Does the Lydiard/Wetmore system do enough to develop speed?

Antonio,Of course you might be right. I didn't speak about the merit of Astrand's studies so much as Noakes re-affirmation as late as 2001. Astrand's studies might well be out of date, but "jono" insists that Noakes is up to date. It's Noakes who showed us the 1977 data (in a graph) in a book re-published in 2001, and offered his own expert conclusions of the probable benefits of the different kinds of interval sessions, with different lactate accumulation profiles.Recall "jono" saying that all these Canova LACTIC situations is "bad science --- yikes!". "jono" recommended to Canova and the rest of us who need to re-learn basic physiology, to read the physiology section of Noakes.Yet when I read it, I find Noakes re-affirms Canova, and stands by the benefits of lactate accumulation:- In one case, both Noakes and Canova talk about interval sessions designed to increase the rate of lactate removal (LACTIC RESISTANCE)- In the second case, both Noakes and Canova are concerned with improving muscle contraction (both), and relaxation (Canova) in a high lactate (Canova), high acid (Noakes) situation (LACTIC CAPACITY).If Canova is "yikes -- bad science", then Noakes must be too.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

rekrunner

In fact i read the french version Manuel de Physiologie de L'exercice Musculaire but 1st edition is from 1973.

http://books.google.pt/books/about/Manuel_de_physiologie_de_l_exercice_musc.html?id=78VENQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

However the tests that they did were done with recruited swedish army people and also swedish police.

Do you really think that interval tests done before 73 by that non-specialist runners is effective to the modern and update conclusions about lactatemie with average to the top class runners ?

I don´t think so. Too much outdate.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

To improve the power to create lactate transporters and better get the pyruvate/lactate out of those muscle cells which cannot deal with it internally), you MUST create very high lactate conditions within the cell. You MUST accumulate tons of pyruvate, like the cell is gonna burst with pyruvate/lactate, which will best stimulate your cells to create transporters in order to get rid of it.

Do you really advocate that a runner should "accumulate tons of pyruvate, like the cell is gonna burst with pyruvate/lactate" during "base" phase?

Antonio Cabral wrote:

But if you want i may say why with facts, not just wit a subjective opinion tha´s what you write.

Talking about facts, what times do the athletes you coach run?

First of all. Remember that what I say in my last post it´s the training for a range of distances, not just 800m. Therefore, the faster and lactic is the event the highest the need of anaerobic training.

I advocate that the runner might face the lactate accumulation since the start of the training process, but gradually, progressive increase in frequency, progressive increase through the season and progressive increase of pace (more lactate training).

Meanwhile the anaerobic training is progressively growing the aerobic training is indispensable, from the basic/easy pace up to the aerobic power.

This is not new, this was done for the 800m-1500m by Sebastian Coe lead by his father and S Martin.

Just look at this video. He does 6-8X800m uphill in jut a bit more than 2:00min and with short recovery during the build up phase.

It´s undeniable that some specifics (faster than just aerobics) must start on the early phase of the season. I don´t ignore, I don´t run away that doing too much anaerobic and without the needed recovery and restoration might be dangerous somehow. But here emerges the coach´s role to use anaerobic with parsimony.

Of course that the aerobics is important and need to be cared in every rich training approach for the distance events.

The aerobics can be done, might be done, but mixed with some faster anaerobic pace done once in a while, and with parsimony, not on a everyday anaerobic training.

"Ability to remove lactate quickly in the fibers?"

Everyone has this ability. You don't need special training for it, it is the action of lactate transporter proteins.

Increase of 60% VO2 max in elites? That's not absolute VO2 max. Absolute VO2 max increases 20-30% from very unfit, to normal cardiac development. What is termed Cardiac Hypertropy, an unfortunate term that really refers to a healthily developed heart.

My basic point which nobody on this thread or probably no-one who ever posted on this forum seems to be able to grasp is that a healthy person can't develop Aerobically or Anaerobically, because a healthy person already has those capacities, The Aerobic capacity from normal cardiac development and oxygen delivery and the Anaerobic capacity from normal LDH levels. Where athletes develp is in the nerual pathways, the neuro-motor skills of running, whic is where the 'resistance' or speed endurance comes from.

There is the template. I can't keep repeating it over and over and over, and I can't keep debating it over and over and over. It gets boring. I've been saying this for several years on letsrun but what is the point?

Funny how you don't answer the question about the runners you coach, António.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Meanwhile the anaerobic training is progressively growing the aerobic training is indispensable, from the basic/easy pace up to the aerobic power.

This is not new, this was done for the 800m-1500m by Sebastian Coe lead by his father and S Martin.

Just look at this video. He does 6-8X800m uphill in jut a bit more than 2:00min and with short recovery during the build up phase.

6-8 800 uphill in just a bit more that 2min?????

No, he did 6x800 downhill in just under 2 minutes. No-one can run uphill 800's in 2 minutes unless the grade is a lot less than 1%

As for lactate transporter proteins, athletes don't need Tons of lactate accumulation in the cell to maximize this Antonio, it is a natural part of carbohyrdrate metabolism.

skeptic. wrote:

Antonio Cabral wrote:

To improve the power to create lactate transporters and better get the pyruvate/lactate out of those muscle cells which cannot deal with it internally), you MUST create very high lactate conditions within the cell. You MUST accumulate tons of pyruvate, like the cell is gonna burst with pyruvate/lactate, which will best stimulate your cells to create transporters in order to get rid of it.

Do you really advocate that a runner should "accumulate tons of pyruvate, like the cell is gonna burst with pyruvate/lactate" during "base" phase?

You are right to be skeptical. Neiter Renato nor Antonio can answer that question as I'm sure you are aware, because the truth is neither Renato nor Antonio actually know anything about monocarboxylate transporter protein expression, they are just bullshitting, trying to sound knowledgeable to impress people.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

I advocate that the runner might face the lactate accumulation since the start of the training process, but gradually, progressive increase in frequency, progressive increase through the season and progressive increase of pace (more lactate training).

I'm fine with this. Thanks.

jono wrote:

[quote]skeptic. wrote:

because the truth is neither Renato nor Antonio actually know anything about monocarboxylate transporter protein expression, they are just bullshitting, trying to sound knowledgeable to impress people.

I suppose this too is just basic physiology that you happen to not be able to point to the source of? And of course you don't have time to give examples for training that will show us how this basic knowledge should be put to use. I mean you've already done that over and over again. Right?

Perhaps you are right. It's pointless. In a world of 7.126 billion people, perhaps as many as 99.99999999985968% don't grasp your basic point. This is not my problem.I wish you would work harder to support your incredible assertions, and directly address some of the obvious contradictions. Seems this would benefit both of us. But if you chose not to, this is not my problem.

Jono, may be I just bullshit, trying to sound knowledgeable to impress people.

Now, for your knowledge, I give you a small list of athletes directly coached by myself, or by coaches worked with me and using the same training systems which we discussed together, of course for "bullshitting" trying to impress one the other, and not for better knowing training :

Wilfred Bungei (Ol. Ch. 2008) 1:42.34 *

Gregory Konchellah 1:42.79 *

William Yampoi 1:42.91 *

Kenneth Kimwetich 1:43.03

Joseph Mutua 1:43.33

Leonard Konchellah 1:43.40

Marcello Fiasconaro 1:43.7 **

Job Kinyor 1:43.76

Ediwn Melly 1:43.81

Andrea Benvenuti 1:43.92 *

Giuseppe D'Urso 1:43.95 *

The athletes with one * were under the direct control of Gianni Ghidini, working with me as Italian Responsible of middle distances in the period from 1993, and after with me with Kenyan athletes of the management of Gianni Demadonna.

We shared all our experiences, discussing full days about the effects of different training, and not for impressing somebody, but for finding a better way to have results with our athletes.

About the athlete with two **, Marcello Fiasconaro, who was the WR holder in 1973and still has the Italian Record, I was not the official coach, but I had the opportunity to work (at that time very youngcoach) with him during the period 1971 - 1974, since I was the assistant coach of the Italian National responsible for 400m and Relay (Salvatore Morale, himself WR holder of 400m HS in 1962 with 49.2 and bronze medal in OG 1964). Fiasconaro came Italy in June 1971, and in 1972 came Torino in the Universitary Club (CUS Torino) with President Primo Nebiolo. Marcello had a South African coach, Stewart Banner, who professionally was the owner of a chain of restaurants, and came Torino with a training program written on a small piece of paper :

IF YOU HAVE A COMPETITION OF 400m YOUR TRAINING IN THE WEEK MUST BE :

Tuesday : 3 times 300m in 34" with 8min recovery

Thursday : 6 times 150m in 16"5 with 4 min recovery

IF YOU HAVE A COMPETITION OF 800m YOUR TRAINING IN THE WEEK MUST BE :

Tuesday : 3 times 600m in 1'21" with 10min recovery

Thursday : 6 times 300m in 37" / 38" with 4min recovery

I changed this training a little bit, including 10 km of aerobic fast run in the early morning for 5 days per week on grass (between 34' and 33'), and putting some variations in the speed and in the volume (for example, 10 x 150m in 18" with 2' recovery, or 5 x 600m in 1'25" with 6' recovery).

After his WR, Marcello went for about one year in Formia and Asiago under the responsibility of prof. Carlo Vittori , who changed his training due to frequent injuries and different ideas about how to train 800m, and never he was able running under 1'46" again.

And now, when I'm in Kenya, we have continuous possibilities to share our experiences with Brother Colm O'Connel, coach of David Rudisha, and with Claudio Berardelli, coach of the World Champion 2007 Alfred Kirwa, and of the two World Champion Women in 2007 (Janet Jepkosgei) and 2013 (Eunice Sum).

So, this is what we do. And I can assure you nobody of us is interested about monocarboxylate transporter protein expressions, because we prefer to be interested in the way for enhancing the peformances of our athletes.

Take it easy bro, no one wants to be aware of the elephant in this thread ...

Hi Renato:

Did you mean to write "Leonard Kosencha" instead of "Leonard Konchellah"? I would love to hear more about your training of Kosencha, Kinyor, and other fast 800 athletes.

jono:

If it is truly all about the neural pathways and neuro-motor skills of running, why do runners have to train by running at all?

What I mean is, if someone trains well and competes well, your theory is that they have trained their neurology well and that explains their performance more than mitochondria, enzymes,capillaries, and the like. Suppose that once they have learned to do that, they stop running and just spend the hour or two of daily training that they were using (for running, plyos, and whatever)by sitting and visualizing the appropriate training?

Brain scans show the same brain areas lighting up when you think about doing something compared to when you are actually doing it. So why are Meb, Geb, and every other champion still actually running? Imagine how fresh their legs would be if they just imagined running, bounding, depth jumping, etc. rather than pound the crap out of their legs with actual physical exercise?

SlowFatMaster wrote:

So why are Meb, Geb, and every other champion still actually running? Imagine how fresh their legs would be if they just imagined running, bounding, depth jumping, etc. rather than pound the crap out of their legs with actual physical exercise?

Your knowledge of basic physiology is very poor. I really don't want to go through the same explanations over and over and over. Read a book about basic physiology.

Renato, I know about your coaching success. But I don't agree with the way you try to explain 800m training. It concerned too much with trying to explain the meatabolic processes which is impossible and not enough to explain the art of running which is simple. Running is a skill, we must learn the technique of perfect pace judgement to run the perfect race. We can't 'resist' fatigue we have to accept it, but we can run faster with fatigue if we have more skill/nervous system control of our running. That is why Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha run so fast.

That is a great question. The one we all need to try and answer. Your last paragraph, about visualization, top athletes do this as well, and it works. Before all of my best races I always did this, and the race always went the way I visualized it, which is kind of weird, but a very exciting feeling.

Training neural pathways is interesing stuff as a science. Perhaps some of the best people to talk to on this subject are those who train stroke victims and similar patients to walk again.

rekrunner wrote:

Perhaps you are right. It's pointless. In a world of 7.126 billion people, perhaps as many as 99.99999999985968% don't grasp your basic point. This is not my problem.

I wish you would work harder to support your incredible assertions, and directly address some of the obvious contradictions. Seems this would benefit both of us. But if you chose not to, this is not my problem.

Work harder to support my incredible assertions????

rekrunner, it's basic physiology. I have done the explanations over and over and over for several years, but you keep asking the same questions over and over and over.

Are you aware of this? I don't want to sound cruel, but I think you may be having some problems with memory. Often I tell you something and you have completely forgotten the next day.

Anway what about this:?

I worked petty hard 6 years ago, and that what when I had my best ever season with 9 wins.