There is no “genetic superiority” when it comes to distance running. Literally everyone sub 2:09 is just doping.

Ma's army absolutely proved what nonsense all these assumptions are about East African genetic advantages.

There was no peds available to Ma's army that hasn't been consumed as a staple by dozens of the very best East Africans in the decades since. Some here claim that the Chinese girls were trained close to death or such since childhood, but they coudn't have been as it it would have shown in their progression as they literally came out of nowhere for one or two seasons.

Rekrunner has to accept that either peds do work, or that the Chinese are way more genetically gifted than East Africans, and lucky for them that the Chinese don't take distance running seriously (other than the brief period of Ma's army).

As many times as I have corrected you, and others, it's unfortunate you still want to use ambiguous terms like "PEDs",and "work".

Of all the drugs available worldwide, the only ones that enhance performance (i.e. "work") are the only ones we can call PEDs. PEDs "work" because that's why we can call it PEDs, and what doesn't "work" is not a PED. I have to accept that, and have always accepted that tautogism, but it always seems like such a trivial assertion not really relevant to anything.

I have also accepted without discussion that steroids and male hormones "work" well for women in events that require increased muscular strength.

It's also unfortunate, again despite numerous corrections, that you want to view the issue as an either/or false dichotomy of "doping" versus "genetics", neglecting a host of other factors such as environment, opportunity, mentality, training, race tactics, etc. It's almost like you believe if you can convince people that genetics falls short of providing a complete explanation, the only alternative is "doping". Sadly, this probably works more often than I think should in an educated world.

You almost got your numbers right this time, Coevett. Just that the best Chinese women was at place 97 (which just falls below the limit of 1000) in the all time list at the end of 1992 (with the 468th fastest performance). OK, no 12 and 15 over 1500 and 10000 at the end of 92 show that China hardly has had a hobby jogger prior to Ma's army, as you wanted to show us.

800m: 89 / 399

1500m: 12 / 17

3000m: 97 / 468

10000m: 15 / 31

Also hard to understand from a Kenyan point of view, that those damn West Africans prefer 100k/week for playing little bit of soccer in the hated Europe, when the option is to take rat poison to earn 50$ in a road race (unfortunately also in Europe).

Ah, yes! The terrible Nigerian weather! Desert storms rapidly change to hail periods all over the country for the full year.

Your 1st point also is a good one! It's just some accident that the overwhelming majority of the fastest Kenyans are from a small part of the country. Year after year.

Were Ma’s men as good as his women?

Are Kenyan men and women both very good at distance running?

The Luo encourage cheating in elections

West Africa has these sprinters in the best 100m:

Olusoji Adetokunbo FASUBA NGR 9.85 (2006)
Divine ODUDURU NGR 9.86 (2019)
Benjamin AZAMATI GHA 9.90 (Mars 2022)
Arthur CISSÉ CIV 9.93 (2019)
Joseph Paul AMOAH GHA 9.94 (April 2022)
Olapade ADENIKEN NGR 9.95 (1994)
Deji ALIU NGR 9.95 2003
Ben Youssef MEITÉ CIV 9.96 (2016)
Raymond EKEVWO NGR 9.96 (2019)
Uchenna EMEDOLU NGR 9.97 (2003)
Leonard MYLES-MILLS GHA 9.98 (1999)

Don't say to me this is all coincidence and why there is only one Kenyan exception.

Sprint is a very technical and expensive track area, that explain why these West African countries have difficulties to rise at the worldwide level.

Excellent post. I didn't think to double-check Coevett's vision of alltime rankings, but it is unsurprising.

As someone else pointed out, the Chinese, like the Russians, did not have great success with their men. That was certainly very progressive of them.

Categorizing events in terms of rules and exceptions:

- I would classify performances at exactly two events, hosted in China, Beijing 1993 and Shanghai 1997, in the shorter distance events, only among women, an exception.

- While I would consider decades of East African dominance, from Kenyans, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somalians, Ugandans, Djibutians, Sudanese, regardless of country of residence, among both men and women, dating back as far back as the world dominance of World Cross country in the 1980s, in all distance events ranging from 800m to the marathon, and showing signs of greatness as far back as the 1960s (from the 1500m to the marathon), a rule.

It's tempting to think that only Africans have doped since the 1960's, despite no such similar pattern in other sports, and contrary to annual WADA reports on doping by sport and country, but for me, it's hard to imagine that the scale and depth of doping required for Ethiopia to beat a strong American team in 1981, with Kenya taking third, would be affordable, logistically possible, and go undetected for four decades, despite all of the doping scandals that have been relatively quickly uncovered, some by whistleblowers, even in Russia despite Russian state sponsoring and ability to cover-up. Even the Stasi files have been made public.

But sure, it's nothing against the Africans.

Any, absolutely any "fact" which is presented by him, has to be checked. The list of his lies in this forum would fill many pages. Add his complete incapacity for rational arguments.

The "East African running gene", along with the "culture of running", are two of the most laughable doping denials you will ever see. No other sport involves this level of willful self-delusion. The Ma's Army example makes a complete mockery of the whole "genetics" argument. PEDs trump everything else.

How fast were the Chinese men that Ma coached?

Why do only a handful of the tribes in Kenya and Ethiopia cheat? Is it coincidence that the majority of top distance runners from Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda are all from the same single tribe? Why have they cornered the market on cheating and none of the other tribes have?

A culture of doping perhaps? Why is it that Kenya was just thisclose to a ban, which it deserved? Because the levels of documented doping warranted it. Endemic doping, be it nationally or among certain tribal groups.

The men vs. women argument goes back to the East Germany example. It was the women's teams that tended to show the dramatic, fast improvement under peds, but the East Germans doped everyone. The Chinese first adopted what the East Germans did with their women's swim team, and then with the distance runners in Ma's Army. Not sure they even attempted it on the men's side; it was about immediate results. Still, the effects of blood doping on the mens side goes back to runners like Viren and we certainly saw it for decades in cycling.

Culture of doping? You seem familiar.

There are over 40 different tribes in Kenya, but only two or three of them know about this? Do the others not want to make money?

Why isn’t a country like Cuba or North Korea turning out top distance runners? If it’s just a matter of drugs, they can do it and they won’t have to worry about doping controls at all.

We all know the Finns were pioneers in blood doping before it was banned. We know it’s effective. We know that EPO is effective. The reason the Eastern Bloc nations and the Chinese had world record breaking women middle and long distance runners and almost no men of any similar caliber is because male hormones have a dramatically larger effect in women than in men. The talent isn’t there in the population at any significant number.

There’s doping going on in East Africa, but there’s also more talent there than anywhere else on the planet. This is why they turn out world class men and women, while those other established cheating programs did not.

The point is that the doping is what is creating the separation and the alleged talent gap. There is no magic running gene. Clean athletes cannot compete, period. Even if certain groups have a genetic predisposition to certain traits that are more conducive to distance running success, it is the widespread doping that is absolutely decisive. You mention certain tribal groups, but is the doping culture that creates the supposed talent. Remove the doping and the supposed "natural talent" does not amount to a hill of beans. Every major marathon winner and record holder is doping, which we usually find out in a few months, at which point the next anonymous doper steps up.

Do you think that the reason that the majority of successful sprinters, NBA and NFL players are of West African descent is also due to doping?

All success now is due to doping. The reason for that is that the best athletes - in any sport - will dope.

Then it's safe to assume that your professional success is also due to cheating.

What about the men's 1500m and 5000m world champs? No exception here?

I wouldn’t pay him any mind if I were you. He’s not in a position to offer that opinion.