Matt Hart's new Nike book is great - Salazar once tried to kiss Kara Goucher and said Solinsky ran 26:59 because of thyroid meds

Salazar used gray area doping in collusion with the corrupt Dr. Brown, with therapeutic use exemptions, asthma medications, thyroid hormone therapy, testosterone creams, L carotin, etc. He stayed ahead of doping controls for a long time, but they eventually got him on some minor infections compared to what he actually did for decades.

Much like Al Capone going down for tax evasion, Salazar got busted for a fraction of what he did. It was enough though and he is done in this sport.

His athletes did not fail a test but they used all kinds of shady medications and drugs as PEDs.

It appears both Portland Nike groups used Dr Brown and plenty outside those groups including Ryan Hall and Jenny Simpson used the corrupt doctor too.

The thing that struck me most is that running is a really terrible way to make a living and that Nike is incredibly cheap and petty. Not paying Kara while pregnant is pure BS. For her to find out when the expected quarterly deposit didn't show up is classless. The amount of money $100 -200 grand is insignificant to Nike, it was just another dick move by Capriotti. Same with not paying Ritzenhein when he was injured, especially when Salazar helped cause some of the injuries by playing with his form and then insisting he have surgery which turned into a prolonged nightmare. Again, Ritz was making $100 - 200 grand, Nike spends more than that on entertainment for customers and executives. These are top athletes, others were making $30-$35 grand. Other than Farah and Rupp no one was getting rich that's for sure. The market is what it is, so if an athlete is worth $30 grand on the open market Nike shouldn't over pay but they should honor the contract. How do they get by when they stop getting paid? Kara went a year without being paid while pregnant and Ritz had a family, I can't imagine how stressful that must have been.

I put that presumption there, because it sounded like you were arguing that no one was taking "EPO and testosterone and HGH and IGF and ESAs" in order to explain why it didn't work.

ZERO prevalence could also be trivially interpreted as "not working", but I don't make that assumption.

Let's put back the original goalposts. We were talking about "performances before Salazar/NOP/Schumacher/BTC", as allegedly the NOP/BTC performances used thyroid as the powerful enhancing element.

Take away NOP/BTC thyroid users Rupp/Solinsky, and 10000m looks much less impressive, with Pinto (27:12.5) and Roncero (27:14.4). Two possibilities: 1) dirty, then the best non-African non-thyroid doped times are quite far away from sub-27; or 2) clean, then the best doped times are even worse.

When the best possible non-thyroid times are 27:12 and 27:14, that doesn't look like all the other drugs "worked" very well for non-Africans, unless the explanation is that no one was taking them because prevalence among top non-Africans is ZERO.

5000m is slightly better, with three sub-13 non-thyroid runners: Baumann (12:54.7) and Mottram (12:55.8) and Al-Outaibi (heritage?) (12:58.6). Then the next best are Pinto (13:02.9) and Garcia (13:02.5) and Jager (13:02.4) and True (13:02.8).

Three non-thyroid runners marginally faster than a 1982 Moorcroft (13:00.4) hardly seem like a successful drug story either.

And I did say sub-27 and sub-13 -- effectively ruling out women, where arguably testosterone/steroids played a role for Russian and Chinese women.

drug drug wrote:

Salazar used gray area doping in collusion with the corrupt Dr. Brown, with therapeutic use exemptions, asthma medications, thyroid hormone therapy, testosterone creams, L carotin, etc. He stayed ahead of doping controls for a long time, but they eventually got him on some minor infections compared to what he actually did for decades.

Much like Al Capone going down for tax evasion, Salazar got busted for a fraction of what he did. It was enough though and he is done in this sport.

His athletes did not fail a test but they used all kinds of shady medications and drugs as PEDs.

It appears both Portland Nike groups used Dr Brown and plenty outside those groups including Ryan Hall and Jenny Simpson used the corrupt doctor too.

This is pure nonsense built on top of a lot of gossip.

Much of what Salazar did was made public in documentaries, email responses, interviews, leaked documents, and the AAA panel report. Much of it was simply not bustable because it was not against any rules.

It is simply not credible that with 30 witnesses coming forward, something more serious would still be hidden like an iceberg.

rekrunner wrote:

I put that presumption there, because it sounded like you were arguing that no one was taking "EPO and testosterone and HGH and IGF and ESAs" in order to explain why it didn't work.

Funny. They work very well, and I never said nor implied otherwise. I have the science, the experts, many many athletes and coaches on my side.

Your "argument" seems to be that Africans ran faster than doped and medicated non-Africans, therefore doping and meds don't work, for example by calling 27:12 "much less impressive".

The problems with that are that you don't know who doped with what, and, more importantly, what the difference between a clean African and non-African runner is.

Maybe the clean ceiling for a non-African runner (with yesterday's shoes) is 27:10? Then Rupp and Solinsky gained a lot.

Maybe it's 27:00? The Rupp with all his "tricks" gained 15 seconds, and Solinsky less than 1 second - but Solinsky might not be the most talented ever.

Maybe it's 26:40? Then Rupp and Solinsky could have achieved their times clean.

There are way too many unknows to conclude anything from these observations.

rekrunner wrote:

Three non-thyroid runners marginally faster than a 1982 Moorcroft (13:00.4) hardly seem like a successful drug story either.

This is a classical example of you jumping to conclusions based on your faith.

You neither know how Baumann doped, nor how Moorcroft doped, nor how fast they could have run clean. You don't even know whether or not Baumann was on thyroids!

Six seconds improvement from the 80s to the 90s are also not just "marginally faster", especially considering that to date. no non-African has bettered doper Baumann's time. Over 20 years, and counting. Face it, drugs work.

I said nothing about Africans -- that was not my argument, nor should that seem to be my argument.

My argument, looking at 10000m for example, plays out like this:

- if we are to believe, contrary to WADA's science and medical experts' unanimous conclusion, that thyroid explains Rupp and Solinsky sub-27 performances, and given that runners from the '80s like Mamede, Antibo, and Lopes were running 27:14-27:17s, and then, for the next 20-25 years, the best are running 27:12-27:14, exactly who are the best non-African examples that show "they work very well"?

Keep in mind, we don't know if Mamede, Lopes, Pinto or Roncero doped, so concluding "they work very well" for these runners would have to first make that assumption that they doped, in order to reach the circular conclusion.

Antibo we do know, took blood transfusions when it was not banned, but (reportedly) improved over a 5 year period after stopping blood transfusions, to eventually run 27:16.5 in 1989.

You could argue that 1985-2010 saw no improvements because the 1980s were also doped. Assuming 1980 times were doped, and "they work very well", this would have to put the clean non-African limit even lower, like 27:30 or 27:45 or even less.

The unknowns that prevent you from concluding anything also prevent you, and your experts, athletes, and coaches, from concluding "they work very well" for these clean 27:xx runners.

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Three non-thyroid runners marginally faster than a 1982 Moorcroft (13:00.4) hardly seem like a successful drug story either.

This is a classical example of you jumping to conclusions based on your faith.

You neither know how Baumann doped, nor how Moorcroft doped, nor how fast they could have run clean. You don't even know whether or not Baumann was on thyroids!

Six seconds improvement from the 80s to the 90s are also not just "marginally faster", especially considering that to date. no non-African has bettered doper Baumann's time. Over 20 years, and counting. Face it, drugs work.

It's pathetic to watch you try to argue I'm making conclusions based on faith when the statement is "hardly seems like ...".

There are a lot of different clean/dirty scenarios.

For all I know, and for all you know, Baumann's 12:54 performance could be clean, as he was drafted to a 5th place finish. Moorcroft's 1982 time could also be clean.

I only know Baumann was busted for steroids (reportedly sabotaged toothpaste) two years later, when he was running much slower.

So one possible Baumann scenario is 12:54 was clean, while 13:14 and 13:18 was dirty.

You cannot say Baumann shows drugs work unless you assume 12:54 was doped, enabling the circular conclusion. Without that assumption, there is no way to argue with Baumann "Face it, drugs work".

But the important measure here that is not faith is not Baumann, but the number 3: at most 3 non-Africans non-thyroid runners ran sub-13, over the course of nearly three decades before NOP and BTC runners.

So, who are the best example non-African examples that shows "they work very well"?

Salazar

Kennedy

Rupp

Solinski

Tegenkamp

Ritizenheim

Hall

Jenny Simpson

All on thyroid hormone therapy!

rekrunner wrote:

It's pathetic to watch you

Didn't you promise to stop with the insults?

rekrunner wrote:

I only know Baumann was busted for steroids (reportedly sabotaged toothpaste)

LOL. Not "reportedly" - using your standard, Trump "reportedly" won his re-election, hahahaha.

"allegedly" is the word you are looking for. To be precise: alleged by the drug cheat, a hilarious excuse à la the dog ate my homework that was ultimately rejected, leading to Baumann's ban.

As for

casual obsever wrote:

Funny. They work very well, and I never said nor implied otherwise. I have the science, the experts, many many athletes and coaches on my side.

"They" was in reference to your "EPO and testosterone and HGH and IGF and ESAs", not thyroid hormones, where the evidence is not as strong.

Note that I did not bring up Baumann as evidence, or arbitrary marks such as 13:00 - that is all your strawman that doesn't prove anything, as you just admitted, finally.

Finally, again, Rupp was on a whole lot more than thyroid hormones.

In any case, you will just keep insisting that you are right, and everybody else is wrong, and that drugs don't work, and that there is nothing to see here. so carry on.

drug drug wrote:

Salazar

Kennedy

Rupp

Solinski

Tegenkamp

Ritizenheim

Hall

Jenny Simpson

All on thyroid hormone therapy!

Don't know about Jenny -- haven't seen any real confirmation she had any treatment.

I don't know if Salazar took thyroid hormones either.

But even so, why not? It is not banned by WADA, and according to medical and scientific experts, there is no way to believe it is performance enhancing.

I promised what? Did I insult? I do prefer to avoid personal insults, but insulting your arguments is always fair game.

"reportedly", "allegedly"? It was reported.

I also understood "they" to mean "EPO and testosterone and HGH and IGF and ESAs".

Rupp was also reportedly on asthma medication, and at 16, some medication to boost testosterone. Salazar reportedly had an obsession with boosting testosterone legally with supplements like Alpha Male and Testoboost.

Thyroid meds is street slang for EPO.Im pretty sure they were all on cocktails of drugs similar to what the east africans use,and what the chinese used to use.Some of the athletes have a strange muscularity that is impossible to achieve when theyre thin as they are.Galen rupp looks like a ripped stick insect.Sifan hassan is an obvious example of EPO and low dose steroids mixed together.Theres no way a woman can be that thin,yet have muscular cuts,and a washboard stomach.I remember seeing chris solinsky and thinking 'jacked'.not as hardcore roided as lashawn merrit,but jacked nonethless.

And some ridiculed my claim years ago that there was something personal between Salazar and the Gouchers that nothing to do with training or doping.

Houlihan used conventional 2012 spikes in her 14:20s race.

rekrunner wrote:

Did I insult?

Yes. You like to do that to rile people up so they keep responding.

As for Baumann, for the millionth time, he was not banned because of "sabotaged toothpaste". Why do you keep lying about that?

Read the CAS decision. There you can also see his other made-up excuses which in part contradicted the "sabotaged toothpaste" story, e.g. his hair tests. 40 a - g. Ridiculo. Classical drug cheat response: throw ten crazy stories out there that you were clean, hoping one of them will stick.

My favorite: "The Athlete could not be so stupid as to risk detection..."

Hahahahaha.

But yes, some people still go with "sabotaged toothpaste" for Baumann, "menopause" for Decker, "beef" for.... I better stop here.

jeff tallon wrote:

Thyroid meds is street slang for EPO.

Maybe. I always thought that's a smokescreen to deflect from the various drugs usages.

Runners in the 70s and 80s were often blood doping, which the cycling community pioneered, and which we know is very effective. Lance was freezing his blood. So, it is equally possible that at least some of the many great European performances in that period (Finn, Spanish, and Italian blood doping are well documented) were in part the result of blood doping.

zxcvxzcv wrote:

Houlihan used conventional 2012 spikes in her 14:20s race.

Thank you - I stand corrected.