This thread was originally titled, "Incredible development in the $612,000 Transcon Goodge run, currently ongoing" but the new title is more descriptive. The description of the run is here.
Why wouldn't he simply cut the HR reading all together to avoid suspicion? That's an option on Strava and Garmin right? Just show pace and distance?
Hi Jasper, it would be hugely suspicious if he simply never ran with an HR on his charity fundraisers because he does in everything else. HR is a great marker for how fit you are, the effort, whether you actually did it, etc.
Of course we are all incredibly familiar with wrist monitors and you seem to be speaking more in general about chest ones. I have been through thousands of runs' data and they're absolutely fine. I took 100 major ultra runs and I couldn't find a single km out of place let alone an entire run. In other words, my experiment scored 100% Your argument is the same as Balenger, Goodge, Roll an Kostelnick's: That this equipment by Garmin and Coros is useless. It's not, occasionally it freaks out sure, but only very occasionally, and nothing like the identical patterns of these two, of crashing to around 100-110 for vast periods and entire days.
I guess I am weird. But I still think about how the cheating occurred. I like that finality of knowing how they did it like we got with Rob Young.(riding in the truck)
I still think the most plausible scenario is that Will and Robbie ran different portions of the daily routes at the same time. Then they merged the data at the end of the day into one run. Then uploaded to strava.
A lot to be said for that. RB is the inventor of this method, with his Transcon having identical unique markers back in 2019, and then he was glued to WGs side for Jogle, 48/30 and now this.
What is truly bizarre is how little running he did at WGs Transcon. Why wasn't he slamming down 90 mile weeks? Why did he barely ever run with WG? He had a savage 24 hour race just around the corner [which he badly collapsed on]. I saw him come out to play just a couple of times in 5 days.
This was the absolute perfect environ to do some serious miles. They ridiculed me for runnng up and down the highways saying I looked crazy... I got in 40 miles, one of my best training shimmies for years! Totally over their heads.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
I was talking about major brands like Polar (regarded as the best in the industry, wrist or strap). And I've personally worked in a running store for many years, clients have always complained about the innacuracy of wrist HR. I've had Garmin and polar reps admit that it's basically useless except for resting HR readings and HRV. I myself have had innacurate readings during races (zone 1 readings at 10k pace).
Do you have any idea of his HR training zones? Max HR and resting HR?
PS: just checked his official races namely the Paris half marathon and Zurich marathon. HR extremely low and erratic at few instances despite the pace. His half time (1:25) suggesting that he is more than capable of running a sub 3.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
I was talking about major brands like Polar (regarded as the best in the industry, wrist or strap). And I've personally worked in a running store for many years, clients have always complained about the innacuracy of wrist HR. I've had Garmin and polar reps admit that it's basically useless except for resting HR readings and HRV. I myself have had innacurate readings during races (zone 1 readings at 10k pace).
Do you have any idea of his HR training zones? Max HR and resting HR?
PS: just checked his official races namely the Paris half marathon and Zurich marathon. HR extremely low and erratic at few instances despite the pace. His half time (1:25) suggesting that he is more than capable of running a sub 3.
And I've checked out Walton - what an incredible and dedicated runner. Yes, one run in 20 or 30 flunks, the others are absolutely fine. Hovering around the 148 range for 30k in 2:05.
So this is a 5% fail rate, a bit higher than most, but Balenger and Goodge are both failing at 90% for 4.5 years, in identical fashion, and only at very, very specific times [big, expensive, media hyped charity fundraisers with a high difficulty tariff.]
Goodge's Paris half is perfect - 154 - no problem with that. And it's not 1:25, it's 1:28 [elapsed time]. He stops at least once, hence bringing down a K or two's HR. I am NOT concerned with the odd blemish! I'm talking about over 15,000k, by two runners, eight events and about 6 watches.
As for Zurich, he deviates between 157-171 between Kms 4 to 42. I've never seen such a rock steady, perfect HR. You're completely misunderstanding the problem which is countless HR collapses to about 100.
Yes, I know WGs HR zones perfectly. He has one of the highest HRs on Strava as he's so new to the sport. When he's "on the level" he's way higher than most normal runners, regularly breaching 180 in the marathon - as high as 189 - yikes.
Why wouldn't he simply cut the HR reading all together to avoid suspicion? That's an option on Strava and Garmin right? Just show pace and distance?
That's what I thought. But I think he relies on heart rate to judge his pace for the sections he is actually running.
Correct. When he ran a section with GB International Charlie Grice he begged CG to back off because his heart was spiking and he was going into the red. They ran a tidy 8 miles or so together under a broiling sun. When I asked CG if he'd be surprised to hear that WG then ran long sections later in the day far quicker than they had done, he said he was staggered.
**Edit, just looked up that day. 20k splits of 2:26, 2:28, 2:28, 2:14. Now that's smoooooooooth. HR for the day, you guessed it, 109.
It is fascinating to compare what WG did on day 11, to Hoffman's Wr on day 11. WG 83k, JH 84k.
20k splits:
WG 2:26 2:28 2:28 2:14 JH 2:25 2:32 2:17 2:35
He's gone toe to toe with a legendary run and smashed it out the park in the all important fourth quartile.
JH needed a far bigger rest too, and was out there for 11:54 to WGs 11:25.
This post was edited 16 minutes after it was posted.
And on another note, with the Rich Roll podcast taking WG even MORE into the limelight, us runners [dismissed by him as "losers" and "maggots"] need to show our voice, so here's a petition to ask WG, RB and their many sponsors to kindly cease and desist from their mercenary activities, as they're damaging to the sport.
On a personal note, their key defence is that I'm a mad loner barking in the dark, who is "deluded", has "a hard on for a dead man" and can't get over the death of my long deceased mother who I apparently "hated". [Bit of a choice non-sequitur that I know].
So do give this a sign if this thread has moved you at all, and let's keep taking on this spectre of "Digital Doping" with gusto and verve!
Great work Will. I've signed. I'm still dismayed that people still fall for this charade. It's so simple to see, or mabe we could see him in a race to replicate a similar day to his transcon or jogle.....oh wait.....he's shown his hand trying that.
Have a look at Walton's 2:28 London marathon. Using strap HR (widely considered superior to wrist) he has an average HR of 124. A couple of km @3:20 pace and 89HR. I could point to many other athletes that have consistent patterns like this on Strava.
Another point, why would WG's half marathon HR average be lower than his fastest marathon effort?(both have perfect readings according to you and both recorded in a similar training period).
The way I see it: I'm sure WG doesn't care or understand HR training, doesn't really know his training zones at all. And how does one fake running cadence? And why would you bother to fake cadence and not bother about consistent HR readings?
Having talked to some pretty serious runners (including Walton), they know pace and can gauge effort really well. Just pace and breath awareness is usually enough.
Last point: I've just noticed that he wears his Garmin on his tattoo (right wrist). Had a look on Garmin's website and found this:
Does wrist detection work with tattoos? Can Garmin read heart rate through tattoos? The ink, pattern, and saturation of some tattoos can block light from reaching the sensor, potentially making it difficult to get a reliable heart rate reading. This can cause either inaccurate readings or a lack of readings all together.
Last point: I've just noticed that he wears his Garmin on his tattoo (right wrist). Had a look on Garmin's website and found this:
Does wrist detection work with tattoos? Can Garmin read heart rate through tattoos? The ink, pattern, and saturation of some tattoos can block light from reaching the sensor, potentially making it difficult to get a reliable heart rate reading. This can cause either inaccurate readings or a lack of readings all together.
Interesting stuff
Hi, I'll take these two comments together.
If Walton is a tad kooky at times, I have no problem with that. His numbers and heart rate are absolutely not comparable to WG in any way, and he's chest; this is a wrist debate. Maybe his chest monitor reacts strangely with his body. All I know is that I've checked him out and he's 95% clean. Also, at least 124 is not 105. But I checked out his London from April and he's at 167, absolutely rock steady pulse.
You are focussing on the odd anomaly. They happen. If we took 100 runs randomly off Strava, 98.5 would be absolutely fine, and all your talk about representatives at Polar saying their equipment is useless, and people coming into your shop saying it's all garbage, is a mistruth. You keep pointing me to Walton - he's fine, clearly - just occasionally his chest strap goes haywire. Very occasionally.
Why would a half marathon be lower HR than a marathon?! Because in this case the half is a dreadful 88! What the heck is a full-time runner doing carding an 88? I wasn't that good but am taking him out by over 20 minutes. It wouldn't have even got into our women's D team. His heart rate for the marathon is higher because compared to a half, the marathon is a nightmare. The half didn't scare me at all, but the marathon is a shocker from about 10 miles in.
I'm not sure he is faking the cadence that much. I haven't really looked into them, but a top statistician says they're unintelligible. One for another day.
The tattoo is very minor, and does not affect him for 99% of his running, or for when he races, or for when I write to them to tell them to show me a pulse, or when I observe him. It only affects him for big multiday fundraisers about twice a year [but never on day one].
If that is the heart of this mystery, that is one magic tattoo.
Just want to throw in my support for Will C. I finally made it through the thread after listening to the disappointing RR episode. It's a bit sus to me that both RR (who I generally like) and WG are affiliated with Whoop and On Running, as if Rich might have felt pressure to have the guy on, and keep the whole conversation light? I don't know. Also, just took a peek at the Strava and WG's comments to his detractors are really embarrassing. He sounds like a 13-year-old schoolyard bully. In the world of ultrarunning this really sticks out, and RR tried to frame WG as somehow representing "diversity" in ultrarunning?! Lol. The low heart rates in the second half of the days, as many others have already said, just don't make sense imo, even at the slow pace he was running. I've only seen those heart rates in Olympic marathoners and world-class trail runners out for an easy run in the mountains (Kilian, Sophia Laukli being two examples).
I think the Goodge camp like the HR data chat. it distracts from the fact that a bog average hobby jogger in events with chip timing, spectators and photographers miraculously becomes a world class athlete when these things are removed. and all while bragging about his lack of training.
you don’t need HR data to know he simply isn’t capable of doing what he claims to have done.
Statistically speaking (and you can check this) HR averages are going to be a lot higher over the half marathon distances than over the marathon. Often closer or at threshold for the elites. Individuals running higher than that during their marathon are going to have a horrible day.
Finally, saying that a 88 minutes half is dreadful is offensive to most runners and elitist. I myself, am working considerably to go below 1:25 and find it extremely difficult. Most people would kill to get back to 88 Min fitness.
Statistically speaking (and you can check this) HR averages are going to be a lot higher over the half marathon distances than over the marathon. Often closer or at threshold for the elites. Individuals running higher than that during their marathon are going to have a horrible day.
Finally, saying that a 88 minutes half is dreadful is offensive to most runners and elitist. I myself, am working considerably to go below 1:25 and find it extremely difficult. Most people would kill to get back to 88 Min fitness.
I could not have been more clear. 88 is dreadful for a full-time pro, who claims he is one of the best, most pioneering ultrarunners in the world. This is indeed an elitist chat. This is about someone saying they're way better than one of the finest British endurance runners of all time, who can't defend himself. It's about the hundreds of thousands he's earning due to his elite status in the sport. It's about the near 50 products he's selling to get people running to his refined level. It's about his sponsor calling him, "the world record holder".
My comment is about context, and you have ignored that. 88 is indeed way above average for most who do running for fun. He should be able to find 76-78 with some ease, but he doesn't because he barely trains.
As for HR always being higher in the half than the full. Not necessarily. He was clearly cruising in the half and battering himself in the full.
Finally, saying that a 88 minutes half is dreadful is offensive to most runners and elitist. I myself, am working considerably to go below 1:25 and find it extremely difficult. Most people would kill to get back to 88 Min fitness.
I don't usually dis people's efforts but 88 min is pretty slow. Our sunday run group used to run that every week and were taking it easy.
The way I see it: I'm sure WG doesn't care or understand HR training, doesn't really know his training zones at all.
I'm like 50% sure you're another bad actor here — trying to obfuscate the conversation. Or you're, no offense, not quite as seasoned in the sport as some other posters here.
Heart rate zones are often just astrology for slow runners. We're not talking about HR zones. Almost no one fast cares one bit about them. We're talking about observed trends over many many runs and you're pointing out a small percentage of anomalies and trying to distract.
The way I see it: I'm sure WG doesn't care or understand HR training, doesn't really know his training zones at all. And how does one fake running cadence? And why would you bother to fake cadence and not bother about consistent HR readings?
Enough about the heart rate. In and of itself the heart rate stuff is not enough to discredit or prove anything. But under the totality of the circumstances, it's one of many factors that, taken together, discredit this guy's run. Note also, this guy could have cleared up the strange heart rate data by providing his GPS data files. His team even promised to release them. They never did, and never will. That's telling.
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