It certainly gets them very agitated when the subject is brought up.
Only when you lie about facts.
You mean the facts that he has lost in every global championship over the distance since 2021 and still doesn't hold the world records for either the 1500 or the mile?
See? Typical NPD insult. You have never seen me so why would you say that? Silly man. But you have written here that you are ugly. Well... Guess it's you projecting again.
What you didn't seem to notice in an earlier comment was the following observation about you.
".. you also don't see how narcissistic of you it is to engage in protracted personal exchanges with another poster as though other posters and readers share your obsession with the object of your ire and wish to read that unremitting nonsense."
That is incorrect. Why bother?
You keep responding to my every post - as you have just shown again - so you prove it 100%. You think others care about your ridiculous petty feud or in your relentless self absorption you don't care that they aren't interested in your obsession with another poster.
Round and round your mulberry bush. Farah has global titles in the 5k that Ingebrigtsen will never have. That overrules everything else in the comparison. He also doesn't make it to the all-time greats in the 1500/mile because he keeps losing and doesn't have the records over the distance.
You didn't answer the question, why would your criteria be different for different distances and how does Mo Farah qualify as an all time great with your criteria when he went 12 years without a global title and is nowhere near the world records?
I am not interested in your question. In fact, nothing you say interests me.
So let's get this straight, you're arguing that rather than Jakob being good, it's equally likely that a white man from Norway handles heat better than runners from sub Saharan Africa, and not a single one of his competitors have managed to peak for the most important race of the season, spanning multiple seasons?
What drugs are you on? I need to try them for myself.
The Devil is in the details: You have to analyse each athlete independently of home continent, and also listen to what these themselves are saying about how they function in hot weather.
Examples: Narve Nordås, George Beamish, Morgan McDonald, Karoline Grøvdal and a lot of others have repeatedly claimed that they are almost without any chance in the distance events (not the 1500m) when it’s extremely hot. And their performances also show that they don’t lie… So to the Africans: I knew f.x that Kejelcha would underperform in the 3000m Silesia race, because I have a hard time to find a good champs race by him when it’s hot (and it’s almost always hot in the champs). The one good I can find is symptomatic: His silver in the WC 2019 10000m -in a Doha stadium with a strong cooling machinery….
Aregawi, Kiplimo, Fisher and Cheptegei seem to be like Jakob: Very good even in hot/humid weather conditions, so when Jakob beats those athletes the reason isn’t the heat.
Yes, not a single of Jakob’s most credited competitors has managed to peak in the important races against Jakob. -This is very easy to document: Cheptegei, Aregawi, Gebrhiwet, Fisher, Kejelcha etc have all been beaten by slow athletes in these races, in addition to being crushed by Jakob. And this as a clear contrast to for instance the Paris OG 10000m, where Cheptegei expectedly is followed by the very good Aregawi and Fisher on the podium. And again: the Devil is in the details. -It’s not hard at all to find the reasons why the athletes Jakob met in the 5000m champs weren’t in peak shape, although these reasons are complex and multifaceted. I have listed some of these reasons in multiple post in other threads that I know you have read, so I won’t repeat them here, but only confront your new argument that hot weather resistance solely is continental and not individual… (Among the women Gidey seems to be an African that suffer in hot weather, but I haven’t analysed her properly enough to be totally sure).
I don't disagree with the claim that some athletes handle heat better than others, and that some athletes are better at peaking for the most important races than others.
I disagree with the notion that Jakob is somehow both the one elite 5000m runner on the planet who can handle heat the best, better than runners who have lived and trained their entire life in sub Saharan heat, and that Jakob is the only 5000m runner on the planet who has the ability to peak for the most important races.
I also don't think you can have a claim to be the best runner if you lack such a fundamental skill as being able to plan your training and schedule so that you are at the best for the most important races of the season.
It's completely irrelevant if someone has the potential to beat Jakob in a championship 5000 if they are unable perform at their best because of poor planning and training.
Now you sre using different criteria, that's good. But he still can't give any list.
He don't make the list? How long is this list which you can't give?
Without any doubt he already is in the top 10. 8? 7? Who is ahead of him?
I am not interested in your questions. I don't believe Ingebrigtsen is amongst the all-time greats for the 1500/mile. I have said why. You can choose to believe otherwise but I won't agree.
For sure you don't "want" to give any list: you can't.
Your first string of criteria is just fulfilled by 1 athlete, Herb Elliott, who has had just two seasons at the top.
Your new criteria is clearly fulfilled by Ingebrigtsen.
That you don't want to go in any discussion about the subject is understandable: you are not interested in the question. Your only interest is to put some specific runner down. Why?
Ovett for you clearly is not an all-time great. Also not Ryun. Not Keino. Not Cram. In fact; who remains?
Ingebrigtsen already is very high - that's not debatable. Top 5? Top 10?
I don't disagree with the claim that some athletes handle heat better than others, and that some athletes are better at peaking for the most important races than others.
I disagree with the notion that Jakob is somehow both the one elite 5000m runner on the planet who can handle heat the best, better than runners who have lived and trained their entire life in sub Saharan heat, and that Jakob is the only 5000m runner on the planet who has the ability to peak for the most important races.
I also don't think you can have a claim to be the best runner if you lack such a fundamental skill as being able to plan your training and schedule so that you are at the best for the most important races of the season.
It's completely irrelevant if someone has the potential to beat Jakob in a championship 5000 if they are unable perform at their best because of poor planning and training.
I don’t think Jakob is better than all of his closest competitors when it comes to hot weather. -Clearly Arigawi and Cheptegei and Kiplimo are not any worse than Jakob in that regard.
When it comes to planning your training, peaking, sickness, racing, doubling and preventing of injuries I think Jakob has some flaws like everybody else. But we know that he restitutes fast and well, which of course is a plus. Saying that, I clearly think that racing an Olympic record in a hot 10000m is a good reason for why Kiplimo and Cheptegei had to skip the 5000m, and Fisher was beaten by a 13.02 man.
Of course none other than the athlete is responsible for his own injuries, lack of peaking, events priorities or sickness. And if one beats an injured or sick or leggy athlete of course one is better than that guy that day. But that doesn’t mean that one could beat that athlete when he is at his best, or beat his records / pb’s. Neither does it mean that one couldn’t. Therefore it’s crucial that athletes meet often enough to rule out the coincidental stuff (injuries, out of shape, hot weather, sickness, luck, tactics) and also show their capacity and ceiling through fast times. Jakob hasn’t done this yet -that doesn’t mean that he isn’t the best. It only means that we can’t be sure he is the best…
So let's get this straight, you're arguing that rather than Jakob being good, it's equally likely that a white man from Norway handles heat better than runners from sub Saharan Africa, and not a single one of his competitors have managed to peak for the most important race of the season, spanning multiple seasons?
What drugs are you on? I need to try them for myself.
The Devil is in the details: You have to analyse each athlete independently of home continent, and also listen to what these themselves are saying about how they function in hot weather.
Examples: Narve Nordås, George Beamish, Morgan McDonald, Karoline Grøvdal and a lot of others have repeatedly claimed that they are almost without any chance in the distance events (not the 1500m) when it’s extremely hot. And their performances also show that they don’t lie… So to the Africans: I knew f.x that Kejelcha would underperform in the 3000m Silesia race, because I have a hard time to find a good champs race by him when it’s hot (and it’s almost always hot in the champs). The one good I can find is symptomatic: His silver in the WC 2019 10000m -in a Doha stadium with a strong cooling machinery….
Aregawi, Kiplimo, Fisher and Cheptegei seem to be like Jakob: Very good even in hot/humid weather conditions, so when Jakob beats those athletes the reason isn’t the heat.
Yes, not a single of Jakob’s most credited competitors has managed to peak in the important races against Jakob. -This is very easy to document: Cheptegei, Aregawi, Gebrhiwet, Fisher, Kejelcha etc have all been beaten by slow athletes in these races, in addition to being crushed by Jakob. And this as a clear contrast to for instance the Paris OG 10000m, where Cheptegei expectedly is followed by the very good Aregawi and Fisher on the podium. And again: the Devil is in the details. -It’s not hard at all to find the reasons why the athletes Jakob met in the 5000m champs weren’t in peak shape, although these reasons are complex and multifaceted. I have listed some of these reasons in multiple post in other threads that I know you have read, so I won’t repeat them here, but only confront your new argument that hot weather resistance solely is continental and not individual… (Among the women Gidey seems to be an African that suffer in hot weather, but I haven’t analysed her properly enough to be totally sure).
You have discovered the difference between time trials and championship races. If you are interested in more of this, check out the career of a chap called Mo Farah.
We can all dismiss whatever Livs says after he wrote on the Sam Ruth thread: "You obviously don't know that the drug [EPO] wasn't invented until the late '80's."
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You have discovered the difference between time trials and championship races. If you are interested in more of this, check out the career of a chap called Mo Farah.
I know Cheptegei could run 12.35 and Gebrhiwet 12.36. I don’t know if Jakob can, so I need to see that before I call him the best. And the same with Mo Farah -I think a lot of us think he would be regarded even higher if he had some good times in his main events…
You have discovered the difference between time trials and championship races. If you are interested in more of this, check out the career of a chap called Mo Farah.
I know Cheptegei could run 12.35 and Gebrhiwet 12.36. I don’t know if Jakob can, so I need to see that before I call him the best. And the same with Mo Farah -I think a lot of us think he would be regarded even higher if he had some good times in his main events…
7:17 3k for Jakob.
Easily beats those 2 sub 12:40 guys in the championship 5ks the last 3 years.
If he remains healthy and targets it, I do think he can take the 5k WR
We can all dismiss whatever Livs says after he wrote on the Sam Ruth thread: "You obviously don't know that the drug [EPO] wasn't invented until the late '80's."
I know Cheptegei could run 12.35 and Gebrhiwet 12.36. I don’t know if Jakob can, so I need to see that before I call him the best. And the same with Mo Farah -I think a lot of us think he would be regarded even higher if he had some good times in his main events…
7:17 3k for Jakob.
Easily beats those 2 sub 12:40 guys in the championship 5ks the last 3 years.
If he remains healthy and targets it, I do think he can take the 5k WR
Sure you might be right. But you might also be wrong. Hocker is a 7.23 runner, but only a 12.57 in the 5000m. On the other side Komen did well in both the 3000m and 5000m, with a similar 10000m time to Jakob’s 10k. But he wasn’t as fast in the 1500 and 800m as Cole and Jakob. -Hard to interpolate someone’s time in one event to another. Jakob himself uses the argument of high mileage training to stress that he is better the longer the distance. But Snell and Walker weren’t, despite high mileage. And Jakob hasn’t impressed me in the distances above 5000m…
I don’t know why we discuss this at all. -Let the guy run a fast one, and we can all agree…!
I don't disagree with the claim that some athletes handle heat better than others, and that some athletes are better at peaking for the most important races than others.
I disagree with the notion that Jakob is somehow both the one elite 5000m runner on the planet who can handle heat the best, better than runners who have lived and trained their entire life in sub Saharan heat, and that Jakob is the only 5000m runner on the planet who has the ability to peak for the most important races.
I also don't think you can have a claim to be the best runner if you lack such a fundamental skill as being able to plan your training and schedule so that you are at the best for the most important races of the season.
It's completely irrelevant if someone has the potential to beat Jakob in a championship 5000 if they are unable perform at their best because of poor planning and training.
I don’t think Jakob is better than all of his closest competitors when it comes to hot weather. -Clearly Arigawi and Cheptegei and Kiplimo are not any worse than Jakob in that regard.
When it comes to planning your training, peaking, sickness, racing, doubling and preventing of injuries I think Jakob has some flaws like everybody else. But we know that he restitutes fast and well, which of course is a plus. Saying that, I clearly think that racing an Olympic record in a hot 10000m is a good reason for why Kiplimo and Cheptegei had to skip the 5000m, and Fisher was beaten by a 13.02 man.
Of course none other than the athlete is responsible for his own injuries, lack of peaking, events priorities or sickness. And if one beats an injured or sick or leggy athlete of course one is better than that guy that day. But that doesn’t mean that one could beat that athlete when he is at his best, or beat his records / pb’s. Neither does it mean that one couldn’t. Therefore it’s crucial that athletes meet often enough to rule out the coincidental stuff (injuries, out of shape, hot weather, sickness, luck, tactics) and also show their capacity and ceiling through fast times. Jakob hasn’t done this yet -that doesn’t mean that he isn’t the best. It only means that we can’t be sure he is the best…
So first you say Cheptegei isn't worse than Jakob when it comes to handling heat, and then you say the heat is a good reason for Cheptegei skipping the 5000?
Cheptegei has raced a grand total of 3 global 5000 finals in his entire career, so I think we can chalk that up to something other than the heat.
And yes, we can be sure that Jakob is the best if he's the only 5000 runner who can show up at his best for the most important races, because you cannot have a legitimate claim to be the best runner if you lack one of the most important and fundamental skills that a professional runner should have.
Your wife reads many of Armstronglivs' posts regarding Ingebrigtsen? She knows the behaviour of the guy well, right?
Armstronglivs is a notorious liar - a fact. He has lied many times about what he has written before when even he has realised which contratictioning nonsense he has written. He is not capable to get the most easy facts correct - many many examples for this
In all of his thousands (yes, thousands, and yes this is worth mentioning) of posts regarding this single athlete, he has only one intention: to downplay his achievements and his comments (which might be incorrect sometimes, maybe also arrogant)
Someone mentions that Ingebrigtsen is a 3:26 athlete (everbody in this forum, including Armstronglivs) knows the exact meaning of this and almost anybody (including Armstronglivs) uses it in exact this way. But he has to come up with: Ingebrigtsen is not a 3:26 athlete. For sure people will argue now against this nonsense - and another point is destroyed.
Just a few days ago he compares Ingebrigtsen's 800m PB with Coe's. Why? When confronted with the enormous difference in their PBs in longer events he just replys: Coe was a 800m/1500m runner. Also Ingebrigtsen?
There are so many more examples. But continue to shorten your gap to him.
He avoids any concrete question, for example: where do you rank him with all his achievements? He can't answer it, because he doesn't want to tell the truth, that he already is amongst the all-time greats.
Anybody who just tries to fairly discuss his achievements is called a stupid fan boy. I'm not a fan of him and I was really happy when Wightman has beaten him, also when Kerr did the same a year later (this has changed now and I'm routing for Ingebrigtsen against Kerr now). My favourite 1500m currently is Nuguse. But this has nothing to do how I value their achievements.
I lost all the respect which I might have had for you a while ago. But this completely irrelevant comment about your wife was the last step: you can't taken seriously, same like your friend.
Very very few athletes at age 24 have achieved what Ingebrigtsen has (who?). Therefore it's a realistic point of view he might get to the absolute top (his goal). This has absolutely nothing to do with blind fan behavior.
Maybe he will never win another 1500m medal. Maybe he will win the next 3 up to LA. Maybe he will never set another record. Or he will get the 1500m, Mile and 5000m this summer? That's also possible after last year and this winter.
What's the point in ridiculing any failure of him?
Of course Armstronglivs is a subjective poster (we all are). And of course he over does things, and is playing a devils advocate against Jakob. And of course he teases a lot of his opponents, and of course he twists a lot of his words so they can fit his narrative. And even when I have discussed with him he has called my posts flannel, and refused to read them.
But you, and most posters here, refuses to acknowledge that you aren’t any better. -I have been on this forum for many years, and I have discussed with the most serious and knowledgeable posters here, and believe me -they don’t come out better than Armstronglivs. On the contrary: they come out worse in many segments of the debate.
As humans we are all extremely bad at debating. Most of us can maybe open up to be influenced by someone who means pretty much the same that we do ourselves. But even then we aren’t properly seen by others. And debating someone who disagrees with us (as so often in this forum) is a lost case -most come here not to learn or be influenced, but only to present one’s own case…
Armstronglivs obviously reacts on posters that over and over again fill the threads with “thin soup” and don’t at all tolerate different views. So he chooses the wordings and debate form he finds suitable -the more hopeless he finds the opponents the more hopeless debate technique he chooses. Rightly in my view -you can’t change hopelessness with reasoning. But saying that, he also presents a lot of good facts, opinions and points in all the themes that he debates -it is as if he won’t be unreasonable all the time. But of course he doesn’t get any credit for that -he has f.x clearly acknowledged that Jakob is a close to 12.40 (narrowed in to 12.42) man, but his opponents keep on with the 12.48 as if his acknowledgments never were done. And of course he then plays along…
Armstronglivs has a gut feeling that doping is prevalent and that Jakob is a narcissist in a bad way. Well, my own gut feelings is different, but that doesn’t mean that Armstronglivs is wrong. Not at all -I would easily change my view if I see something I don’t see now. -It’s only sport, and I can easily be the one that are wrong. But in the important things I agree with Arms -free speech and the right to different opinions, the right to criticise blind fan boys/girls and also out spoken athletes, none tolerance for dictator wannabe politicians and for abusive fathers/coaches… Maybe I sound like a dot, but it’s only sport, and in art, culture, politics and intimacy between people I have values that are quite firm.
Lastly: You can’t change a poster that irritates you, and that poster can’t change you. So I’m really curious -why on earth are you so angry against this man. -I myself isn’t bothered at all when Armstronglivs posts things I disagree in. First I check out if there’s any nuances in what he writes that are new to me, then I check out if there’s humour or good wording (that it often is) and then if it’s only one of the frequently repetitions. If it’s only the last thing I chuckle and let it go…
PS. And my wife laughing over one of Armstronglivs funny posts -of course I presented the post subjectively; you are right in that. But the point is that she laughed. And I mentioned it because you guys are so serious and laugh so little here. -This is only sport. It’s supposed to be a free place.
"subjective poster" and so on. Bla bla bla. You completely avoid the point: that he writes such an enormous amount of nonsense. Constantly. In hundreds of posts every week. Especially about Jakob Ingebrigtsen. But not only - just search for his name and check any thread he appears: fight after fight with anybody. What could be the reason?
Ingebrigtsen has lost three 1500m finals in a row therefore he isn't a all-time great at the distance. Confronted with the fact that Sebastian Coe's championship record at 800m is much much weaker than Ingebrigtsen's over 1500m. He avoids any discussion about it. His definition of all-time great was: having the WR and winning the big titles which are available for the athlete.
With this definition only Herb Elliott remains (who has had just 2 seasons at the top).
He refuses to answer any concrete question you ask him about such subjects - he never givs any answer ("you are boring", "I'm not interested" and so on). The only way for him to "survive" with his nonsensical view.
Yes, he can answer only the questions he wants.
But what's the benefit for a forum when the poster who posts by far the most about such subjects always comes with strange statements - and then avoids any discussion. What's the benefit, really.
Ingebrigtsen is not a 3:26 athlete - give your opinion to this.
What about comparisons to Coe over 800m? And that he has not a good 10000m so far (only reason: to put him down). What's the point of this when we know that (so far) he is a runner from 1500m to 5000m?
I could continue with many more examples. But you avoid to give any comment to this. You prefer to come with such laughable statements like: "We can be wrong", "I accept different opinions" and so on.
And that your wife - who probably has never read any post of Armstrong - laughed about one of his hundreds stupid replys he does (for only one reason): to avoid the discussed point.
I only can laugh about your stupid comments - you are getting closer and closer to your friend.
My favorite encounter with Army was after a long discussion about how Mo Farahs and Jakobs difference in PBs in the 5000 weren't significant enough to be relevant for the discussion, only for Army to reveal he thought Farahs PB is 12:50, when his PB is 12:53
Then later on he claimed that Jakob can't have a claim to be one of the all time greats in the 5000 because he's 20th on the all time list, and when it was pointed out that Farah is outside of the top 50 Army tried to blame super shoes, introduced in 2016, for why Farahs PB in 2011 placed him at #25 by the time he achieved it.
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