Minimalist, what was your experience?

trackhead wrote:

Now, I should add, that there are many, many people who have been made depedenent on built up, insulating shoes, but I don't know at what point that is irreversable. Like I have said, the oldest I've helped move from big shoes to flats was in his 50s and had been running for 35 years.

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Nice point. I will also argue that many persons' natural biomechanical shock absorbtion capabilties don't work any more from years and years of disuse.

I'm considering transitoning into flats. However, I've talked to a handful of weekend warriors who say they need shoes for "overpronators." I used to be one of those "overpronators" and couldn't imagine recomending flat training for them.

Mr. Flats wrote:

We have already established that heel heights due effect form! Correct? Therefore if one is wearing a regular training shoe (Pegasus/gel-nimbus/Gel-kayano any of the others with a heel height above 1 inch) then I am going to have to disagree with you. I don't think today's regular training shoes encourage nor allow the body to have its most efficient natural form .

Yes, you can do drills/strides/stretching etc.. to improve form but depending on how much of a shoe is on your foot during those activities will make a difference either more positively or more negatively on ones form.

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Who were you responding to?

I am responding to the statements you made a few posts ago! Have you already forgotten what those were?

McManus wrote:

Trackhead/Matt

You guy's are really getting technical here....running geeks for sure!

On the topic of minimalist shoes. You had mentioned the Supernova Comp earlier....Note the '05 Supernova Comp is available right now. The '05 Comp dials in at exactly 9.0 ounces for a men's size 9. The fit is performance snug, low profile, responsive, and flexible. The shoe feels most similar to our RaTS Racer of days past...

Cheers

Mike

Beautiful... I've got them coming in 2/1 and very muhc looking forward to having them.

Mr. Flats wrote:

I am responding to the statements you made a few posts ago! Have you already forgotten what those were?

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These statements?:

I think the point is being missed. The theory is that standard trainers are restrictive and do not allow your body to absorb shock the way it biomechanicaly evolved to do so. Many have argued that you will get injured less and, thus, improve performance.

Improving your form is good, but really misses the point of changing shoes. I think these are two different topics.

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Please reread it. I did not say that trainers allow the body to run with correct form. I said that they restrict the natural motion of the foot. So, in obvservation, we are in agreement.

Unless you were refering to this post further back:

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think the point is being missed. The theory is that standard trainers are restrictive and do not allow your body to absorb shock the way it biomechanicaly evolved to do so. Many have argued that you will get injured less and, thus, improve performance.

Improving your form is good, but really misses the point of changing shoes. I think these are two different topics.

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Again, I believe that I am in agreement with you here unless you are refering specificaly to my use of the word "form" here. If so, I will agree that proper form cannot technicaly be reached in trainers, but I see the main problem being located at the foot and the ankle which I consider to be more of a reaction that is caused by the size of the heel. In other words, proper form can be achieved up to the point where the heel touches the ground at which point the training shoes disrupts the motion of the ankle and foot....and potential the shin.

Am I more clear? No?

Crap! I copied the same post twice. I call do over.

Ok...there was only one post. I got all confused. Long day at work.

Anyway, my second explanation refers to my second statement in that post. I'm still not sure what you disagree with....again, perhaps because of my long day.

I loved the 04 fit, but I knew the heal was too high and that stinking plastic post thing hurt my arch.

The new one still has a medial post. I don't know why someone who advocates "minimal" shoes would endorse a "flat" with a post and a trainer-heel. See running times for a review of the '04 supernova comp. Why not look for a flat without a medial post or stability misfeatures ? I mean, it should be easy to find one (you'd hope ... ?)

Nevermind. I misread what you wrote.

Yes, I see your point and agree with it. I was trying to make the same point to the person I was responding to. That person was making the statement "can't you just improve your form regardless of the shoe." The answer is yes, however it misses the point. Despite improving form, correct motion in the foot cannot be achieved in trainers. Form can be improved...but not completely.

OK......I'm going for a run now.

I just started a minimalist program running in nike zoom racer flats. So far i have enjoyed it a lot. No pains or problems of any kind to report; this might be related to the fact i spend all my time at home and in work barefoot, and waer converse kicks a alot as well. And i plan on doing 80% of my mileage of dirt paths or gravel/dirt roads.

Also hollowing the HADD program to boot.

Tom

because I am not yet strong enough to do all the work on my own completly.

Do you have any recommendations? I've been doing my running the past two months in the old nike ghost racers.

Elford

Everything about the '05 Supernova Comp is new...and the shoe is plenty flexible...nothing resembles the '04 version...

I suggest trying it on at your local specialty store....or wait for Trackhead to give his own reiew in a couple of weeks!

Mike

elflord wrote:

I loved the 04 fit, but I knew the heal was too high and that stinking plastic post thing hurt my arch.

The new one still has a medial post. I don't know why someone who advocates "minimal" shoes would endorse a "flat" with a post and a trainer-heel. See running times for a review of the '04 supernova comp. Why not look for a flat without a medial post or stability misfeatures ? I mean, it should be easy to find one (you'd hope ... ?)

Because that height can still cause instability when unchecked. I know very high level pronators who, with no stability post, would need a shoe not taller than the RC-150. But if the RC-150 doesn't fit their foot, but a SNova Comp does, well, now they have less shoe than a trainer, and a shoe they can train and race in.

McManus,

Do you think that most specialty running stores will have the new model right now or are you just lucky to get it a little earlier?

I'm working on getting a pair of the NB900, but if the SN Comp 05 is out, I think I'd like to check that out considering its about 30 dollars cheaper and I really liked the fit on the 04.

Thanks,

GS

Just got thru looking at some new shoes from Saucony. The rep came by our store to show us the updates. The Fast Twitch will be made with a small medial post. And I believe you mention you have a flatter foot. Correct? All of the new Saucony models look very nice. Unfortunetly they don't hit stores until Mid March.

Thanks, I do have a flat foot. I'll make sure to check out the fast-twich because I going to need to replace the ghost racers soon. Right now though if I am running on the roads I need to find a shoe that is more like the NB900 or it appears the adidas SN comp 05.

Is the new fast twitch going to be alot different than the current model. When I checked out the specs on them they were listed at 7.6 ounces. Right now thats probably a little light for me. Although maybe not when compared to the ghost racers. Does anybody know how much the ghost racers weigh? I haven't found anything about them.

Thanks,

GS

I actually had a pair of ghost racers but it was about 6 years ago. I used it for tempo runs. From what I remember it was probably about 9 to 10.5 ounces.

You really need to try and actually take a look at each shoe at the store to get a good idea of how comparable they are to the ghost racer.

Ghost Racer

The shoe is in inventory right now...you may have to ask your specialty store to order the shoe, or get it shipped right away.

Mike