We like to have 1 thread per topic so we merged two threads together and kept the title of this thread. The other thread was entitled, "Assefa performance."
I could be persuaded that some of these magic potions are real if you could provide some supporting facts that suggest doping can provide all these benefits you believe.
No you couldn't.
This is probably the most dishonest thing you've ever said on this forum, and that's certainly saying something.
Sure I could.
But we will never know until someone can provide the relevant facts to back up all these wild claims. I usually just get fallacies and insults and accusations of lying.
Abebe Bikila won the Olympic GOLD running bare foot, yes running bare foot and destroying the like of Emil Zatopek............ Only man to win 2 Olympic Gol mendals in history.
Just to correct you. 1. Zatopek was retired before Bikila won his first Olympic gold. 2. Plenty of men have won 2 Olympic Gold medals. The aforementioned Zatopek won 3 in one Games. However, being kind and assuming you meant (but forgot) to refer specifically to the Marathon.... Cierpinski in '76 and '80, as well as Kipchoge in '16 and '21 can also make that claim. (Btw at least one of those athletes has something likely in common with Assefa - can you guess what it is?).
I'm sure time will prove that you are as wrong with your claim that Ethiopians wouldn't dope for moral/societal reasons.
Let what sink in? You cannot compare apples to oranges. You just end up with a fruit salad.
For comparison purposes, Abebe Bikila's world record is not a particularly fast time as a reference. Even in its own era, by the end of the decade, just 5 years later, Derek Clayton had run a 2:09:36 (not counting the disputed short course time of 2:08:33).
If you truly followed the evolution of the sport, a lot has happened in the marathon since the 1960's, with respect to event specific training, professionalism, event specialization, nutrition, clothes, and shoes, not to mention designing courses to be fast, and the use of drink stops and pacemakers, and the widespread participation of large populations of lightweight talented athletes from regions of athletes born and raised at altitude.
I just wonder what Bikila would be capable of today, with modern training, and modern shoes, on a cool September morning on a fast Berlin course with a group of pacemakers, including one as far as the Brandenburg gate.
Exactly.
Very stupid of Gault to include Bikila's story without disclaimer.
Gault could have just gone back even to ~1900 had he wanted to prove that Assefa is faster than those OLDDDD men's records. He took Bikila's as he was an Oly winning Ethiopian but that was stupid too, ofc.
Mamo Wolde was a 400 meter runner representing Ethiopia in the 4x400 relay at the Melbourne Olympics. Eight years later he placed 4th in the Tokyo 10,000 meters (won by Billy Mills). Is it possible for a 400m runner to do this without doping? If you assess the additional contextual info I left out then there is nothing remarkable. And Wolde went on to to the marathon, medaling in the Mexico City and Munich Olympics. Tigist Assefa also made a leap in about the same time interval (7 years) from 800m to the marathon. Why was she running the 800? Look at the Ethiopian roster for Rio 2016 in the longer distances. In the 800m her teammates were Gudaf Tsegaye and Habitam Alemu. Alemu still runs the 800m and competed in Budapest last month.
Mamo Wolde was a 400 meter runner representing Ethiopia in the 4x400 relay at the Melbourne Olympics. Eight years later he placed 4th in the Tokyo 10,000 meters (won by Billy Mills). Is it possible for a 400m runner to do this without doping? If you assess the additional contextual info I left out then there is nothing remarkable. And Wolde went on to to the marathon, medaling in the Mexico City and Munich Olympics. Tigist Assefa also made a leap in about the same time interval (7 years) from 800m to the marathon. Why was she running the 800? Look at the Ethiopian roster for Rio 2016 in the longer distances. In the 800m her teammates were Gudaf Tsegaye and Habitam Alemu. Alemu still runs the 800m and competed in Budapest last month.
Mamo wolde wasnt a world class 400 runner though.Not even close.
Okay, so no facts. Got it. Thank you for admitting that you have nothing but conjectures here.
I suppose you're waiting for proof that OJ did it, too.
This is it... we see athlete busts all the time and we all know the history of drugs in the sport and just how easy it is to evade testing, but we aren't supposed to even speculate? LOLz
This is probably the most dishonest thing you've ever said on this forum, and that's certainly saying something.
Sure I could.
But we will never know until someone can provide the relevant facts to back up all these wild claims. I usually just get fallacies and insults and accusations of lying.
Wanna buy some rainbow unicorns? 50% discount this week
“Although the rHuEpo-induced increase in key hematological parameters in these altitude-adapted Kenyan endurance runners was blunted compared with white athletes living and training at or near sea level, the relative improvements of ~5% and ~3% in running performance immediately after the rHuEpo administration and 4 wk after the last injection, respectively, were similar in both groups. This finding is also in line with the overwhelming scientific literature.”
I found everyone one of these studies unconvincing. It's not clear they properly represent and reflect the realities and conditions of elite performances.
The 2011 survey esimate is unreliable because it is clear that many athletes did not comply with the instructions. The authors themselves enumerated all the ways the survey responses can be non-compliant to the survey instructions. They are unable to know which forms of non-compliance apply, and to which degree. The best they could do is to provide a set of equations based on the unknown degree of non-compliance. One obvious and credible form of non-compliance, lying about doping, is expected to be minimized by guaranteeing anonymity, so we should not expect that source of non-compliance to be large (or else the whole approach of anonymous surveys would be worthlessly unreliable.)
They did recommend addressing just one form of non-compliance, and eliminating "automatic yes" responses (similar to clicking "I agree" when installing software, without reading the terms) by disregarding the fasted 30% of responses which clearly showed a bias. But even this exercise does not guarantee all of the unreliable responses have been removed.
The same 2011 survey collected another set of responses from the very same 2011 athletes, using a different survey method to arrive at an estimated prevalence of 20% and estimated non-compliance of 30%, with rather wide 95% confidence intervals due to the large degree of non-compliance.
The conclusion of the 2011 study is that survey approaches are promising, but need refinement to guarantee compliance, or detecting non-compliance.
While multiple EPO and blood doping studies may have shown short term improvements over the few weeks under observation, the question relevant to real world performances is whether these improved results are faster than is possible clean. None of the EPO or blood doping studies showed athletes in the study exceeding their clean personal bests after administration of doping.
The study on Kenyan runners took runners equivalent to 8:00 capability for 3000m, and had the Kenyans run an initial time trial in ~9:20, and a doped time trial in ~9:00. It brings no informative value to have these Kenyans tempo their 3000m time trials at half marathon to marathon pace. To demonstrate EPO effectiveness would require having these 8:00 caliber Kenyans running 7:50 or 7:40.
These are not the only shortcomings: most of the studies are on amateurs; most are not blinded; many do not control the initial state of training and lack control groups; most have small sample sizes; distances like the mile (e.g. Jakob) and the marathon (e.g. Kipchoge and Assefa) are never studied; the studies do not realistically mimic training and racing; etc.
Last but not least, most studies acknowledge their limitations and caution against projecting the limited findings onto the elite performances of elite athletes.
The sport is likely to continue on this path of indifference to doping, and now mechanical cheating. I believe there is no possible way to have a clean sport, unless every newborn on this planet has micro robots in their bloodstream that can monitor for drugs and unreasonable hormonal spikes for the rest of their lives. As someone noted, if strict testing/monitoring were put into place for adults, then minors would still be able to get away with it so it's not enough. So basically, this option is just not viable.
The only way to go from here is to just openly allow doping. Parents continue to be responsible for their kids and people can go to jail for doping minors. Beyond that, why keep pretending no is doping while it remains to easy to? Just make it an open freak show already and let's see how low these records can go. We will have genetic doping down the road anyway so nothing is going to prevent the sport from getting dirtier. The 80s was nothing, lol.. today you can engage in highly customized, safer and effective doping programs. And it's cheap and accessible. Pull your heads out of the sand people.
But we will never know until someone can provide the relevant facts to back up all these wild claims. I usually just get fallacies and insults and accusations of lying.
Wanna buy some rainbow unicorns? 50% discount this week
Case in point -- again no facts, just facetiousness.
I'm not buying doping myths nor rainbow unicorns, at least not without any relevant supporting facts.
Wanna buy some rainbow unicorns? 50% discount this week
Case in point -- again no facts, just facetiousness.
I'm not buying doping myths nor rainbow unicorns, at least not without any relevant supporting facts.
How many 'several years after the fact' busts of athletes, coaches and other scandals do you need to see before you start using common sense? This isn't a court room. You've got to be extremely gullible.
You have set outstanding records for posting on the LR WFMB. No one has been able to post at a similar rate. So, its doping that has enabled this. Double entendre.
Hey Armstrong. You once said that if Athing Mu ever ran below 1:55 that she is a doper. So are you ready to declare her a doper? will be waiting for your response.
Unlike you I am not so stupid as to insist that doping be narrowed down to a couple of hundredths of a second, especially in a md race. When I suggest 1:55 is about the clean limit I don't mean 1:55.00. Only a drongo would assume that. It is a ball-park. But the ball-park is clearly established by 1:53.2.
Lol. You said specifically that is she goes below 1:55 she is doping. Big surprise that a potty mouth like yourself would not stick to your word.
Thats cool,but most olympic final level 800 meter women have muscles,funny jaws,noticeable adams apples and strange shaped bodies that training alone cant account for.
Um - have you seen Hodgkinson?
His 22nd post today, just in this thread. How often in them has he called other posters to be stupid? Definitely at least 10 times.
He absulutely clearly has stated before, that any women below 1:55 clearly is doping. According to this, his limit is somewhere above this mark. Athing Mu has run below that mark, but he won't state she is a doper (little bit surprising, isn't it?). But instead of just agreeing that he now thinks his initial statement was not true, he calls the poster who points on it to be stupid.
There are HUNDREDS of examples for exactly this same behaviour from him.
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