Arthur Lydiard and his statements

time after time wrote:

Yes even the almost most ignorant people know this.

[/quote]

Yes Even The Almost Most Ignorant People Know This...

So which one is the first name and which one is the surname? This Finnish naming system is so complicated... Sorry, Canadian.

Q:"What's the actual quote Lydiard said in the TV interview?"

A:"Read the book! I'm telling the truth."

Q:"Name them (those who set the world records)."

A:"Everybody knows that."

We now all know you can't be specific and can't be accurate and can't provide any evidence. At least, if you want to use different names, change the pattern.

Yeah, and you know the secret? It was actually Cerutty who coached Peter Snell. He was the one who taught him that famous 9-feet stride by demonstrating it on the sand dune. And it was actually Cerutty who taught Bikila how to run barefoot. Oh, and my dad is actually Santa Clause. But I told him not to bring any present to you this year. Sorry!

What a sad pathetic display of tantram... Very disappointing, Skuj.

the truth: wrote:

Should I stop posting then?

Really!!! Yes, please stop posting to put us out of this misery! I don't recall any of us actually asking you any response other than "show the actual quote" which you had continously ducked.

But seriuosly, you can really stop posting because we all know what you're gonna say anyways:

"Get the book and read it yourself."

"I am the truth."

"I am not skuj."

Okay, everybody, repeat that 50 times each and he'll reach the targetted 15000 posts.

the truth: wrote:

And I´m not "attacking" anyone, I´m just telling the truth when someone makes a reply to me. If someone here is "attacking", it´s you "white lie".

And I'm not attacking you, truth. I'm simply pointing out the truth. I have nothing against YOU. Skuj is another matter...

Why should I waste time trying to educate a numbskull.

Don't be so lazy.

If you want to know something then find it out for yourself.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply you were inconsistent. (I noticed that you didn't argue "coherent", though :-P) Honestly, I don't want to get involved.I only meant that your posts, as consistent as they may be with themselves, are not consistent with "wellnow's" or "Skuj's" typical posts. If they indeed posted what you post, that would demonstrate an inconsistency that they have not yet otherwise shown.Mine was a statement simply defending the identities of "wellnow" and "Skuj", rather than taking any position on your statement of "truths".Therefore, I don't believe that you are "wellnow" or "Skuj" (or "Cabral" or any others). Your unawareness of "NobbyH's" identity further strengthens my conviction that you are indeed someone else. It could all be planned and contrived, but again, regarding your identity, you receive the benefit of the doubt.Surely, in a world of 7 billion people, there are more than 4-5 Lydiard "critics" who read "letsrun" -- they are not all the same guy posting with different names.

the truth: wrote:

I have told the truth consistently.

Voice of Ray-san wrote:

Surely it's neither "skuj" nor "wellnow". They may each have there own issues, but at least at some level they are coherent, and consistent.

I wouldn't have thought it possible, but with all this "identity" name-calling, this thread has degraded even further into meaninglessness.If I may speak for myself, no one has a problem with you telling the truth or being honest. If only it were that simple.They main problem, as I see it, is that the established facts you give fall short of supporting all of the "truths" you want to be accepted.You have not yet answered this basic question: How can we accept that Lydiard lied, if we don't even know what he said?No one has disputed these "truths":- Lydiard played in important role in Finland's athletics, at the very least giving lectures to Finnish coaches- Lydiard is an exaggerator- "truth" read a book- Vasala wrote a book- "truth" read Vasala's books- In that book, Vasala makes certain claims about LydiardHowever, you want to include more allegations as "truths", but give too little information to verify, or falsify, these claims:- Lydiard gave an interview on TV in New Zealand, and Vasala saw that same interview. Which interview? What channel? What time? What date? Who interviewed him? What was the exact question? What was the exact response? What was the context?- In that interview, Lydiard said, and Vasala heard, that he was THE COACH of Viren and Vasala. Maybe he only claimed that he "coached" them, consistent with his undisputed role as Finnish national coach, rather than claiming to be THE COACH of all the top Finnish athletes. This subtle distinction is one that could be lost on a Native Finnish speaker, but yet would separate a truth from a lie.If you only said, "According to Vasala, in his 1975 book, Lydiard lied in a TV interview", then this is easily verifiable, by reading(/translating) Vasala's book, as you say, and no long discussion is required. But you are saying, "Lydiard lied, because Vasala said so in a book, and Vasala should know." Clearly you can see the difference, can't you?You ask that we accept on faith that Lydiard actually said, what Vasala thought he heard, simply taking your "translations" of Vasala's Finnish words, and Vasala's recollection of what was said, at face value. In the real world of logic, the "truth" doesn't work like that -- with so many unresolved variables in between the facts and the conclusions.Of course, it's possible that you are correct on all counts, but based on the scant evidence before us, the conclusion is premature. This is only one possibility among many others:- Vasala simply misunderstood subtle meanings because of non-native language comprehension problems- Vasala maliciously lied out of a personal dislike of Lydiard's role- "truth" misunderstood. Maybe Vasala did not mean what "truth" understood.- "truth" maliciously lied. Maybe Vasala said no such things at all.It's certainly possible to rule out these other possibilities, but we would need more supportive, independent evidence than "hearsay" from Vasala.Furthermore, we have seen evidence to the contrary:- Viren allegedly giving credit to Lydiard for his success, each year in Xmas cards- Vasala giving credit to Lydiard for his success, in Lydiard's 1978 book- Lydiard admitting he did not train Viren (interestingly, this was offered as definitive proof that Lydiard lied -- does that mean that Lydiard really did train Viren, and he was just being modest?) His role was to coach the coaches.If you want to confine yourself to the simple world of truth, there are some minimum obligations to meet this high standard. Your opinion, and Vasala's opinion, can not simply be pawned off as the undisputed truth. You have to show your work.

the truth: wrote:

Again to you Lydiard-admirer, I have nothing against Lydiard but you seem to have something against the truth. I have gave a credit for Lydiard many times in this thread but you just seem to ignore it. Why it´s wrong to be honest?

according to the distributive property of athletics:

Lydiard wrote training principles----different coach uses training principles on athlete----ipso facto, athlete was essentially coached by Arthur Lydiard.

He may not have had direct contact, but he did use Arthur Lydiards "method" (if you will) to achieve success.

Pretty simple if you ask me. And who cares anyway?

That logic perhaps is too sweeping and too indirect to be meaningful.But in this case, we can (and I did) make a much stronger statement:Lydiard gave instructive training to Finnish coaches, and Lydiard's lectures ultimately influenced Viren's and Vasala's training.By the simple definition of the word "coach", it follows directly that Lydiard did "coach" both Viren and Vasala to Olympic success, even if, technically speaking, he was not THEIR COACH.To dispute my statement, as a matter of definition, you would need to show that Lydiard's lectures were not instructive in nature, or that they did not serve to guide, direct, or otherwise influence, Viren's and Vasala's training. This has not been disputed.

tapererererer wrote:

according to the distributive property of athletics:

Lydiard wrote training principles----different coach uses training principles on athlete----ipso facto, athlete was essentially coached by Arthur Lydiard.

He may not have had direct contact, but he did use Arthur Lydiards "method" (if you will) to achieve success.

Pretty simple if you ask me. And who cares anyway?

time after time wrote:

Why should I waste time trying to educate a numbskull.

Don't be so lazy.

If you want to know something then find it out for yourself.

Yep, that's what I thought. THanks for the confirmation.

Q:"What's the actual quote Lydiard said in the TV interview?"

A:"Read the book! I'm telling the truth."

Q:"Name them (those who set the world records)."

A:"Everybody knows that."

A:"Why do I have to waste my time telling you?"

A:"Find out yourself." (by the book, you moron)

By the way, just to satisfy your ego, I took up your suggestion of "almost most ignorant people know that" (kinda funny English...you're sure you're not from Finland?), and asked some of the "most ignorant people" around my neighborhood. I asked Bill on my right and he had no clue who Cerutty was. Jeff on the left, the same. John on the corner actually ran in high school and he knew Herb Elliot. He also knew Peter Snell and Arthur Lydiard because he still runs and his son runs a marathon. But even he didn't know Cerutty. So would this count as your "lie" or "exaggeration"?

Voice of Ray-san wrote:

Surely, in a world of 7 billion people, there are more than 4-5 Lydiard "critics" who read "letsrun" -- they are not all the same guy posting with different names.

You would think so; or at least you would hope so! I'm sure there are 100s of people who don't like Lydiard. Even I, for one, don't necessarily like some of what he preaches. I don't buy hill bounding--sure way to get injured particularly right after doing lots of slow running. And I don't like his idea of go by how you feel intervals either.

But the point is; for things like that, we can have an intelligent discussion. This guy (or, for the benefit of the doubt, these guys) only start some bogus thread ONLY to dis Lydiard. He lied? BIG STINKING DEAL!!! He didn't coach Viren or Vasala? But their coaches all "did Lydiard". So he's only splitting hair and he don't see it. And now Rod Dixon dismiss Lydiard? Ask Wetcoast; he just spent weekend with Rod. If I remember it correctly, Dixon is a part of Lydiard Foundation. They are just making up stories to bad-mouth Lydiard and THAT'S IT. And don't be fooled by his comment about "who's the hell is NobbyH?" He's just putting Nobby down. If you "studied" Lydiard, this day and age with the use of internet, you will NOT avoid coming across the name Nobby. You're way too naive, Ray-san if we take what you said for face-value. I hope you're either being nice or being politically correct.

Checking for world records from athletes Cerutty coached I found two, obviously, from Elliott, 1500 and mile, three miles both indoor and outdoor for Albie Thomas and John Landy had the 1500 and mile records as well though Landy worekd with Cerutty for a while and then went on his own. I'm not sure when he got the records relative to that. So that's six WRs. If I'm missing half of them it's a far cry from 30-40.

time after time wrote:

Why should I waste time trying to educate a numbskull.

Don't be so lazy.

If you want to know something then find it out for yourself.

Why are you responding to me with this comment? I wasn't the one who challenged you with naming of those Cerutty school world record breakers. On the other hand, I was the one who was coming after Skuj... Hmmmm... Got confused which name you were supposed to be?

Yeah, don't be fooled, Ray-san. The truth is supposed to be this calm irritating one. He would calmly continue to come back to you and come back to you and come back to you with the same phrase like a broken record ("Get the book", "I'm telling the truth", "I'm not against Lydiard"...). But when we come close to the truth, he gets irritated and wanna scream. So this "time after time" guy is his evil twin brother. He comes out mad and throws some rediculous claims like "I coached Lydiard" or "Cerutty coached Halberg and Lydiard stole him". Just by looking at it, you can easily tell this "first time on this thread" and "second time..." and "third time..." as well as those two guys (supposedly) posted those Cerutty pictures AND this "time after time" are ALL same poster. At least they had been, like you said, coherent about the point. So why not "the truth"? They are all the same guy. He (could be "she") just wants to de-face Lydiard, for whatever the reason, and mock Lydiard admirers like Nobby and HRE and Kim. He gets kick out of irritating others and that's totally Skuj. I really woudln't be surprised if he HAD used 30 or 40 different names throughout this message board.

Another thing this poor soul does is to come up with a different name, or several different names, and write sometjhing that he would agree. Just check page 4 where this "first time on this thread" guy writes "I met Lydiard and he stole from Cerutty..." and the truth would come on and says "Thank you." Pathetic! I think it's his new technique; "I met with Lydiard several times..." I think he started using it because people like Nobby or HRE REALLY met with Lydiard, worked with him, communicated with him and his associates like Barry Magee... So he's overwhelmingly losing the ground. So he came up with this line to make it sounds more reliable. Once again, NO BODY knows for sure. Ryan Hall is right. 99.9% of posters don't have a clue. 50% or probably even more people here make up stories. And probably 20% of all posters are Skuj! :) Certainly 99.9% of Lydiard haters are!

And Albie Thomas also got the 2 mile WR at one point. So that's seven.

Also, in reference to Skuj, as someone, possibly you, pointed out, Skuj inadvertently outed himself when "the truth" responded to my comparison of wellnow and Skuj.

I don't think I'm being naive to say who the "truth" isn't. As I said, I'm just trying to not get involved -- seems like a couple of others have already said what I would have. In the past, I spent too much effort with anti-Lydiard critics, asking genuine questions, but getting no answers. If there were real answers, I would have them by now, so it's a game I no longer care to play.

For the rest, I don't ever care to play this identity guessing game, but I just stepped in to say that surely the "truth" is not "wellnow" nor "Skuj" nor "Cabral". They often speak for themselves using their known handle, so why would they need to "bad-mouth" Lydiard with a new pseudonym? Anyway, I know a thing or too about authentication mechanisms, to say that there is no way know for sure, who is whom, so the point is moot.

third time known as the truth wrote:

I asked Bill on my right and he had no clue who Cerutty was. Jeff on the left, the same. John on the corner actually ran in high school and he knew Herb Elliot. He also knew Peter Snell and Arthur Lydiard because he still runs and his son runs a marathon. But even he didn't know Cerutty. So would this count as your "lie" or "exaggeration"?

You live in an ignorant neighborhood.

Voice of Ray-san wrote:

...so why would they need to "bad-mouth" Lydiard with a new pseudonym?

No, Ray-san. I think you are being naive. Unfortunately, there IS an ugly side of human nature. If you can totally cover your identity, you'll do some nasty stuff and feel nothing of it. Immature, sure. But unfortunately there are a lot of immature people out there. How else, do you explain, would someone make a stupid claim like "I coached Lydiard"? There was a thread out here where this nice lady, very excitedly, said she had a chat with this guy while running Chicago marathon and she talked him out of being on a street gang or something like that. Some idiot posted something about banging her. No one with the right mind would say such a shameless thing IF we know who's saying it. It's way too embarassing. But if you know you are not going to be known, just looking for some "kick", and if you have a mindset of a 12-year-old, you might. And this is the place to do it. That's why this message board is a pit now. Authentication mechanism? Letsrun is not going to do anything about it because this is how they get traffic. Why they post under false names? So they can be 30 different people, supporting themselves as if there are a huge population out there who think "Cerutty coached Halberg".