indoor golds. Running from the front and winding it up would probably do the trick. It's a much better tactic indoors when it's harder to get around. Look at what Hobbs did last year.
It is more dishonest to use the US' strength against it. Is it surprising that athletes with the talent to make some noise at the global stage don't get a chance when you basically need to be in close to medal shape to make a team? Luke Houser's bronze last year being the perfect example. Yes, Koech (injury), Hocker (self-inflicted DQ) and Strand (couldn't hold his peak) didn't perform as they should've last year. But in 2024 it was 1-3-5. The rest of the world was 2-4-6. Since Jakob front-ran it fast, it became a fitness contest with peaking involved. Anyhow, nobody is dismissing Jakob. Just not dismissing the challenge of this double.
I will say, Jakob's shortcomings in unpaced 1500s is a little overblown. With the exception of some close finishes in global finals, he has an incredibly great record - and as we're not talking about a global final in this thread, I think you should give him a little more credit. As for the field size that you keep bringing up, I really don't think it'd be as big of an issue as you let on. There were 16 people in the 2024 Euro championship 1500, and he had no problem at all with that. There were also 12 people in the 2023 Euro indoor championship 1500m final, and again, this gave him zero issues.
You're technically just saying that you're not "100% certain" he would win, which can be hard to argue with (who knows, maybe he falls?), but overall I think you may be exaggerating the challenge he'd face.
It is not overblown when referring to fields with top-end talent. It's a pattern, not an aberration. It's not just him, frontrunning is notoriously difficult to pull off in Championships.
Field size is a non-factor if only a few athletes are fit like at 2023 European indoors. But the 2026 USAs 1500 featured pretty good talent, depth, and athletes who'd capitalize on being fresh. That's why it was a challenge. Again given Jakob's ability to double, there'd be nobody better suited to do it. But you could lay out Jakob's tactics, and I'd have plenty of doubts just about all of them. Run 3:31-2 from the front? You mean the tactic that Samuel Tefera beat? Wait until 800 after running in last? Little more challenging with 11 guys in front of you, and Yared Nuguse (not Neil Gourley) shadowing your every step and a fresh Nathan Green ready to come over the top if you don't make the race faster than 3:33.
Yared Nuguse was worse in the 2026 USATF Indoor final than Gourley in the Nanjing 1500m final, as well as Habz and Nader. They all closed better than the top four in the race in either Apeldoorn or Nanjing. I think you are just grasping at straws now by saying “Nuguse is experienced”.
I am not advocating for this. I think this discussion has been interesting. Indoors is such a unique season with how serious athletes take it, how stacked fields are, and even field sizes completely variable meet to meet.
EDIT: There’s a different world where USATF opts for rounds, and Hocker races 1500 only, wins, and renders this whole thread meaningless despite being in the exact same fitness.
The reason I say this is that we're now at 15 pages on a thread called Hocker is cooked in the 1500/mile which is a ridiculous statement given he's the Olympic champion and ran 3:45 recently. He also looked amazing in the semi-final at worlds where he got DQd.
I'm fine with people arguing you should take the field over him in an outdoor world championship type race (World Ultimates/World Champs/Olympics), but saying he's cooked is a dumb statement. You can't argue that anyone else is clearly better than him in the event right now, so if you still double down, you'd be implying that everyone in the world is cooked at the 1500/mile.
It’s cooked relative to what he accomplished in Paris and how many people glaze him here. Expectations are different for other runners so of course they aren’t cooked.
LOL. You can’t argue that anybody is better than him when he just placed 5th at his national championship? this post will be even more embarrassing if Houser or Green don’t even medal at world indoors. Hocker may be the best at 3000/5000m distances (in unplaced races). He is not even close to the best at the 1500m.
It is more dishonest to use the US' strength against it. Is it surprising that athletes with the talent to make some noise at the global stage don't get a chance when you basically need to be in close to medal shape to make a team? Luke Houser's bronze last year being the perfect example. Yes, Koech (injury), Hocker (self-inflicted DQ) and Strand (couldn't hold his peak) didn't perform as they should've last year. But in 2024 it was 1-3-5. The rest of the world was 2-4-6. Since Jakob front-ran it fast, it became a fitness contest with peaking involved. Anyhow, nobody is dismissing Jakob. Just not dismissing the challenge of this double.
The US is definitely very good at the 1500- about as good as Europe as a whole (I'd give Europe a slight edge). But you can't dismiss 2025, and point to 2024 as an accurate indication of where the US stands. If you take away that race, the US has zero top four finishes in outdoor finals since 2016. That's 0/24 (Norway has 6/24 btw).
I think the truth of the US's standing in the 1500 is somewhere in between those two extremes.
Yared Nuguse was worse in the 2026 USATF Indoor final than Gourley in the Nanjing 1500m final, as well as Habz and Nader. They all closed better than the top four in the race in either Apeldoorn or Nanjing. I think you are just grasping at straws now by saying “Nuguse is experienced”.
By .09 while running 1 second faster and having to run wider after getting shuffled back by a stumble in front of him. You are splitting hairs. If any of the top 4 in Nanjing had run a 13.08 last 100 like Nathan Green did despite having to go wide and running a second faster in the race, they all would've beaten Jakob handily. But every race is different. In Nanjing, Houser is moving the best probably the last 150 (13.16 from 1300-1400m and looking dangerous), but Gourley exhausts his energy to hold the final curve and then uses an elbow to disrupt Houser's stride with 40m to go. Both legal tactics, but since Gourley had no extra gear (13.56 last 50) he ended up getting a silver and neutralizing the only guy who maybe had more in him.
You can look at Habz in Appledoorn, and there's no way you can tell me with a straight face that Azeddine Habz is as good as Yared. He was beaten by Nuguse by almost 1s at Millrose and has a worst finish than him in general. Give me Yared in the 2nd spot any day of the week over Habz especially at that point in 2025.
The reason I say this is that we're now at 15 pages on a thread called Hocker is cooked in the 1500/mile which is a ridiculous statement given he's the Olympic champion and ran 3:45 recently. He also looked amazing in the semi-final at worlds where he got DQd.
I'm fine with people arguing you should take the field over him in an outdoor world championship type race (World Ultimates/World Champs/Olympics), but saying he's cooked is a dumb statement. You can't argue that anyone else is clearly better than him in the event right now, so if you still double down, you'd be implying that everyone in the world is cooked at the 1500/mile.
It’s cooked relative to what he accomplished in Paris and how many people glaze him here. Expectations are different for other runners so of course they aren’t cooked.
LOL. You can’t argue that anybody is better than him when he just placed 5th at his national championship? this post will be even more embarrassing if Houser or Green don’t even medal at world indoors. Hocker may be the best at 3000/5000m distances (in unplaced races). He is not even close to the best at the 1500m.
The US is definitely very good at the 1500- about as good as Europe as a whole (I'd give Europe a slight edge). But you can't dismiss 2025, and point to 2024 as an accurate indication of where the US stands. If you take away that race, the US has zero top four finishes in outdoor finals since 2016. That's 0/24 (Norway has 6/24 btw).
I think the truth of the US's standing in the 1500 is somewhere in between those two extremes.
Sure. I didn't dismiss it, but I don't think the USA sent what would've been their eventual best team which can happen. Nuguse finished 1st and 3rd in his first two DLs after USAs. Koech could barely run for weeks after the WC trials, so evaluating the USA on their injured champion isn't exactly the fairest in my estimation. He was lucky to make the Final. In 2024, clearly the USA sent their best team. All their guys ran well at Trials but then carried the fitness much better than anyone else outside of Kerr, Jakob and Tim. Things can happen under the cutthroat trials system, and a DQ in the semis is a bit extreme for Hocker considering he'd gone through how many qualifying rounds ('21, '23, 24, Indoors '24) without it happening. I think that'd be 7. So yes an exceptional set of circumstances I'd say. While 1-3-5 is extreme the other way, does anyone dispute the US had 5-6 guys in the World top 20 last year entering the Trials, and another 4-5 in the top 50 or so? With that being the case, doubling becomes difficult especially if the schedule is condensed.
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I haven’t lost the plot, you’re just creating a false equivalency.
I made a true statement about Hocker running slower in 2025 than the three listed. You countered that they haven’t run as fast as Hocker did in Paris - which is humorous because Hocker has not and will not ever run close to that time again in his life(💉). Those three also haven’t run an indoor mile time trial this season, so it’s possible they could rival Hocker’s recent time. Jakob is also a full second faster than Hocker in the outdoor 1500m and almost an entire full second faster in the indoor mile.
The original commenter who mentioned that Jakob wouldn’t lose after doubling in a similar situation to Hocker on Sunday was correct. At this point I’m not even sure what you are even trying to argue for, aside from the sake of arguing.
Go ahead and downplay Gourley all you want, but Jakob handled Houser last year, and Hocker got handled by Houser on Sunday.
Regarding the double, lots of the top runners have doubled for decades in qualifying meets in their respective events both indoors and out and have gone on to successfully represent their countries on the global stage. So, yes, for distance runners that are flash in the pan or temporarily chemically enhanced, I can see how the double is difficult. But those that are the real deal, doubling or even qualifying in your main event during your prime years should be a given.
And no, you haven’t argued that doubling is “no small feat” because you shat all over someone’s example of Jakob doubling at last years indoor worlds where he had recently ripped the indoor 1500m/mile world record that likely won’t be broken for a long, long time. You could have stacked that 1500m field last year with whoever you wanted and he would not have finished 5th, even if the field had 25 runners.
I am arguing that Hocker faced a deeper 1500m field with better top-end talent than Jakob did, and 11 competitors on the track (many who were fresh and more competitive than the 8 competitors in the World Indoors final). So far, we all agree that Jakob is unlikely to finish as low as 5th in a 1500m final because he frontruns and is better at doubling. But I'm not as convinced he'd finish 1st as you, as I've seen Jakob's track record in unpaced 1500s when he faces top competition. So if we premise (remove Hocker) that Jakob wins the USATF 3,000 vs. Nico and Nuguse, how likely is he to come back the next day and win vs. a 1500m field? I don't think that the probability is 100% at all. Jakob's exact style makes the race easier for Yared (who probably doesn't now have Bove stumble in front of him), and he is better than Gourley in every way. Jakob might also face a greater challenge getting to the front and holding it with legitimate challenges from way more guys than at World Indoors (and not afterthoughts like Pallitsch).
So there you see what is being argued here. And it's flawed that you are acting like doubling is the same for all athletes. Jakob gets pre-selected whereas Hocker has to earn his way by going through several World Top 10-ranked athletes in *each* field. Now, of course winning a World Championship helps with the bye, and now Hocker has a far easier path for 2027. But in 2025, the race being used heavily against him (his 3rd at USAs in the 1500) has to be balanced in the context of a difficult double where in the second race he faced off against two mid 12:40s guys with medals or DL wins (Young, Fisher), a sub 12:50 guy (Blanks), and then several guys with PBs from 12:55-13:05.
Also, your claims that Hoey, Strand, and Koech could run sub-3:46 right now is laughable. Maybe Jakob could too? The truth is Hoey and Koech are presumably injured, and Strand is struggling for form. Right now, Hocker somewhat easily has the world #1 mark at 1500/mile. Cam Myers is the only guys who's flashed fitness possibly in the 3:46 range, but perhaps Nuguse would be there too (if not sick at Millrose).
The only argument here that works is the field size. Yes it would be slightly harder for Jakob to get to the front but nobody was pushing hard at 800, I find it a stretch that getting to the front would impede him. Otherwise, the rest of your argument fails. Habz and Nader clearly peaked and closed faster than any other competitors in front of Hocker at USA indoors. Gourley and Nader repeated the same splits in a race marginally slower (2 sec). So Jakob faced tougher top end competition at both championship meets and beat them. Jakob’s exact style wouldn’t benefit Nuguse because he was already struggling to close as fast in a final 800m pace far slower than Jakob employed in both Nanjing and Apeldoorn. Nuguse just wasn’t as fit as he was previously in that final. Nobody is fighting Jakob for the lead. Nuguse took the lead over Hocker at 900m but that’s because he was running 30-31 second laps at that point. He has never tried to take the lead from Jakob in any race and he respects him (as he should unlike Hocker who likes to sit and kick). Otherwise, the only other challenge would have came from Houser who put a big move at at 1100m but then why didn’t Houser put that challenge to Jakob at Nanjing? Oh that’s right because Jakob was running significantly faster over the final 800m such that it neutralized everyone’s kicks, and it would have been even better at Apeldoorn. Otherwise, no other significant moves really that would be meaningful as the pace at that point was slower than the pace that any of the competitors that finished with Jakob closed in