I have gone back to the opening post to recall exactly what Cram reportedly was saying about Jakob:
1. Jakob is too distracted by the 5000m AND
2. He won´t break the 1500m/ mile WR before he improves his speed. (to be discussed in a later post).
Ad. 1.
Cram seems to mean that long distance training compromises Jakob´s speed development. Most posters on this thread seem to be of the same opinion - that training of endurance comes on the expense of speed - but is it true?
Another former WR holder (in the 800m, 1000m and mile) seems to have another opinion:
Peter Snell who after his running career became a renown scientist (PhD in exercise physiology) has in several interviews described how an athlete can train both slow and fast muscle fibres in the same training session. The mechanism should be: To run long and fast enough to exhaust the slow muscle - depleting the glucogen deposits - whereafter first normal fast (2a) fibres are recruited and after further running some seldom fast (2b or 2x) fibres take over. In this way an athlete can train both the slow and 2 types of fast muscle fibres in the same training run. AND THEREFORE IN THE SAME TIME IMPROVE BOTH ENDURANCE AND SPEED.
It should also be possible to recruit the 2 types of fast muscle fibres by good intensity interval training.
In this old letsrun thread regarding a later interview with Snell he calls the above mechanism one the most important findings in his scientific career.
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But one thing is theory another praxis. Is there any evidence that this works in real life?
I will provide some evidence in my next post.
You chose to skip over many 800m gold medalists and more than several 800m world record holders. Why are you quoting Peter Snell regarding 800m training? If Peter Snell were 12 to 27 years old today, Snell would have been an 800m specialist. Fast shoes, fast tracks and modern training wouldn't make Snell a sub-3:29 1500m man today. If Snell were age 12 to age 27 today, he wouldn't train as he did. The last 800m Olympic gold medalist who trained in a similar manner to Snell, Steve Ovett. Ovett underachieved, 800m if we judge by personal best.
600m man ! You are completely missing my point.
I am quoting Snell as an insightsful scientist in exercise physiology who also happens to have a practical knowledge about training from his running career. And............
Snell´s insight in this context is that with the right aerobic training you can activate both your slow and fast muscle fibres in the same training session.
As predicted, third post. Again wrong (didn't get the point so far). Insult.
At least seven more posts from him until he gets it. Probably much more.
Puttemans' 1973 indoor record over 2 Miles astonishingly was set indoors. Seems way beyond Army's understanding. For over 20 years it was the fastest 2 Miles time.
Name the facility where he set this record. You are also unaware that his record was bettered the following year by Viren. It did not stand for "20 years". But in any case this BS is irrelevant to the thread. Go and waste space somewhere else.
Armstrong have you realised that you was wrong about this question? If not, here is the documentation:
As you can see it is the 2 miles all time list. Emile Puttemans set his WR in February 1973 in an INDOOR meeting in Berlin. Puttemans is no. 52 on the list. 8:13.2h
Skah broke the record almost 20.5 years later with 1 second. Skah is no. 42 on the list. 8:12.17
Because Kerr went all-out to catch and pass Jakob. He was hanging on the last 50. Meanwhile Nordas saved his energy for the final straight because he wasn't keying off any particular runner...
You have to rewatch the race -Kerr is glued to Jakob’s back 460/470m away from the (finish) line when Nordås starts his kick very gradually from the back of the field (some ten meters behind Jakob / Kerr. And yes, both Kerr and Jakob have run wider bends than Nordås so far (but that is the name of the game for freakish kickers like Beamish and Nordås - they save energy by running relaxed at the tail and rail). But when Nordås is coming like a fraight train on the last lap (and especially on the home straight) he is running far far wider than of course Jakob but even Kerr, and has a significantly better lap time than even the winner Kerr. - That is what I call a freakish kicker..!
And that might be a factor in the coming champs -maybe Nordås is a guy that can run faster on the last lap (than f.ex Jakob and Josh, even if he is as exhausted / lactated as his competitors..!
You have to rewatch the race -Kerr is glued to Jakob’s back 460/470m away from the (finish) line when Nordås starts his kick very gradually from the back of the field (some ten meters behind Jakob / Kerr. And yes, both Kerr and Jakob have run wider bends than Nordås so far (but that is the name of the game for freakish kickers like Beamish and Nordås - they save energy by running relaxed at the tail and rail). But when Nordås is coming like a fraight train on the last lap (and especially on the home straight) he is running far far wider than of course Jakob but even Kerr, and has a significantly better lap time than even the winner Kerr. - That is what I call a freakish kicker..!
And that might be a factor in the coming champs -maybe Nordås is a guy that can run faster on the last lap (than f.ex Jakob and Josh, even if he is as exhausted / lactated as his competitors..!
Again, I think you are making more of it than there is. Nordas' "freakish kick" was barely enough to beat Federico Riva yesterday. I think your analysis is like looking at Rui Silva and picking him as the man-to-beat because of how awesome his last 100 was in Athens. Ultimately, the guy who wins in an outdoor 1500 is most likely going to be someone mixing it up in the top 3 with a lap to go. We'll see if Nordas becomes that guy, but if he's kicking from the back in most cases he will racing for at best 2nd and more likely 3rd/4th. He benefited a lot from Jakob and Yared each having their worst races of the season.
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You chose to skip over many 800m gold medalists and more than several 800m world record holders. Why are you quoting Peter Snell regarding 800m training? If Peter Snell were 12 to 27 years old today, Snell would have been an 800m specialist. Fast shoes, fast tracks and modern training wouldn't make Snell a sub-3:29 1500m man today. If Snell were age 12 to age 27 today, he wouldn't train as he did. The last 800m Olympic gold medalist who trained in a similar manner to Snell, Steve Ovett. Ovett underachieved, 800m if we judge by personal best.
600m man ! You are completely missing my point.
I am quoting Snell as an insightsful scientist in exercise physiology who also happens to have a practical knowledge about training from his running career. And............
Snell´s insight in this context is that with the right aerobic training you can activate both your slow and fast muscle fibres in the same training session.
Which events were your events, T&F? No harm of you took up running later in life. No harm if you were a field participant. I had a XC and T&F coach who never participated, XC or T&F. He tried hard. He meant well.
I don't need to read any comments from anyone to know there are tradeoffs, sprinting, middle distance and long distance training. There are only 168 hours in a week. If an athlete trains one way, by default other elements of athletic development suffer.
Snell won two 800m gold medals, partly due to T&F was mostly a European North American thing. Africans were not participating in large numbers, early 1960-something. I don't know details of Snell's performances under 800m. On another thread, posters stated Snell was incapable of sprinting sub-11 100m. If that is true, clearly 100 plus mile per week training retarded Snell's speed development.
The question we don't know is how much can a top athlete improve on their best - because they all have limits. The point raised by Cram, which provoked this debate, is that there are limitations in Jakob's toolkit - namely his "speed" - which he would somehow need to improve to take the wr. It isn't a given that he can do that.
I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on the fact that Jakon CANNOT set the 1500m WR. I just spoke with my former collegiate coach, who actually is an exercise physiologist and his opinion mirrors yours - he just doesn't have the overall leg speed which is needed to compliment his exceptional LT and aerobic power. If he wants WR's, it's best if he pursues the 3000 and 5000 which he CAN get. Let the 1500 go as far as the WR is concerned.
You and this exercise physiologist are trying to make an assessment of what a 23 year-old phenom who has already crushed other world records can or cannot achieve?
Name the facility where he set this record. You are also unaware that his record was bettered the following year by Viren. It did not stand for "20 years". But in any case this BS is irrelevant to the thread. Go and waste space somewhere else.
Armstrong have you realised that you was wrong about this question? If not, here is the documentation:
As you can see it is the 2 miles all time list. Emile Puttemans set his WR in February 1973 in an INDOOR meeting in Berlin. Puttemans is no. 52 on the list. 8:13.2h
Skah broke the record almost 20.5 years later with 1 second. Skah is no. 42 on the list. 8:12.17
He has not realised it and he will never admit to it. He just can't. As in countless similar issues.
I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on the fact that Jakon CANNOT set the 1500m WR. I just spoke with my former collegiate coach, who actually is an exercise physiologist and his opinion mirrors yours - he just doesn't have the overall leg speed which is needed to compliment his exceptional LT and aerobic power. If he wants WR's, it's best if he pursues the 3000 and 5000 which he CAN get. Let the 1500 go as far as the WR is concerned.
You and this exercise physiologist are trying to make an assessment of what a 23 year-old phenom who has already crushed other world records can or cannot achieve?
????????
I look at it differently. I think he can get the mile WR no doubt, the 3:26.00 is pretty tough but I have no doubt he's strong enough or will be strong enough, to split through 1200 in 2:45.5 and either get really close or beat it. I think he has the ability. I get it, there is SOME finite speed one must have at shorter distances to even be able to run 3:26.00 but nobody knows for sure if Jakob has that, or not. We have no idea what he's even doing in training and it's been years since he's even attempted an all-out 800.
Again, I think you are making more of it than there is. Nordas' "freakish kick" was barely enough to beat Federico Riva yesterday. I think your analysis is like looking at Rui Silva and picking him as the man-to-beat because of how awesome his last 100 was in Athens. Ultimately, the guy who wins in an outdoor 1500 is most likely going to be someone mixing it up in the top 3 with a lap to go. We'll see if Nordas becomes that guy, but if he's kicking from the back in most cases he will racing for at best 2nd and more likely 3rd/4th. He benefited a lot from Jakob and Yared each having their worst races of the season.
Firstly: No freak kickers will be this in every race (not even Beamish) -there are far too much disturbance from external and coincidentally factors to have such a never fading feature…
Narve’s 1500m win in Spain wasn’t by a freakish kick, I agree in that. And I’m not surprised, because he has always needed some races to find both his kick, but also his overall speed fitness (because he doesn’t do “speedy” intervals at all).
There have always been guys who seemed to be freak kickers, but wasn’t really. I may be wrong, but I think f.ex Steve Ovett was one of those: A very good kicker if the finish time was 1 or 2 sec away from his pb / real capacity, but seldom in an all out race…
Freak(-ish) kickers are IMO guys who can even run a pb finished with a kick -a very rare breed…
I am aware of Rui Silvas amazing last lap in Athens. So let’s say that made him a freak kicker, but why is that an argument against Nordås -surely this category has place for more than just one or two or three athletes in history..! Saying that I’m not sure that this race qualifies Silva (not pb like), and maybe the only, (that) freakish, he had..?
Nordås has a lot of freakish races (kicks), f.ex some “slowish” 3000meters. The latter ones may be indicators for his freakish ability, but they may also be something most athletes can do when the average pace is slow, so I choose not to count those, here…
My point is the rare ability to kick when at pb pace in a race: Nordås has two 3.29 races -both against almost the complete world elite, and in both races he had the fastest lap of all! (Despite wide running..!). I have mentioned his WC 2023 run, but Bislett / Oslo Diamond league is also extremely striking: 300m from the finish line he is 5-6 m behind the main field of 10-12 guys (had to give this gap a lap earlier, running the race without draft for quite a bit). But on the home straight the gap has disappeared, and he is even gaining on Jakob who eases away (from the others) to a new pb. And he is very near the guys who beats him…
Well, Narve has had pb races where he wasn’t that sharp on the last lap I believe (can’t check everything; I’m not a nerd!) -f.ex in the mile and 2000m. But these were after WC, and he clearly got a reaction after the champs (a slightly down)…
Why do I write all this? Because I think running and racing and training are far far more complex (to understand) than most of us are willing to acknowledge. And therefore we get things from authority (like Cram, Wightman, Kerr) that some think is “rubbish” (Jakob, Narve, ObjectiveObserver who lately has argued convincingly, and myself). But there seems to be very individually factors we may miss -maybe Jakob and Narve (and a Beamish for that matter) shouldn’t run all alike (to get an optimal race) at all. They may have individual paces and very different lap times that suit them the best -maybe not even that bad to have to run wide on the last lap. And a WR run for Jakob may (ideally) have different splits from what most of us think…
Again, I think you are making more of it than there is. Nordas' "freakish kick" was barely enough to beat Federico Riva yesterday. I think your analysis is like looking at Rui Silva and picking him as the man-to-beat because of how awesome his last 100 was in Athens. Ultimately, the guy who wins in an outdoor 1500 is most likely going to be someone mixing it up in the top 3 with a lap to go. We'll see if Nordas becomes that guy, but if he's kicking from the back in most cases he will racing for at best 2nd and more likely 3rd/4th. He benefited a lot from Jakob and Yared each having their worst races of the season.
Firstly: No freak kickers will be this in every race (not even Beamish) -there are far too much disturbance from external and coincidentally factors to have such a never fading feature…
Narve’s 1500m win in Spain wasn’t by a freakish kick, I agree in that. And I’m not surprised, because he has always needed some races to find both his kick, but also his overall speed fitness (because he doesn’t do “speedy” intervals at all).
There have always been guys who seemed to be freak kickers, but wasn’t really. I may be wrong, but I think f.ex Steve Ovett was one of those: A very good kicker if the finish time was 1 or 2 sec away from his pb / real capacity, but seldom in an all out race…
Freak(-ish) kickers are IMO guys who can even run a pb finished with a kick -a very rare breed…
I am aware of Rui Silvas amazing last lap in Athens. So let’s say that made him a freak kicker, but why is that an argument against Nordås -surely this category has place for more than just one or two or three athletes in history..! Saying that I’m not sure that this race qualifies Silva (not pb like), and maybe the only, (that) freakish, he had..?
Nordås has a lot of freakish races (kicks), f.ex some “slowish” 3000meters. The latter ones may be indicators for his freakish ability, but they may also be something most athletes can do when the average pace is slow, so I choose not to count those, here…
My point is the rare ability to kick when at pb pace in a race: Nordås has two 3.29 races -both against almost the complete world elite, and in both races he had the fastest lap of all! (Despite wide running..!). I have mentioned his WC 2023 run, but Bislett / Oslo Diamond league is also extremely striking: 300m from the finish line he is 5-6 m behind the main field of 10-12 guys (had to give this gap a lap earlier, running the race without draft for quite a bit). But on the home straight the gap has disappeared, and he is even gaining on Jakob who eases away (from the others) to a new pb. And he is very near the guys who beats him…
Well, Narve has had pb races where he wasn’t that sharp on the last lap I believe (can’t check everything; I’m not a nerd!) -f.ex in the mile and 2000m. But these were after WC, and he clearly got a reaction after the champs (a slightly down)…
Why do I write all this? Because I think running and racing and training are far far more complex (to understand) than most of us are willing to acknowledge. And therefore we get things from authority (like Cram, Wightman, Kerr) that some think is “rubbish” (Jakob, Narve, ObjectiveObserver who lately has argued convincingly, and myself). But there seems to be very individually factors we may miss -maybe Jakob and Narve (and a Beamish for that matter) shouldn’t run all alike (to get an optimal race) at all. They may have individual paces and very different lap times that suit them the best -maybe not even that bad to have to run wide on the last lap. And a WR run for Jakob may (ideally) have different splits from what most of us think…
Nobody can kick off of PR pace and that’s why strength runners often push the pace. If the pace is slower than PR pace, a runner can accelerate and if faster, he’s going to tie up near the finish.
If you check the splits for WRs, they’re usually even, with no significant increase in pace over the last lap.
Firstly: No freak kickers will be this in every race (not even Beamish) -there are far too much disturbance from external and coincidentally factors to have such a never fading feature…
Narve’s 1500m win in Spain wasn’t by a freakish kick, I agree in that. And I’m not surprised, because he has always needed some races to find both his kick, but also his overall speed fitness (because he doesn’t do “speedy” intervals at all).
There have always been guys who seemed to be freak kickers, but wasn’t really. I may be wrong, but I think f.ex Steve Ovett was one of those: A very good kicker if the finish time was 1 or 2 sec away from his pb / real capacity, but seldom in an all out race…
Freak(-ish) kickers are IMO guys who can even run a pb finished with a kick -a very rare breed…
I am aware of Rui Silvas amazing last lap in Athens. So let’s say that made him a freak kicker, but why is that an argument against Nordås -surely this category has place for more than just one or two or three athletes in history..! Saying that I’m not sure that this race qualifies Silva (not pb like), and maybe the only, (that) freakish, he had..?
Nordås has a lot of freakish races (kicks), f.ex some “slowish” 3000meters. The latter ones may be indicators for his freakish ability, but they may also be something most athletes can do when the average pace is slow, so I choose not to count those, here…
My point is the rare ability to kick when at pb pace in a race: Nordås has two 3.29 races -both against almost the complete world elite, and in both races he had the fastest lap of all! (Despite wide running..!). I have mentioned his WC 2023 run, but Bislett / Oslo Diamond league is also extremely striking: 300m from the finish line he is 5-6 m behind the main field of 10-12 guys (had to give this gap a lap earlier, running the race without draft for quite a bit). But on the home straight the gap has disappeared, and he is even gaining on Jakob who eases away (from the others) to a new pb. And he is very near the guys who beats him…
Well, Narve has had pb races where he wasn’t that sharp on the last lap I believe (can’t check everything; I’m not a nerd!) -f.ex in the mile and 2000m. But these were after WC, and he clearly got a reaction after the champs (a slightly down)…
Why do I write all this? Because I think running and racing and training are far far more complex (to understand) than most of us are willing to acknowledge. And therefore we get things from authority (like Cram, Wightman, Kerr) that some think is “rubbish” (Jakob, Narve, ObjectiveObserver who lately has argued convincingly, and myself). But there seems to be very individually factors we may miss -maybe Jakob and Narve (and a Beamish for that matter) shouldn’t run all alike (to get an optimal race) at all. They may have individual paces and very different lap times that suit them the best -maybe not even that bad to have to run wide on the last lap. And a WR run for Jakob may (ideally) have different splits from what most of us think…
Nobody can kick off of PR pace and that’s why strength runners often push the pace. If the pace is slower than PR pace, a runner can accelerate and if faster, he’s going to tie up near the finish.
If you check the splits for WRs, they’re usually even, with no significant increase in pace over the last lap.
Nobody can kick off of PR pace and that’s why strength runners often push the pace. If the pace is slower than PR pace, a runner can accelerate and if faster, he’s going to tie up near the finish.
If you check the splits for WRs, they’re usually even, with no significant increase in pace over the last lap.
I just told you (and others) that Nordås twice (and also Beamish twice in the steeple) kicked off of PR pace, and your conclusion is nobody can..?
Nobody can kick off of PR pace and that’s why strength runners often push the pace. If the pace is slower than PR pace, a runner can accelerate and if faster, he’s going to tie up near the finish.
If you check the splits for WRs, they’re usually even, with no significant increase in pace over the last lap.
I just told you (and others) that Nordås twice (and also Beamish twice in the steeple) kicked off of PR pace, and your conclusion is nobody can..?
It's likely Nordas is better than his PR. Running the way he did isn't optimal. I'd look for him in an evenly paced 1500 to improve his PR.
Here’s a little appendix to my post about how different athletes may need different pace. It’s from a VG interview with Jakob (20 th of March 2024), behind a pay wall (Mostly about training):
Jakob Ingebrigtsen: – No one knows what we do! You can almost Google your way to how the brothers train in the run-up. But the period before the race is misunderstood, according to Jakob Ingebrigtsen. Jakob Asserson Ingebrigtsen believes that many people misunderstand how he trains before important races, and that no one is interested in it. In the run-up, he runs 190 km a week and 25-30 percent of the sessions are intervals. In the last 4–6 weeks before the race, however, he adjusts his training He points out that Henrik, Filip and himself react individually to training. - Our system is very well established throughout the world. But people are not that interested in the most important things, says Jakob Asserson Ingebrigtsen to VG. In the run-up (October to May) he normally runs 190 kilometers a week. Around 25-30 percent of the sessions are intervals. Two days a week are usually "double threshold" - that is, two sessions on the same day where you run at a pace that is at the highest load you can withstand with a stable lactic acid level in the blood. - The system is a foundation wall. The stronger and wider the foundation wall, the better you can make the roof. And it is the ceiling that makes up how fast you run. With only a foundation wall, you can only run "so" fast, says the 23-year-old. By "the ceiling" he means training more specifically in the last period of four to six weeks before the race. - It is one of the most important things we do. No one there knows what we do! Nobody is interested in it, and it is very misunderstood, says Ingebrigtsen. Jakob's tips for exercisers "The most important thing is to do something you can manage week in and day out. For most people, it's about doing something that's fun. Then you may want to have intervals, but that is not something you need in principle. You need to run: Run as much as you can, as often as possible and for as long as possible. If you run seven days a week, 30 percent of the sessions can be intervals. Do something that is fun, that you can do for as long as possible. Many push themselves down a little too much, so they don't have any surplus in their muscles to accept the training they do." He has the impression that many people think they train equally with a "double threshold" also during periods around competitions. - The ON people have started training double threshold with a lot of volume. This summer I heard that they ran it as competition-preparatory training. It's just wrong... Then you've misunderstood, says Ingebrigtsen and continues: - It has nothing to do with competition. 6x5 minutes is a good basic training session, but you must not do it before you run a race! It's completely brain dead! People think we do it all summer, but then you have to do other things. - Can you reveal what you do in the period before the race that people don't know about? - It is nothing very special. But it's about how many hard sessions we have, and how hard they are. From time to time you can train at a slightly lower threshold and at other times a little faster. - Here I think there are many barriers, in that they leap a lot over the threshold, and then a little above it again. Then you tend to get injured. He points out that Henrik, Filip and himself react very individually to the training. - Filip and I respond very differently to threshold training. Filip could run very well in races over many thresholds and be very "fresh". While I was broken down. - If we went straight from a gathering period to a race, he could beat me easily. Whereas if we had a bulk period and relaxed a bit before the race, I took him easy. There is something happening at the cellular level that is different. - Do you train the same before championships now as before? - Both yes and no. After ten years of doing pretty much the same thing, there's still something I change from championship to championship. It can be small things, but also sessions where you miss a bit. - One of the hardest sessions I had before the Olympics in Tokyo was pretty good, but it wasn't as specific as I would have liked. I started at medium speed and increased the speed, then the session became too big with too little speed to be as good as possible. Before the WC last year, we went down on drag and rather up on speed and break. - How much has the training changed? - It is in perpetual development, but the philosophy is the same. But you can go in different directions within philosophy, Filip and I have quite different directions to Henrik, even though we have very similar experience, physiology and understanding of training. This means that we can have good discussions to arrive at the best. - I think that is unique! PS! He takes part in the Bowerman Mile on May 25 in the United States. There he meets his rival Josh Kerr.
I am quoting Snell as an insightsful scientist in exercise physiology who also happens to have a practical knowledge about training from his running career. And............
Snell´s insight in this context is that with the right aerobic training you can activate both your slow and fast muscle fibres in the same training session.
Which events were your events, T&F? No harm of you took up running later in life. No harm if you were a field participant. I had a XC and T&F coach who never participated, XC or T&F. He tried hard. He meant well.
I don't need to read any comments from anyone to know there are tradeoffs, sprinting, middle distance and long distance training. There are only 168 hours in a week. If an athlete trains one way, by default other elements of athletic development suffer.
Snell won two 800m gold medals, partly due to T&F was mostly a European North American thing. Africans were not participating in large numbers, early 1960-something. I don't know details of Snell's performances under 800m. On another thread, posters stated Snell was incapable of sprinting sub-11 100m. If that is true, clearly 100 plus mile per week training retarded Snell's speed development.
Now you are asking, I will tell you a "little bit" about my background and prove by my own example that you can be a good runner over many distances in the same period.
From age 11 to age 51 I was mainly a soccer player on a high (amateur) level. I was very fast (for a soccer player) and had a good acceleration. When I was a veteran I was doing some self training running (fore example: 7km at 4 min. per km) to strengthen my endurance, primarily in the off season. I had flirted with running several times in my soccer career. Also by participating in a random national veteran Championship in my mid fourties ( I ran high 25 in the 200m, high 55 in the 400m and 2:13 in the 800m (exhausted from the 400m)).
When I was 51 I decided to start running more seriously because there were national championships for veterans in Aarhus, Denmark in the late summer and next summer there would be European champs in the same place.
I only had some few weeks to prepare for the national champs. I was running some 400 and 600m reps in the road side.
At the champs I ran the 1500m the first day and the 800m the next day. I was able to hang on to the best on both distances and then winning by a good sprint finish. I ran 4:35 in the 1500m and 2:18 in the 800m. I think I won both races with about 1.5 sec.
In the autumn I participated in a number of races:
5000m (low 19), 3000m (10:10), 2000m (6:25), 1500m (4:43 ; enough to win) and 800m (2:15).
Then a 13.3 km (the famous Eremitage run) which I ran in about 4min. per km. My calf muscles were so sore that I had to walk a couple of times. Then a 7.5 km road race ( still with very soar calf muscles) in about 27:25 Which I think equals a 37 in the 10km. My split time for the 5000m in this road race was just over 18 min. so despite sore calf muscles I had improved my endurance a lot after my many races over different distances that autumn.
I then started in one of the best running clubs north of Copenhagen doing long distance training in the vinter period and in the early spring. During the early season I improved my 800m time to 2:14 and then a jump to 2:09. In the veteran EC I qualified to the final in both the 800m and the 1500m ending in the back of the fields, but with good PBs: 2:07.5 and 4:29.
You could then ask: what about my speed. According to your opinion it should be compromised by running and training long distances. BUT I MAINTAINED MY SPEED:
My 400m at 52 was low 57 (high 56 in a training). I don´t think I ran 200m and 100m that year but next year I ran 26.6 in the 200m and 13.3 in the 100m. That is not top times for a veteran sprinter but respectable for an 800m runner who also is able to run 37 in the 10km. And my 200m time was relative to my age faster than the high 25 which I ran when I was 7-8 years younger.
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About Snell: You still don´t grasp that Snell improved BOTH his 800m PB (new WR) AND his 10km X country race time dramatically by DOING MARATHON FOR SOME FEW BASE TRAINING PERIODS. In the X country race he was one the last in the big field in the first year, no. 4 second year and no. 1 third year.
Snell was very fast in the 800m also with today´s standard. His 1:44 on grass has -by other posters - been equaled to a 1:42 flat on the best tracks today ( I agree with this). If Snell could run close to 11 on a dirt track it would be a great time for a MD runner! I will address that question in (perhaps) my final post here (regarding Jakob´s 200m and 800m ability)
Firstly: No freak kickers will be this in every race (not even Beamish) -there are far too much disturbance from external and coincidentally factors to have such a never fading feature…
Narve’s 1500m win in Spain wasn’t by a freakish kick, I agree in that. And I’m not surprised, because he has always needed some races to find both his kick, but also his overall speed fitness (because he doesn’t do “speedy” intervals at all).
There have always been guys who seemed to be freak kickers, but wasn’t really. I may be wrong, but I think f.ex Steve Ovett was one of those: A very good kicker if the finish time was 1 or 2 sec away from his pb / real capacity, but seldom in an all out race…
Freak(-ish) kickers are IMO guys who can even run a pb finished with a kick -a very rare breed…
I am aware of Rui Silvas amazing last lap in Athens. So let’s say that made him a freak kicker, but why is that an argument against Nordås -surely this category has place for more than just one or two or three athletes in history..! Saying that I’m not sure that this race qualifies Silva (not pb like), and maybe the only, (that) freakish, he had..?
Nordås has a lot of freakish races (kicks), f.ex some “slowish” 3000meters. The latter ones may be indicators for his freakish ability, but they may also be something most athletes can do when the average pace is slow, so I choose not to count those, here…
My point is the rare ability to kick when at pb pace in a race: Nordås has two 3.29 races -both against almost the complete world elite, and in both races he had the fastest lap of all! (Despite wide running..!). I have mentioned his WC 2023 run, but Bislett / Oslo Diamond league is also extremely striking: 300m from the finish line he is 5-6 m behind the main field of 10-12 guys (had to give this gap a lap earlier, running the race without draft for quite a bit). But on the home straight the gap has disappeared, and he is even gaining on Jakob who eases away (from the others) to a new pb. And he is very near the guys who beats him…
Well, Narve has had pb races where he wasn’t that sharp on the last lap I believe (can’t check everything; I’m not a nerd!) -f.ex in the mile and 2000m. But these were after WC, and he clearly got a reaction after the champs (a slightly down)…
Why do I write all this? Because I think running and racing and training are far far more complex (to understand) than most of us are willing to acknowledge. And therefore we get things from authority (like Cram, Wightman, Kerr) that some think is “rubbish” (Jakob, Narve, ObjectiveObserver who lately has argued convincingly, and myself). But there seems to be very individually factors we may miss -maybe Jakob and Narve (and a Beamish for that matter) shouldn’t run all alike (to get an optimal race) at all. They may have individual paces and very different lap times that suit them the best -maybe not even that bad to have to run wide on the last lap. And a WR run for Jakob may (ideally) have different splits from what most of us think…
Nobody can kick off of PR pace and that’s why strength runners often push the pace. If the pace is slower than PR pace, a runner can accelerate and if faster, he’s going to tie up near the finish.
If you check the splits for WRs, they’re usually even, with no significant increase in pace over the last lap.
Peter Snell himself is a good example for how an athlete can improve BOTH his endurance AND his speed in the same time.
It is wellknown that Snell (at 19) started with marathon training because his trainer, Arthur Lydiard, convinced him that with his natural speed by developing his endurance he would be a top 800m runner.
Before the marathon training had a significant effect Snell competed in NZ´s X country champs over 10km and became no 56 out 58 competitors. But already next year after one more year of marathon base training he became no. 4 in the same X country champs so his endurance improved rapidly.
But what about his speed and his 800m times? They went down very fast too. Lydiard had said in order to go through 1:50 Snell just needed some more endurance because it wasn´t a problem to run 400m in 55 sec; he just needed some more stamina to run 2 of them in 55.
Before the Rome Olympics 1960 Snell´s 800m was down at 1:49 and he was with some public concern chosen to the NZ team as an internationally rather unknown 800m runner.
At the Olympics Snell due to his superior endurance used the rounds as sharpeners ( there were 2 heats the first day, then semifinal and final in 3 consecutive days). Snell broke his PB 3 times, the last time in the final with 1:46.48. A final where Snell famously outsprinted the heavy favorite, the Belgian WR holder Moens.
After Rome Snell continued with marathon training in the base training period and now he started to also bring down his mile times (from about 4:10 rapidly to a bit over 4. And then in 1962 where he would try to break 4 he not only did that but also broke the WR running 3:54.
His X country ability also improved since he managed to win this 10 km championship after Rome.
But what about the 800m? Was he able to maintain his speed? Well, he managed to break the WR with a 1:44.1 on a grass track. This record stood until Nick Willis came around.
But what about his finishing speed after all this marathon training? When Snell was at his best he had completely superior finishing power both in the 800m and the 1500m/ the mile. This can be seen in this video from from the Tokyo 800m and 1500m finals in 1964.
But did Snell have this superior endurance and speed because he in training BOTH TRAINED HIS SLOW FIBRES AND THE 2 TYPES OF FAST FIBRES?
He and Lydiard didn´t know the physiological explanation but they knew by experience that the 20 mile long sunday mountain run was beneficial for both endurance and speed.
In my next post I will give some recent examples of athletes who have improved their endurance and speed simultaneously.
Your points are interesting but I would differ in one significant aspect. Snell didn't work to try to actually increase his speed, only to "sharpen" for competition. He was always fast. It was his speed that persuaded Lydiard he could be a top 800 runner. But to succeed Lydiard believed he needed to increase his endurance, because he had learned from his training methods that even in an event like the 800 endurance was crucial. He proved this when Snell came to dominate an event that included faster runners - like George Kerr, who could run 21-low for the 200, or Bill Crothers, who could run 46 for the quarter.
Lydiard training wasn't designed to increase base speed. Snell's fastest 200, which was Lydiard's test for speed, was close to 22-flat. Jakob will be nowhere near that. I would estimate he wouldn't be much below 24. Training could sharpen that for his distance races but it won't make him significantly faster - a couple of tenths possibly but certainly not even half a second at that distance. Jakob has to use what he's got, which is less speed than his rivals over the distance but the edge in endurance.
Now you have claimed on so many threads and also in this one that Jakob has limited speed over 200m and 800m. Your “argumentation” seems to be: No way Jakob is as fast as your heroes of the past John Walker and Peter Snell who according to you ran high 22 and low 22 respectively in the 200m. To “prove” your claim you by sheer FANTASY (I am using one of your favorite terms) “estimate” that Jakob just only can break 24 in the 200m. I suppose you don´t know ANYTHING about Jakob´s 200m performance but I can disclose that he DID ran an indoor 200m at age 13 and 3 month. I would like you to guess how fast he ran BEFORE my next post where I also will provide a video of the race. Before I will, however, inform you about how fast good, young sprinters run in the 200m. In my athletic club we had a good young runner who came from soccer at the age of 12. At age 13 he ran low 26sec in the 200m. He went on to run high 23 in the 200m with 1.3 sec meter headwind in the national youth champs at age15 beating a number of talented young runners. He also won the 100m in 11.69 still with headwind. Unfortunately this runner went back to soccer so we don´t know how he would have progressed but I assume he would have been sub 23 a year or two later and at least sub 22 in adulthood barring illness and injury. I base this assumption on the fact that one of the guys my club mate beat in the above 200m did continue his athletic career. His name is Andreas Trajkovski. Here is a link to his IAAF page.
Andreas TRAJKOVSKI, Republic of North Macedonia - Long Jump, 100 Metres, 150 Metres, 60 Metres, 200 Metres, 4x100 Metres Relay, 4x200 Metres Relay Short Track
As can be seen Andreas ran 22.55 in the 200m at the age of 16 and a PB of 21.51 at the age of 18 and again at the age of 29! (will somebody tell Salvatore that his theory of a short window where an athlete can hold his peak shape has been shot down once more; another example was Marcin Lewandowski who had a streak period of 11 years where he was close to his 800m PB of 1:43.7). Andreas is by the way mainly a long jumper. So Armstrong, I think you should understand that the time you estimate for Jakob in the 200m is similar to what a talented (but not top) sprinter can run in his early teens? Do you think that is realistic? ----------------------- Do you have any idea what Jakob ran in the 800m at age 12 and age 14. If not, don´t you think you should have investigated this before you boldly claimed that he is an inferior 800m runner to most of the current milers? See my next post.
Your points are interesting but I would differ in one significant aspect. Snell didn't work to try to actually increase his speed, only to "sharpen" for competition. He was always fast. It was his speed that persuaded Lydiard he could be a top 800 runner. But to succeed Lydiard believed he needed to increase his endurance, because he had learned from his training methods that even in an event like the 800 endurance was crucial. He proved this when Snell came to dominate an event that included faster runners - like George Kerr, who could run 21-low for the 200, or Bill Crothers, who could run 46 for the quarter.
Lydiard training wasn't designed to increase base speed. Snell's fastest 200, which was Lydiard's test for speed, was close to 22-flat. Jakob will be nowhere near that. I would estimate he wouldn't be much below 24. Training could sharpen that for his distance races but it won't make him significantly faster - a couple of tenths possibly but certainly not even half a second at that distance. Jakob has to use what he's got, which is less speed than his rivals over the distance but the edge in endurance.
Now you have claimed on so many threads and also in this one that Jakob has limited speed over 200m and 800m. Your “argumentation” seems to be: No way Jakob is as fast as your heroes of the past John Walker and Peter Snell who according to you ran high 22 and low 22 respectively in the 200m. To “prove” your claim you by sheer FANTASY (I am using one of your favorite terms) “estimate” that Jakob just only can break 24 in the 200m. I suppose you don´t know ANYTHING about Jakob´s 200m performance but I can disclose that he DID ran an indoor 200m at age 13 and 3 month. I would like you to guess how fast he ran BEFORE my next post where I also will provide a video of the race. Before I will, however, inform you about how fast good, young sprinters run in the 200m. In my athletic club we had a good young runner who came from soccer at the age of 12. At age 13 he ran low 26sec in the 200m. He went on to run high 23 in the 200m with 1.3 sec meter headwind in the national youth champs at age15 beating a number of talented young runners. He also won the 100m in 11.69 still with headwind. Unfortunately this runner went back to soccer so we don´t know how he would have progressed but I assume he would have been sub 23 a year or two later and at least sub 22 in adulthood barring illness and injury. I base this assumption on the fact that one of the guys my club mate beat in the above 200m did continue his athletic career. His name is Andreas Trajkovski. Here is a link to his IAAF page.
As can be seen Andreas ran 22.55 in the 200m at the age of 16 and a PB of 21.51 at the age of 18 and again at the age of 29! (will somebody tell Salvatore that his theory of a short window where an athlete can hold his peak shape has been shot down once more; another example was Marcin Lewandowski who had a streak period of 11 years where he was close to his 800m PB of 1:43.7). Andreas is by the way mainly a long jumper. So Armstrong, I think you should understand that the time you estimate for Jakob in the 200m is similar to what a talented (but not top) sprinter can run in his early teens? Do you think that is realistic? ----------------------- Do you have any idea what Jakob ran in the 800m at age 12 and age 14. If not, don´t you think you should have investigated this before you boldly claimed that he is an inferior 800m runner to most of the current milers? See my next post.
That's a pretty strained argument, to refer to Jakob's times at age 13 to make an argument he has speed. The comparison also with another runner is irrelevant - he isn't Jakob.
The only 400m time I am aware for Jakob is his listed pr, which is 51secs, achieved when he was 16. He will undoubtedly be faster now but I don't think it will be much. He will have added substantially to his endurance since then but speed is less amenable to large improvements.
There are several reasons why I think he lacks speed. If he was faster he would have recorded better 800 times than 1:46-47, and he would have been good enough to compete over the distance. He isn't - so he doesn't. Cram was a sub 1:43 runner over the 800 and is believed to have run at least 23s for the 200. He is undoubtedly faster than Jakob. Snell was a 22s runner for the 200 and a 1:44 runner over the 800 (on grass). Jakob is nowhere near that. Elliot ran 1:46x - the same as Jakob - on a dirt track. He was a 50s runner over the quarter. That I believe is closer to where Jakob is located. Nowhere near 48s.
The simple fact is if Jakob could run 22x for the 200 (and so 47-48 for the 400) he would be a world class 800/1500 runner, and not a 1500/5k runner.
But further to that, we see that Jakob doesn't have the speed of some of his 1500 competitors; if they are with him at the finish he can be outsprinted. His strength, so to speak, is his phenomenal endurance, not his speed.
Nobody can kick off of PR pace and that’s why strength runners often push the pace. If the pace is slower than PR pace, a runner can accelerate and if faster, he’s going to tie up near the finish.
If you check the splits for WRs, they’re usually even, with no significant increase in pace over the last lap.
except for Jim Ryun.
I guess that’s a joke. His mile WR was run 1:58/1:53 and his PR was not 3:56.
