It doesn't seem like he cares about being a miler. That will be his greatest limiting factor. I doubt he'll ever be a truely great 400 meter runner either, but he clearly prefers that event and could snag some 4x4 medals at championships, which is a big incentive to pick that over the 1500.
Lagat never ran faster than 1:46 for the 800. He won the 5k in the 2007 wc.
Lagat also ran his last 800m in a 1500m faster than his open 800m PR. Do with that what you will.
Lagat was a known drug cheat, caught using EPO and saved via behind the scenes manipulation/machinations, like many, many other East African distance runners and American sprinters. He shouldn’t even be in this conversation.
It doesn't seem like he cares about being a miler. That will be his greatest limiting factor. I doubt he'll ever be a truely great 400 meter runner either, but he clearly prefers that event and could snag some 4x4 medals at championships, which is a big incentive to pick that over the 1500.
it's really REALLY hard to get on the US 4x4. if he's getting selected for those teams, he's a legit 400 runner. Running low 44 opens.
You're right, but as an 800 runner Snell was a strength rather than speed type. He generally considered he was the "slowest" in his Olympic finals. But he was definitely the strongest. Lutkenhaus appears similar in that regard. As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final. But it doesn't matter if he's the strongest with the most endurance.
OK, lets deal with facts shall we. The final at World Indoors by 400 PBs: Lutkenhaus 46.30 at age 16 doubling Crestan 46.79 at age 25 fresh Attaoui 48.80 at age 20 fresh Bol 47.20 at age 22 fresh Bloudek 48.08 at age 18 fresh Clay 47.19 at age 17 double
To quote Tommy Lee Jones in "The Fugitive" "Do you want to change your BS story, sir?"
If you took a look at 1500 PBs Attaoui and Bol would destroy Cooper's PBs there. He won because he is fast, strong, but most of all in the 800 speed is strength if you harness it properly.
It doesn't seem like he cares about being a miler. That will be his greatest limiting factor. I doubt he'll ever be a truely great 400 meter runner either, but he clearly prefers that event and could snag some 4x4 medals at championships, which is a big incentive to pick that over the 1500.
it's really REALLY hard to get on the US 4x4. if he's getting selected for those teams, he's a legit 400 runner. Running low 44 opens.
Exactly or being capable of 43-high. Lutkenhaus is an 800 meter runner, pure and simple. His best chance for medals, as he’s already proven, is the two-lapper. And he has ten more years to do it before he even considers being super serious about the 1500. But certainly two Olympic cycles. Maybe when he’s 24 he can entertain it.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
You're right, but as an 800 runner Snell was a strength rather than speed type. He generally considered he was the "slowest" in his Olympic finals. But he was definitely the strongest. Lutkenhaus appears similar in that regard. As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final. But it doesn't matter if he's the strongest with the most endurance.
OK, lets deal with facts shall we. The final at World Indoors by 400 PBs: Lutkenhaus 46.30 at age 16 doubling Crestan 46.79 at age 25 fresh Attaoui 48.80 at age 20 fresh Bol 47.20 at age 22 fresh Bloudek 48.08 at age 18 fresh Clay 47.19 at age 17 double
To quote Tommy Lee Jones in "The Fugitive" "Do you want to change your BS story, sir?"
No, he never has. He can't. It is contrary to his genetic predisposition.
Snell was still more of an endurance runner that Cooper. He won the NZ x-country championships one year; ran with the leaders for 20 miles in the same year he set the 800m and mile world-records; and was an Olympic 1500m Champion.
You're right, but as an 800 runner Snell was a strength rather than speed type. He generally considered he was the "slowest" in his Olympic finals. But he was definitely the strongest. Lutkenhaus appears similar in that regard. As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final. But it doesn't matter if he's the strongest with the most endurance.
I agree with you about Snell, but I think Cooper is more on the speed end of the spectrum than was Snell.
In addition to winning the 1962 New Zealand x-country Championship (and NZ had some decent distance runners at that stage) he also beat the legendary Sir Murry Halberg (winner of the Olympic 5000m, 30 min after Snell's first Olympic 800m win) over 2000m.
Cooper isn't going to have that kind of capacity, as he's a faster type of runner. I think he's getting closer to Keely, who I've had said was an 800m specialist, but with more speed development is now more a 400/800m type.
Against a world-class 800m field Cooper has more speed, rather than more endurance than most.
May as well join the 'Endurance" / "Speed' scrap. Some info on Snell : He was the Owairaka Athletic Club 200m record holder for quite a few years : 22 secs flat on a Grass Track. Also a little story : Many years ago in the middle of a foul Auckland winter Arthur Lydiard had a crew doing repetition 800's on Blockhouse Bay Road ... on a slight down hill section .. Snell struggled through a session and got a lot of banter from the crew .. he had not beaten 2 minutes !!! .. One week later, same workout .. Last rep .. Snell 1:42 ... banter stopped ... I was not there but a close Mate was. Catch ya again soon.
It doesn't seem like he cares about being a miler. That will be his greatest limiting factor. I doubt he'll ever be a truely great 400 meter runner either, but he clearly prefers that event and could snag some 4x4 medals at championships, which is a big incentive to pick that over the 1500.
it's really REALLY hard to get on the US 4x4. if he's getting selected for those teams, he's a legit 400 runner. Running low 44 opens.
the olympic mens 4x400, sure
but lets not pretend we havent put isaiah harris, matthew boling, brian faust, noah lyles, on indoor world finals and mixed relays.
better shot at that than a 1500m medal
This post was edited 30 seconds after it was posted.
You're right, but as an 800 runner Snell was a strength rather than speed type. He generally considered he was the "slowest" in his Olympic finals. But he was definitely the strongest. Lutkenhaus appears similar in that regard. As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final. But it doesn't matter if he's the strongest with the most endurance.
OK, lets deal with facts shall we. The final at World Indoors by 400 PBs: Lutkenhaus 46.30 at age 16 doubling Crestan 46.79 at age 25 fresh Attaoui 48.80 at age 20 fresh Bol 47.20 at age 22 fresh Bloudek 48.08 at age 18 fresh Clay 47.19 at age 17 double
To quote Tommy Lee Jones in "The Fugitive" "Do you want to change your BS story, sir?"
If you took a look at 1500 PBs Attaoui and Bol would destroy Cooper's PBs there. He won because he is fast, strong, but most of all in the 800 speed is strength if you harness it properly.
What is harnessing 800m speed? Sounds like something you just made up.
OK, lets deal with facts shall we. The final at World Indoors by 400 PBs: Lutkenhaus 46.30 at age 16 doubling Crestan 46.79 at age 25 fresh Attaoui 48.80 at age 20 fresh Bol 47.20 at age 22 fresh Bloudek 48.08 at age 18 fresh Clay 47.19 at age 17 double
To quote Tommy Lee Jones in "The Fugitive" "Do you want to change your BS story, sir?"
No, he never has. He can't. It is contrary to his genetic predisposition.
Guys Armstronglivs is just rojo trolling endlessly for site traffic, I’m pretty darn sure of it
His coach hasn't told us that Lutkenhaus has run any times faster than his prs.
This is a thread of predictions - including by his coach. One thing that can be observed about predictions - especially here - is that they frequently overshoot the mark. You guys are setting yourselves up to be disappointed, whereas I may be pleasantly surprised.
I don’t know man…being optimistic about a young person’s potential isn’t really “setting yourself up to be disappointed”.
Sure you’re probably right in regards to some people, but I think reasonable people aren’t putting all their eggs in the basket of “Cooper needs to run 44 and 3:29 in his next 400/1500 attempts!!!”
Race results don’t always paint a perfect picture of fitness. There are so many variables…weather, race conditions/tactics, how the body is feeling on the day.
He could go out and run slower than his PRs and still be in better shape and be capable or running much faster.
As any coach does, I’m sure his coach tracks his times/average times that he hits for certain interval distances during his workouts. In most cases that results in faster applicable race times. Doesn’t matter that he’s not getting FAT sprint times out of blocks in practice, as long as you generally try to compare apples to apples for the way that you gather practice times/data.
It seems more like you’re just worried about being wrong and guarding yourself against that.
I'm not worried about being wrong. I just don't see any indication yet that Lutkenhaus could be as good a 400 runner as he is an 800 runner. To me that would mean he would be running about the same as Quincy over the 400. He isn't and I don't think he ever will if it means 44-low - or even sub-45. But if he proves me wrong then I'm proven wrong.
You're right, but as an 800 runner Snell was a strength rather than speed type. He generally considered he was the "slowest" in his Olympic finals. But he was definitely the strongest. Lutkenhaus appears similar in that regard. As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final. But it doesn't matter if he's the strongest with the most endurance.
OK, lets deal with facts shall we. The final at World Indoors by 400 PBs: Lutkenhaus 46.30 at age 16 doubling Crestan 46.79 at age 25 fresh Attaoui 48.80 at age 20 fresh Bol 47.20 at age 22 fresh Bloudek 48.08 at age 18 fresh Clay 47.19 at age 17 double
To quote Tommy Lee Jones in "The Fugitive" "Do you want to change your BS story, sir?"
If you took a look at 1500 PBs Attaoui and Bol would destroy Cooper's PBs there. He won because he is fast, strong, but most of all in the 800 speed is strength if you harness it properly.
He is still nowhere near the 400 runner that he is over the 800 - yet you say he has run the event plenty of times. I don't know why you trying to make him out to be what he clearly isn't and never will be, which is a 400 runner of equivalent ability to his 800 ability.
OK, lets deal with facts shall we. The final at World Indoors by 400 PBs: Lutkenhaus 46.30 at age 16 doubling Crestan 46.79 at age 25 fresh Attaoui 48.80 at age 20 fresh Bol 47.20 at age 22 fresh Bloudek 48.08 at age 18 fresh Clay 47.19 at age 17 double
To quote Tommy Lee Jones in "The Fugitive" "Do you want to change your BS story, sir?"
No, he never has. He can't. It is contrary to his genetic predisposition.
My genetic predisposition is towards the facts rather than fantasy.
He is still nowhere near the 400 runner that he is over the 800 - yet you say he has run the event plenty of times. I don't know why you trying to make him out to be what he clearly isn't and never will be, which is a 400 runner of equivalent ability to his 800 ability.
Nobody is doing that. I’m glad you’ve abandoned your arguments though.
You're right, but as an 800 runner Snell was a strength rather than speed type. He generally considered he was the "slowest" in his Olympic finals. But he was definitely the strongest. Lutkenhaus appears similar in that regard. As controversial as it appears here, he isn't and won't be the fastest 200 or 400 guy in any championship 800 final. But it doesn't matter if he's the strongest with the most endurance.
I agree with you about Snell, but I think Cooper is more on the speed end of the spectrum than was Snell.
In addition to winning the 1962 New Zealand x-country Championship (and NZ had some decent distance runners at that stage) he also beat the legendary Sir Murry Halberg (winner of the Olympic 5000m, 30 min after Snell's first Olympic 800m win) over 2000m.
Cooper isn't going to have that kind of capacity, as he's a faster type of runner. I think he's getting closer to Keely, who I've had said was an 800m specialist, but with more speed development is now more a 400/800m type.
Against a world-class 800m field Cooper has more speed, rather than more endurance than most.
I agree that Snell had more endurance which is also why he was great over the 1500/mile. But I think Lutkenhaus is towards the endurance end of the 800 spectrum because there would be quite a few guys who could run 21 and 21-low over the 200, and he doesn't appear to be near that. As I previously mentioned, even Tim Courtney was a 21-flat runner, as was George Kerr, and Crothers was near that. Juantorena was really fast - 20.7. So far, I think CL looks like he could be a 21-high guy - similar in that regard to Coe. But it's still pretty fast and certainly fast enough to dominate the 800.
He is still nowhere near the 400 runner that he is over the 800 - yet you say he has run the event plenty of times. I don't know why you trying to make him out to be what he clearly isn't and never will be, which is a 400 runner of equivalent ability to his 800 ability.
Nobody is doing that. I’m glad you’ve abandoned your arguments though.
You're totally dishonest. That is what many are effectively suggesting, including you - otherwise you're simply arguing he could one day run faster than 46. That isn't the issue and I'm not debating that. If the question is whether he could double over the 400 that would require he be world class over the distance, which is at least 44-low - 2 seconds faster than he has ever run. But if you're giving up on that then you're conceding he won't be.
May as well join the 'Endurance" / "Speed' scrap. Some info on Snell : He was the Owairaka Athletic Club 200m record holder for quite a few years : 22 secs flat on a Grass Track. Also a little story : Many years ago in the middle of a foul Auckland winter Arthur Lydiard had a crew doing repetition 800's on Blockhouse Bay Road ... on a slight down hill section .. Snell struggled through a session and got a lot of banter from the crew .. he had not beaten 2 minutes !!! .. One week later, same workout .. Last rep .. Snell 1:42 ... banter stopped ... I was not there but a close Mate was. Catch ya again soon.
Sure. That ranks with the Glenn Cunningham High School 4 minute mile story.