BUMP
BUMP
Any thoughts on a good way to structure a 5k training plan using Tinman approach for someone that doesn't race regularly or doesn't have a race season to peak for? I'd like to have a plan that I can regularly follow and allow me to peak for a race without planning out a whole bunch of workouts for me to do in advance. I have a decent aerobic base to begin with (steady diet of 60 mpw for many years) so do I still need to do a base phase? I'm thinking about doing a schedule like:
6-8 week training block:
Monday: Rest or 1 hour easy
Tues: CV Workout - 4 X 5 1000m (roughly 10k pace) with progressive recoveries each week followed by 4 X 200m
Wed : 1 hour easy
Thur: 1 hour easy + striders
Fri: 18-24 minutes tempo (half-marathon pace)
Sat: 1 hour easy
Sun: 90-120 minute hilly long run at easy pace (5k + 2 minutes / mile)
Down week every 3-4th week (cut mileage 50-70%), maybe do cross-training on elliptical
Alternate V02 workouts at 5k goal race pace with tempo runs every other week? Or replace CV runs with them at the 2nd half of training block?
Also, where would a good place to add short hill sprints in the training cycle? Can I add them on after tempo workouts or should they be done on fresh legs?
4 days of hill training per week? I believe you could run 15:45 but just think how fast you could run if you had
a recovery day one day per week?
runnerrunner100 wrote:
Can you list Andrew Hunter's progression from the age of 15 onwards
2013: 2:04/4:41/9:40
2014: 1:58/4:10/9:28
2015: 1:52/4:03/9:33
2016: 1:48/3:57 (mile)/8:43
2017: 3:36/8:14/13:49
2018: 3:35
2019: 3:37/ 7:39/13:21
Rippling Hysteresis wrote:
I'd love it if you would keep this thread going about training and progression. Perhaps I'm also a Tinman fanboy, but your thoughtfulness and thoroughness in training is cool to watch.
The thread is done, I might make a new one in the future. Or some videos. One last update:
Did some more races after the 16:10 Night Run 5k to try different things. After the Night Run on 9/24 I got sick (raced extremely hard), and had to take 4 days off.
10/6 - Tierschutzlauf 5k, 1st in 3:18/k (16:28) true 5k
Didn't want to race all-out, since I was still recovering. Followed a tall guy the first k, then he died and I moved to 4th position, around 10-15s behind the leader of the 5k (first two were 10k guys, including Olympian Vojta who was pacing a teammate). Most of this was below threshold, under 168 HR so well in control. 1k before the finish I was like, might as well go for it now and started hammering a long kick. Roughly 300m before the finish I passed the guy, picking up a bit to 2:40/k which was enough to drop him and take the win.
Splits: 3:16-3:21-3:25-3:26-3:00
10/13 - Kahlenberglauf (mountain race) 8.4k, 500HM/1640ft, finish on top. 6th place.
Signed up for a mountain race for a change. First climb was very steep and I got passed by many runners (top 5 were all mountain specialists). On the downhill, I was the strongest runner and passed some again, but then there was a long, 4k long final climb to the finish which was on top of the mountain. I cut my left hand with thorns on a downhill, when I couldn't make a turn I had to grab the thorn bush and it was a bloody, painful mess. Was in 8th position uphill, losing more time but easily passed 2 runners during the last 200m. I'm not good on mountains, and a 40 min race is WAY too long for me.
10/20 - FdL 5k, 1st in 3:21/k (16:27, but short according to watch, watch time 16:47 after I added)
2004 born little guy went out in 3:05, I decided to let him do his thing and settled around 10s behind him in 2nd place. After 2k I caught him and ran behind him for 500m to recover and evaluate the situation. When I noticed he is dieing and getting slower I picked it up and passed him strongly, race was over at that point. I was afraid of him coming back and looked back a few times, but after checking his PR's (2:58 1k, 9:34 3k) I noticed he doesn't have much speed and I was worried for no reason. He probably went out that hard to avoid a kick/sprint finish, his aerobic capacity is already very good for someone so young.
Splits: 3:14-3:23-3:25-3:25-3:17
2004 kid finished 2nd in 16:56 official, and a 2005 girl finished in 18:11.
Did a lactate threshold test as well on 10/16, results in my next post when I have time. The disappointing test results show what many here have constantly said - I was doing my "CV" intervals way too fast and destroyed my endurance.
Don`t you understand? Can't you see the light? What YOU need is one of the worlds very best coaches! You can't get Canova to coach you, but JS is always there to help out whatever level of the runner. You need some magic in your running!
Results of lactate test (red line). At all levels, I produce more lactate than I did in the last test (March, blue line).
2 mmol: 3:38 (March), 4:02 (October)
4 mmol: 3:26 (March), 3:34 (October)
The tester, an extremely experienced coach, said that my base endurance is worse and that is the reason why my pace falls off during longer races. He also says the difference between 2 mmol and 4 mmol is too big now and I have to work on that primarily in the winter. The test suggests that I can only run 34:46-35:50 10k on a track.
Now he wants me to run 1k reps in only 3:25-3:35 and 15-25x400 in 80s which seems WAY below my level.
This just shows how wrong lactate testing can be.
I improved in all areas, my easy runs are faster now, my CV 1k (~3:20-3:25) feel much easier and my race times are significantly better (4-6.5k race distance). During the test, 3:10/k at 9.7 mmol felt as easy as 3:20/k at 6.4 mmol during the last test, both were the last steps but this time I could have done even one more, but at same max HR. So why does the test tell me the opposite?
Anaerobic capacity. I improved my anaerobic capacity and speed so much, that it's pulling the lactate curve heavily towards the top left. I produce more lactate at each speeds, and my max lactate, which I could achieve in an all-out 400 or 600, is much higher now. Also my 400 speed improved significantly, I estimate from around 57 to 54. So even though my aerobic abilities probably IMPROVED, which would pull the curve slightly to the right, my anaerobic abilities improved so much more due to races in the last week and some hard workouts like the 3xMile so that the test fails to show that.
Currently, I'm sure I can run a 10k in like 34:00, which indicates that my current threshold is higher than 4 mmol, more at like 5-6 mmol which is typical for someone with a lot of FT-fibers.
Since my goals for the winter are 2:00/4:10 and then 15:30 in spring, I think I'm on the right way. I will definitely not slow down my 1k reps to 3:25-3:35 as he thinks, and neither adjust my HR for tempo runs and easy runs (he wants me to run them at lower HR..). We will see how this works out, maybe I will make a new thread but not sure how much time I have in the next weeks/months since I really need to finish my master's thesis.
You make the wrong conclusions and only a world class coach can help you to make it right!
That was a long post which basically says you don't believe in Tinman training and will refuse to do it.
my max lactate, which I could achieve in an all-out 400 or 600, is much higher now.
Prove it.
Also my 400 speed improved significantly, I estimate from around 57 to 54.
Prove it.
Looking at the inflection point on that graph it seems to me like your LT is bang-on 4 mmol.
Comparing to the blue line, the inflection point is much higher -- and faster -- which is a good thing. Having higher lactate at threshold is only a downside for the marathon when you need to be very efficient. Whether or not you ran your intervals "too hard" you did manage to raise your lactate threshold. But there's value in what that coach is saying. Raising your aerobic threshold speed will make it easier to improve your anaerobic threshold afterwards. If all you do all year is 1000s near 5k/10k pace then you'll be neglecting key aspects of your training.
An example: My 5k pace is 2:43 and my 10k 2:50/km. Right now, early season, my faster running is 3:20-3:30 for an hour a week and fartleks and intervals around 3:00-3:10/km. When it's time to sharpen up I can do intervals closer to 2:45-2:50/km but I can just as well just run an all out 5k or 10k and get the same effect. It's also a lot safer than countless race pace intervals. You can also get almost the same effect by doing something like 25x400 at 5k-10k pace -- maybe for you closer to 20x400 -- as long as you're actively working on the aerobic and anaerobic thresholds in longer reps.
If you're so convinced that you're "FT" and need to train differently then go buy a lactate meter, run all out 500m, and measure your lactate. Otherwise you're just guessing.
Piraat wrote:
Looking at the inflection point on that graph it seems to me like your LT is bang-on 4 mmol.
Comparing to the blue line, the inflection point is much higher -- and faster -- which is a good thing. Having higher lactate at threshold is only a downside for the marathon when you need to be very efficient. Whether or not you ran your intervals "too hard" you did manage to raise your lactate threshold. But there's value in what that coach is saying. Raising your aerobic threshold speed will make it easier to improve your anaerobic threshold afterwards. If all you do all year is 1000s near 5k/10k pace then you'll be neglecting key aspects of your training.
An example: My 5k pace is 2:43 and my 10k 2:50/km. Right now, early season, my faster running is 3:20-3:30 for an hour a week and fartleks and intervals around 3:00-3:10/km. When it's time to sharpen up I can do intervals closer to 2:45-2:50/km but I can just as well just run an all out 5k or 10k and get the same effect. It's also a lot safer than countless race pace intervals. You can also get almost the same effect by doing something like 25x400 at 5k-10k pace -- maybe for you closer to 20x400 -- as long as you're actively working on the aerobic and anaerobic thresholds in longer reps.
If you're so convinced that you're "FT" and need to train differently then go buy a lactate meter, run all out 500m, and measure your lactate. Otherwise you're just guessing.
That makes sense. But the coach uses 4 mmol ("Mader-standard") for comparison, and my pace at 4 mmol went from 3:26/k to 3:34/k.
I have done a lot of aerobic training in the past months, more mileage than ever before + cross-training. The only thing I "eliminated" were long, 90-120 min bike rides. Maybe this made the previous (blue) test look better than I actually was, because I was lacking muscular strength but was strong cardiovascular due to the long, easy rides.
The trainer said that training for an ideal threshold is slightly different than training for an optimal 800-5000 which what I'm trying to do.
He pretty much wants me to do lots of easy running at slightly different paces, a LR of 90-105 min and maybe sometimes 120 min, an easy tempo run 15-20/25s slower than my 10k (20 min tempo 15s slower, 40 min tempo 20-25s) pace and then one time 6-12x1000 in 3:25-3:35/k, right at or just slightly faster than the 4 mmol threshold OR in some weeks the 20-25x400 in 3:20/k. He wants to prevent me from producing too much lactate in these workouts.
My current 5k is 3:15/k (but think I could already go 3:12/k in an ideal race now), 10k guess 3:25/k. It stays interesting.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Piraat wrote:
Looking at the inflection point on that graph it seems to me like your LT is bang-on 4 mmol.
Comparing to the blue line, the inflection point is much higher -- and faster -- which is a good thing. Having higher lactate at threshold is only a downside for the marathon when you need to be very efficient. Whether or not you ran your intervals "too hard" you did manage to raise your lactate threshold. But there's value in what that coach is saying. Raising your aerobic threshold speed will make it easier to improve your anaerobic threshold afterwards. If all you do all year is 1000s near 5k/10k pace then you'll be neglecting key aspects of your training.
An example: My 5k pace is 2:43 and my 10k 2:50/km. Right now, early season, my faster running is 3:20-3:30 for an hour a week and fartleks and intervals around 3:00-3:10/km. When it's time to sharpen up I can do intervals closer to 2:45-2:50/km but I can just as well just run an all out 5k or 10k and get the same effect. It's also a lot safer than countless race pace intervals. You can also get almost the same effect by doing something like 25x400 at 5k-10k pace -- maybe for you closer to 20x400 -- as long as you're actively working on the aerobic and anaerobic thresholds in longer reps.
If you're so convinced that you're "FT" and need to train differently then go buy a lactate meter, run all out 500m, and measure your lactate. Otherwise you're just guessing.
That makes sense. But the coach uses 4 mmol ("Mader-standard") for comparison, and my pace at 4 mmol went from 3:26/k to 3:34/k.
I have done a lot of aerobic training in the past months, more mileage than ever before + cross-training. The only thing I "eliminated" were long, 90-120 min bike rides. Maybe this made the previous (blue) test look better than I actually was, because I was lacking muscular strength but was strong cardiovascular due to the long, easy rides.
The trainer said that training for an ideal threshold is slightly different than training for an optimal 800-5000 which what I'm trying to do.
He pretty much wants me to do lots of easy running at slightly different paces, a LR of 90-105 min and maybe sometimes 120 min, an easy tempo run 15-20/25s slower than my 10k (20 min tempo 15s slower, 40 min tempo 20-25s) pace and then one time 6-12x1000 in 3:25-3:35/k, right at or just slightly faster than the 4 mmol threshold OR in some weeks the 20-25x400 in 3:20/k. He wants to prevent me from producing too much lactate in these workouts.
My current 5k is 3:15/k (but think I could already go 3:12/k in an ideal race now), 10k guess 3:25/k. It stays interesting.
I see you and the coach do not understand this with lactate threshold and lactate fully.But I don't blame you and the coach because you are far from alone.Lactate isn't a "waste product" that many thinks, it's more of a product necessary in the process to produce new energy at faster paces. What's important is to teach the body to take advantage of the produced lactate more efficiently and faster in the energy process. That way the runner runs faster.
Understand the energy process wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
That makes sense. But the coach uses 4 mmol ("Mader-standard") for comparison, and my pace at 4 mmol went from 3:26/k to 3:34/k.
I have done a lot of aerobic training in the past months, more mileage than ever before + cross-training. The only thing I "eliminated" were long, 90-120 min bike rides. Maybe this made the previous (blue) test look better than I actually was, because I was lacking muscular strength but was strong cardiovascular due to the long, easy rides.
The trainer said that training for an ideal threshold is slightly different than training for an optimal 800-5000 which what I'm trying to do.
He pretty much wants me to do lots of easy running at slightly different paces, a LR of 90-105 min and maybe sometimes 120 min, an easy tempo run 15-20/25s slower than my 10k (20 min tempo 15s slower, 40 min tempo 20-25s) pace and then one time 6-12x1000 in 3:25-3:35/k, right at or just slightly faster than the 4 mmol threshold OR in some weeks the 20-25x400 in 3:20/k. He wants to prevent me from producing too much lactate in these workouts.
My current 5k is 3:15/k (but think I could already go 3:12/k in an ideal race now), 10k guess 3:25/k. It stays interesting.
I see you and the coach do not understand this with lactate threshold and lactate fully.But I don't blame you and the coach because you are far from alone.Lactate isn't a "waste product" that many thinks, it's more of a product necessary in the process to produce new energy at faster paces. What's important is to teach the body to take advantage of the produced lactate more efficiently and faster in the energy process. That way the runner runs faster.
And how do I do that? What type of training and paces need to happen now with the production of more lactate at all levels. Lactate is a fuel source, the tester thinks it's something evil resulting from training too hard and running 1k reps too fast but race AND training performances indicate otherwise.
Sure, when I do all-out hill sprints, 200s @29/30, 30s hill charges or races I produce a lot of lactate which shifts my metabolism more to anaerobic. But for my goals of 800-5k, this shouldn't be a bad thing except maybe for the 5k where I could benefit from holding a stronger pace in the middle section.
Well, my plan is to work on base now until late December, with lots of easy running and workouts around threshold, then do some indoor races between 800-3k and harder training in Jan and Feb. Then I will take a break and decide for the focus in the summer. 2:00 and 4:10 (1500) are the starting goals, can't imagine that being too hard but we will see.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Understand the energy process wrote:
I see you and the coach do not understand this with lactate threshold and lactate fully.But I don't blame you and the coach because you are far from alone.Lactate isn't a "waste product" that many thinks, it's more of a product necessary in the process to produce new energy at faster paces. What's important is to teach the body to take advantage of the produced lactate more efficiently and faster in the energy process. That way the runner runs faster.
And how do I do that? What type of training and paces need to happen now with the production of more lactate at all levels. Lactate is a fuel source, the tester thinks it's something evil resulting from training too hard and running 1k reps too fast but race AND training performances indicate otherwise.
Sure, when I do all-out hill sprints, 200s @29/30, 30s hill charges or races I produce a lot of lactate which shifts my metabolism more to anaerobic. But for my goals of 800-5k, this shouldn't be a bad thing except maybe for the 5k where I could benefit from holding a stronger pace in the middle section.
Well, my plan is to work on base now until late December, with lots of easy running and workouts around threshold, then do some indoor races between 800-3k and harder training in Jan and Feb. Then I will take a break and decide for the focus in the summer. 2:00 and 4:10 (1500) are the starting goals, can't imagine that being too hard but we will see.
You still don't understand.It.s not a question about "hard" or "easy" training, it's more about "exact" perfect individual training and only produce level of lactate to trigger the lactate threshold optimal …...that way your threshold pace will become better and better. It seems you need a world class coach that knows how to do it perfect in practice.
Understand the energy process wrote:
You still don't understand.It.s not a question about "hard" or "easy" training, it's more about "exact" perfect individual training and only produce level of lactate to trigger the lactate threshold optimal …...that way your threshold pace will become better and better. It seems you need a world class coach that knows how to do it perfect in practice.
Is this JS posting under multiple accounts OR is he so popular on this forum that other forum members are pretending to be him? Just curious...
Understand the energy process wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
That makes sense. But the coach uses 4 mmol ("Mader-standard") for comparison, and my pace at 4 mmol went from 3:26/k to 3:34/k.
I have done a lot of aerobic training in the past months, more mileage than ever before + cross-training. The only thing I "eliminated" were long, 90-120 min bike rides. Maybe this made the previous (blue) test look better than I actually was, because I was lacking muscular strength but was strong cardiovascular due to the long, easy rides.
The trainer said that training for an ideal threshold is slightly different than training for an optimal 800-5000 which what I'm trying to do.
He pretty much wants me to do lots of easy running at slightly different paces, a LR of 90-105 min and maybe sometimes 120 min, an easy tempo run 15-20/25s slower than my 10k (20 min tempo 15s slower, 40 min tempo 20-25s) pace and then one time 6-12x1000 in 3:25-3:35/k, right at or just slightly faster than the 4 mmol threshold OR in some weeks the 20-25x400 in 3:20/k. He wants to prevent me from producing too much lactate in these workouts.
My current 5k is 3:15/k (but think I could already go 3:12/k in an ideal race now), 10k guess 3:25/k. It stays interesting.
I see you and the coach do not understand this with lactate threshold and lactate fully.But I don't blame you and the coach because you are far from alone.Lactate isn't a "waste product" that many thinks, it's more of a product necessary in the process to produce new energy at faster paces. What's important is to teach the body to take advantage of the produced lactate more efficiently and faster in the energy process. That way the runner runs faster.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop spouting nonsense pseudoscience.
mediocre 5k runnr wrote:
Any thoughts on a good way to structure a 5k training plan using Tinman approach for someone that doesn't race regularly or doesn't have a race season to peak for? I'd like to have a plan that I can regularly follow and allow me to peak for a race without planning out a whole bunch of workouts for me to do in advance. I have a decent aerobic base to begin with (steady diet of 60 mpw for many years) so do I still need to do a base phase? I'm thinking about doing a schedule like:
6-8 week training block:
Monday: Rest or 1 hour easy
Tues: CV Workout - 4 X 5 1000m (roughly 10k pace) with progressive recoveries each week followed by 4 X 200m
Wed : 1 hour easy
Thur: 1 hour easy + striders
Fri: 18-24 minutes tempo (half-marathon pace)
Sat: 1 hour easy
Sun: 90-120 minute hilly long run at easy pace (5k + 2 minutes / mile)
Down week every 3-4th week (cut mileage 50-70%), maybe do cross-training on elliptical
Alternate V02 workouts at 5k goal race pace with tempo runs every other week? Or replace CV runs with them at the 2nd half of training block?
Also, where would a good place to add short hill sprints in the training cycle? Can I add them on after tempo workouts or should they be done on fresh legs?
I realize the thread wasn't about this, but it was an interesting post that never got answered. Personally, I like it and would add hill sprints after the tempo. Not sure you need a day off every week, maybe in the beginning to cross train, but every two weeks might suffice. Curious if anyone else has thoughts...
div alum wrote:
Understand the energy process wrote:
I see you and the coach do not understand this with lactate threshold and lactate fully.But I don't blame you and the coach because you are far from alone.Lactate isn't a "waste product" that many thinks, it's more of a product necessary in the process to produce new energy at faster paces. What's important is to teach the body to take advantage of the produced lactate more efficiently and faster in the energy process. That way the runner runs faster.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop spouting nonsense pseudoscience.
Actually he's 100% correct! But you aren't alone in this ignorance.
Solid plan wrote:
mediocre 5k runnr wrote:
Any thoughts on a good way to structure a 5k training plan using Tinman approach for someone that doesn't race regularly or doesn't have a race season to peak for? I'd like to have a plan that I can regularly follow and allow me to peak for a race without planning out a whole bunch of workouts for me to do in advance. I have a decent aerobic base to begin with (steady diet of 60 mpw for many years) so do I still need to do a base phase? I'm thinking about doing a schedule like:
6-8 week training block:
Monday: Rest or 1 hour easy
Tues: CV Workout - 4 X 5 1000m (roughly 10k pace) with progressive recoveries each week followed by 4 X 200m
Wed : 1 hour easy
Thur: 1 hour easy + striders
Fri: 18-24 minutes tempo (half-marathon pace)
Sat: 1 hour easy
Sun: 90-120 minute hilly long run at easy pace (5k + 2 minutes / mile)
Down week every 3-4th week (cut mileage 50-70%), maybe do cross-training on elliptical
Alternate V02 workouts at 5k goal race pace with tempo runs every other week? Or replace CV runs with them at the 2nd half of training block?
Also, where would a good place to add short hill sprints in the training cycle? Can I add them on after tempo workouts or should they be done on fresh legs?
I realize the thread wasn't about this, but it was an interesting post that never got answered. Personally, I like it and would add hill sprints after the tempo. Not sure you need a day off every week, maybe in the beginning to cross train, but every two weeks might suffice. Curious if anyone else has thoughts...
1) Do longer tempos when further away from goal race, 30-40 min @MP ("Tinman Tempo"). You can do the shorter ones as you get closer.
2) No day off - Tinman philosophy! If you feel absolutely terrible, jog for 20 min but KEEP THE BALL ROLLING!
3) No down week! Tinman training shouldn't be so hard that you need a down week. Most training programs are harder and absolutely NEED down weeks, but that's one thing about Tinman training it allows you to get in moderate work EVERY week without needing a down week.
4) He prescribes VO2 sparingly - instead of 6x1k@CV, he might assign 4x1k@CV and some 400s or 600s at VO2MAX. Then 100s-200s at mile/800 for speed at the end. I responded extremely fast to VO2MAX work and races, got in great shape quickly but eroded a lot of my stamina/endurance and severely damaged my long-term progress.
We need to build the base first, make it really strong and THEN we can reap the benefits later. I'd rather reap them when I'm in 15 flat shape and not now in 16:00-16:15 shape and then have to start from zero again because my stamina is gone.
