May as well join the 'Endurance" / "Speed' scrap. Some info on Snell : He was the Owairaka Athletic Club 200m record holder for quite a few years : 22 secs flat on a Grass Track. Also a little story : Many years ago in the middle of a foul Auckland winter Arthur Lydiard had a crew doing repetition 800's on Blockhouse Bay Road ... on a slight down hill section .. Snell struggled through a session and got a lot of banter from the crew .. he had not beaten 2 minutes !!! .. One week later, same workout .. Last rep .. Snell 1:42 ... banter stopped ... I was not there but a close Mate was. Catch ya again soon.
Sure. That ranks with the Glenn Cunningham High School 4 minute mile story.
Which part? Snell regularly ran 22-low in training for the 200.
Is 1:42 with a downhill section out of the question for a 1:44 runner on grass?
You're totally dishonest. That is what many are effectively suggesting, including you - otherwise you're simply arguing he could one day run faster than 46. That isn't the issue and I'm not debating that. If the question is whether he could double over the 400 that would require he be world class over the distance, which is at least 44-low - 2 seconds faster than he has ever run. But if you're giving up on that then you're conceding he won't be.
An astonishing claim for you. Most of the people in this thread are speculating him one day running 44-mid to 45-low in the open 400, which would be exceptional speed for an 800m runner. Not unprecedented, but quite good. Which you are acting like it's some insane concept.
To make your "point" you then not only falsely say everyone is saying he'll run 44-low or faster, and then making a hare-brained argument that he is a strength based 800m runner with barely any room improve on a mark he ran at age 16 on a double. You say that without any real reason to say so besides arbitrary statements about his 200m speed, and comparison to old farts. Then there is your extreme view that Lutkenhaus is a slow 800m runner in sprinting ability and most everyone else's which is that he is a very fast one with high potential in the 400, and perhaps some untapped potential in the 1500 to be exciting if not world class.
I'm not expecting that he could double for the US in the open 400 outdoors, because it would have to mean a) the schedule allows for it b) he is capable of running sub-44 given the USA's strength. That's a different level. Running on a relay team is different, though. And if he gets a bye for Worlds, that's also different. If Lutkenhaus was from a different country that didn't typically have half of the world's top 15-20 400m runners in most years, this would be a different conversation.
OK, lets deal with facts shall we. The final at World Indoors by 400 PBs: Lutkenhaus 46.30 at age 16 doubling Crestan 46.79 at age 25 fresh Attaoui 48.80 at age 20 fresh Bol 47.20 at age 22 fresh Bloudek 48.08 at age 18 fresh Clay 47.19 at age 17 double
To quote Tommy Lee Jones in "The Fugitive" "Do you want to change your BS story, sir?"
If you took a look at 1500 PBs Attaoui and Bol would destroy Cooper's PBs there. He won because he is fast, strong, but most of all in the 800 speed is strength if you harness it properly.
He is still nowhere near the 400 runner that he is over the 800 - yet you say he has run the event plenty of times. I don't know why you trying to make him out to be what he clearly isn't and never will be, which is a 400 runner of equivalent ability to his 800 ability.
This was Armstrong's quote: "As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final."
Then it was shown to him that CL was indeed by far the fastest over 400m (with a time at age 16 while doubling) in the recent world indoor final.
Then he replied that CL isn't as good over 400m then he is over 800m.
Armstrong never - really never - will just agree when he was proved to be wrong (which happens quite often).
You guys are all missing the point. The real question is, what can Geordie Beamish run for 400? I mean, he has quite a devastating kick. Maybe he can make the NZ 4x400.
This post was edited 24 seconds after it was posted.
He is still nowhere near the 400 runner that he is over the 800 - yet you say he has run the event plenty of times. I don't know why you trying to make him out to be what he clearly isn't and never will be, which is a 400 runner of equivalent ability to his 800 ability.
This was Armstrong's quote: "As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final."
Then it was shown to him that CL was indeed by far the fastest over 400m (with a time at age 16 while doubling) in the recent world indoor final.
Then he replied that CL isn't as good over 400m then he is over 800m.
Armstrong never - really never - will just agree when he was proved to be wrong (which happens quite often).
Guys, I’m not joking, these people who keep threads on LetsRun going endlessly are 100% either the brojos and Gault arguing with each other to amplify engagement, or they are random people who are being paid to increase engagement.
There is literally no way that psychos exist who spend all day every day arguing on LetsRun. On top of that, these accounts never respond to me when I directly call them out on their obvious engagement baiting.
It obviously works and can be entertaining, but it isn’t “real”.
This was Armstrong's quote: "As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final."
Then it was shown to him that CL was indeed by far the fastest over 400m (with a time at age 16 while doubling) in the recent world indoor final.
Then he replied that CL isn't as good over 400m then he is over 800m.
Armstrong never - really never - will just agree when he was proved to be wrong (which happens quite often).
Guys, I’m not joking, these people who keep threads on LetsRun going endlessly are 100% either the brojos and Gault arguing with each other to amplify engagement, or they are random people who are being paid to increase engagement.
There is literally no way that psychos exist who spend all day every day arguing on LetsRun. On top of that, these accounts never respond to me when I directly call them out on their obvious engagement baiting.
It obviously works and can be entertaining, but it isn’t “real”.
That could be true in some cases. For example the psycho keeping the Clevenger thread going just screwed up and forgot which name he was actually answering for (after admitting to two names among more than a dozen he actually uses) so now there’s no denying that he and surely others do this. The question is what is the benefit… or who benefits. Then there are guys like Armstronglivs who simply wish to be contrarian as it gets people to engage with them — because they have little personal contact with people in their daily lives. Strange for sure.
I agree with you about Snell, but I think Cooper is more on the speed end of the spectrum than was Snell.
In addition to winning the 1962 New Zealand x-country Championship (and NZ had some decent distance runners at that stage) he also beat the legendary Sir Murry Halberg (winner of the Olympic 5000m, 30 min after Snell's first Olympic 800m win) over 2000m.
Cooper isn't going to have that kind of capacity, as he's a faster type of runner. I think he's getting closer to Keely, who I've had said was an 800m specialist, but with more speed development is now more a 400/800m type.
Against a world-class 800m field Cooper has more speed, rather than more endurance than most.
I agree that Snell had more endurance which is also why he was great over the 1500/mile. But I think Lutkenhaus is towards the endurance end of the 800 spectrum because there would be quite a few guys who could run 21 and 21-low over the 200, and he doesn't appear to be near that. As I previously mentioned, even Tim Courtney was a 21-flat runner, as was George Kerr, and Crothers was near that. Juantorena was really fast - 20.7. So far, I think CL looks like he could be a 21-high guy - similar in that regard to Coe. But it's still pretty fast and certainly fast enough to dominate the 800.
Cooper was faster than Coe ever was as a 15 year old. Coe isn’t the comp you think he is.
Guys, I’m not joking, these people who keep threads on LetsRun going endlessly are 100% either the brojos and Gault arguing with each other to amplify engagement, or they are random people who are being paid to increase engagement.
There is literally no way that psychos exist who spend all day every day arguing on LetsRun. On top of that, these accounts never respond to me when I directly call them out on their obvious engagement baiting.
It obviously works and can be entertaining, but it isn’t “real”.
That could be true in some cases. For example the psycho keeping the Clevenger thread going just screwed up and forgot which name he was actually answering for (after admitting to two names among more than a dozen he actually uses) so now there’s no denying that he and surely others do this. The question is what is the benefit… or who benefits. Then there are guys like Armstronglivs who simply wish to be contrarian as it gets people to engage with them — because they have little personal contact with people in their daily lives. Strange for sure.
Armstronglivs argues just to argue. He does have some kind of vendetta against Americans in certain events. Hell, he admitted he hates Yanks so there’s that as well. You note that nut in the Clevenger thread, he’s similar but Armstronglivs uses one name and the Clevenger nutcase uses 50 names or whatever. Btw, you should see what he’s doing after getting caught, now he’s puttiing up long lists of posts he attributes to one guy. Just like Armstronglivs he constantly projects. So your statement that Armstronglivs is contrarian just to get or force people to engage is likely hitting the bullseye. These guys are just two of more than a few posters like this.
Armstronglivs is bothered that a kid at 17 is showing so much more talent, so far, than Snell or Coe. You would think that an old man would realize that’s the way it goes. No matter how good someone is, eventually someone more talented comes along.
Coe ran 6 x 800m (downhill) in 1.52 average (1.5min recovery).
But it was downhill. How can his workout be used as a comparable? Mike Boit ran a 3:28 downhill mile.
It was a slightly rolling course. It was talked about by Coe several times and you can see it in “Born to Run”. Neither he nor Snell ran any 800 in 1:42 in training, downhill or not. No one has. Yet. 😜
Nobody is doing that. I’m glad you’ve abandoned your arguments though.
You're totally dishonest. That is what many are effectively suggesting, including you - otherwise you're simply arguing he could one day run faster than 46. That isn't the issue and I'm not debating that. If the question is whether he could double over the 400 that would require he be world class over the distance, which is at least 44-low - 2 seconds faster than he has ever run. But if you're giving up on that then you're conceding he won't be.
He wouldn't need to be AS GOOD in the 400 as he is in the 800 to double on a 4x400. He is World Champ level in the 800. Our 4x400 guys are not all World Champ level in the 400. They are very good, but they are often 44 mid guys. Cooper would only need to run 1.8 seconds faster than he did as a high school sophomore, off a double, before his 1:42 breakthrough, to get to that level. It's not at all unrealistic to think he can achieve that.
You're totally dishonest. That is what many are effectively suggesting, including you - otherwise you're simply arguing he could one day run faster than 46. That isn't the issue and I'm not debating that. If the question is whether he could double over the 400 that would require he be world class over the distance, which is at least 44-low - 2 seconds faster than he has ever run. But if you're giving up on that then you're conceding he won't be.
He wouldn't need to be AS GOOD in the 400 as he is in the 800 to double on a 4x400. He is World Champ level in the 800. Our 4x400 guys are not all World Champ level in the 400. They are very good, but they are often 44 mid guys. Cooper would only need to run 1.8 seconds faster than he did as a high school sophomore, off a double, before his 1:42 breakthrough, to get to that level. It's not at all unrealistic to think he can achieve that.
He wouldn't need to be AS GOOD in the 400 as he is in the 800 to double on a 4x400. He is World Champ level in the 800. Our 4x400 guys are not all World Champ level in the 400. They are very good, but they are often 44 mid guys. Cooper would only need to run 1.8 seconds faster than he did as a high school sophomore, off a double, before his 1:42 breakthrough, to get to that level. It's not at all unrealistic to think he can achieve that.
1.8s would put him at 43.5r
His pr is 46.3. 1.8 seconds puts him at 44.5. 44 mid in the open 400 is good enough to put him on many USA 4x400s.
His pr is 46.3. 1.8 seconds puts him at 44.5. 44 mid in the open 400 is good enough to put him on many USA 4x400s.
He was probably noting Coop’s 45.3 anchor leg last season as a 16 yr old soph. That’s why he wrote 43.5. Just part of his day’s work in that meet. He really is blessed in the talent department. Snell and Coe obviously did not possess the raw speed of this kid. Hope he continues to improve.
You're totally dishonest. That is what many are effectively suggesting, including you - otherwise you're simply arguing he could one day run faster than 46. That isn't the issue and I'm not debating that. If the question is whether he could double over the 400 that would require he be world class over the distance, which is at least 44-low - 2 seconds faster than he has ever run. But if you're giving up on that then you're conceding he won't be.
He wouldn't need to be AS GOOD in the 400 as he is in the 800 to double on a 4x400. He is World Champ level in the 800. Our 4x400 guys are not all World Champ level in the 400. They are very good, but they are often 44 mid guys. Cooper would only need to run 1.8 seconds faster than he did as a high school sophomore, off a double, before his 1:42 breakthrough, to get to that level. It's not at all unrealistic to think he can achieve that.
I'll suggest why it is unrealistic. Firstly, 45.3 in a relay is still over 46 from blocks. That would put him in the company of Tom Courtney, George Kerr and Bill Crothers, who all ran 46 flat - but in pre modern shoes and on dirt. They were also 21-flat runners over 200. We have yet to see anything like that from Lutkenhaus, who has yet to run below 22 secs.
But the more significant comparison is with another age prodigy, Quincy Wilson. Wilson has improved one tenth of a second over the 400 since he was 16. He then ran 44.2 and his best is now 44.1. So ONE TENTH. He will be doing well to go below 44. There is no likelihood that he will achieve a second faster let alone 1.5-2secs. Lutkenhaus will likely be able to run sub-46 but sub-45 or better is a real stretch. The price of maturing young is that improvements become harder to come by. Amos never ran the 800 faster than he did in 2012 and Ryun never ran faster than he did at 19. I similarly expect the gains for Lutkenhaus to be marginal as he gets older.