Enjoy the fun while you can OP. When the Ultimate championship comes or in 2027 at the lastest when Hocker wins the double, you would have to shut up permanently.
I'm not the OP. In the meantime Hocker loses again in the national championships in his main distance. 5th. Obviously he must have been "sick". Or does he run his best times when he is sick?
Maybe Hocker could control the race fresh but he’s a 3:45.9 guy doubling against several guys who will run 3:31 or better outdoors.
Brother, slow down. Calling it a double when there weren’t any rounds in the 1500m is a little too generous.
“Several guys” is a stretch. Almost all of them are 3:33-3:36 outdoors with the exception of Nuguse and Vincent Ciattei(3:31.67). At last year’s worlds, Jakob easily wore down the field by winding it up from 800m out, he even surged to hold his lead when Pallitsch tried to jostle him for first and Gourley/Nader/Houser were right there trying to go. This was after winning the 3000m in the worlds last year. And they had heats in the 1500m the day before that. That race actually had several guys that are 3:31 or better outdoors lol
Brother, slow down. Calling it a double when there weren’t any rounds in the 1500m is a little too generous.
“Several guys” is a stretch. Almost all of them are 3:33-3:36 outdoors with the exception of Nuguse and Vincent Ciattei(3:31.67). At last year’s worlds, Jakob easily wore down the field by winding it up from 800m out, he even surged to hold his lead when Pallitsch tried to jostle him for first and Gourley/Nader/Houser were right there trying to go. This was after winning the 3000m in the worlds last year. And they had heats in the 1500m the day before that. That race actually had several guys that are 3:31 or better outdoors lol
Nathan Green has a 3:32.2, and his fastest times come from championship races so far. It’s about what shape you are in and guys like Bove, Teare and Porter have run 3:50 for the mile this year, indicating 3:33 fitness. Cawthra dipped under 3:34 as well. Gourley and Nader were in about 3:32 shape at the time as evidenced by their buildup races (3:49.2 in a blazing fast Millrose for Gourley, 3:32-mid in a straight time trial for Nader). Again Luke Houser (who was just 3rd at USAs btw) beat everyone but the top two and Gourley out positioned him which was the reason he beat him, not fitness.
That being said, Jakob IS better at doubling I suspect. But that doesn’t mean the difficulty of doing it vs deeper USA fields should be diminished.
EDIT: 3:51.08 for Bove, apologies
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
One other note Jakob had a 9-person final, and this was a 12-person final. It had guys coming in with seasonal bests in the 3:35-6 range (Pallitsch, Garcia) because of how many athletes declined to attend the meet.
Nathan Green has a 3:32.2, and his fastest times come from championship races so far. It’s about what shape you are in and guys like Bove, Teare and Porter have run 3:50 for the mile this year, indicating 3:33 fitness. Cawthra dipped under 3:34 as well. Gourley and Nader were in about 3:32 shape at the time as evidenced by their buildup races (3:49.2 in a blazing fast Millrose for Gourley, 3:32-mid in a straight time trial for Nader). Again Luke Houser (who was just 3rd at USAs btw) beat everyone but the top two and Gourley out positioned him which was the reason he beat him, not fitness.
That being said, Jakob IS better at doubling I suspect. But that doesn’t mean the difficulty of doing it vs deeper USA fields should be diminished.
EDIT: 3:51.08 for Bove, apologies
So then Houser's in 3:35 shape, and Green and Ciattei are in 3:33 shape.
Or are we only doing this when it helps your argument?
That being said, Jakob IS better at doubling I suspect. But that doesn’t mean the difficulty of doing it vs deeper USA fields should be diminished.
lol you really like moving the goal posts as evidenced by how all over the place your response was.
regardless of Jakob’s 9 man field vs Hocker’s 12 man field: more guys were “3:31 outdoors or better” in Jakobs race(post double) than Hocker’s race.
You literally made the standard “3:31 or better outdoors”, not anyone else. And then you waffle between mile shape times/current 1500m shape/and whatever else that was. And none of it changes the fact that Jakob doubled the 1500m in a deeper field than Hocker’s 5th place finish in a weaker field. You’d think a legitimate 3:27 outdoor guy would have raced a little better than 5th place against a deep field that was missing Kessler/Hoey/Koech/Strand
lol you really like moving the goal posts as evidenced by how all over the place your response was.
regardless of Jakob’s 9 man field vs Hocker’s 12 man field: more guys were “3:31 outdoors or better” in Jakobs race(post double) than Hocker’s race.
You literally made the standard “3:31 or better outdoors”, not anyone else. And then you waffle between mile shape times/current 1500m shape/and whatever else that was. And none of it changes the fact that Jakob doubled the 1500m in a deeper field than Hocker’s 5th place finish in a weaker field. You’d think a legitimate 3:27 outdoor guy would have raced a little better than 5th place against a deep field that was missing Kessler/Hoey/Koech/Strand
There is no way you are arguing a 9-person field with only 3 guys in 3:34/3:51 shape or better based on SBs is deeper than a 12-person field with Hocker, Nuguse, Teare, Porter, Bove, Green, Cawthra comprising half of it with those benchmarks. Im just telling you that Nathan Green PBing outdoors is pretty much a formality, which I think you know.
There is no way you are arguing a 9-person field with only 3 guys in 3:34/3:51 shape or better based on SBs is deeper than a 12-person field with Hocker, Nuguse, Teare, Porter, Bove, Green, Cawthra
When you speak to people in person, do they routinely walk away from you mid-conversation and begin bashing their heads against the wall?
Clearly I am not arguing whatever nonsense you are proposing now - we are talking about the 1500m and comparing it to 1500m results. Let me clearly remind you of what you said when comparing Hocker’s field on Sunday to being deeper than vs Jakob’s field in Nanjing: “3:31 or faster outdoors”. I didn’t create this standard, you did.
Porter: 3:35, Green: 3:32, Houser: 3:33.99, Bove: 3:35, Teare: 3:32, Cawthra: 3:33. You can’t claim Hocker’s field as being stronger competition by including Hocker’s name in it.
Only Nuguse and Ciattei meet this standard, every one else on Sunday is lucky to collect a sponsored check from season to season. None of them are collecting podium purses. USATF’s 1500m men’s indoor final was a statistically weak field and Hocker got out run and out kicked by 4 of them.
Jakob’s field had Philstrom, Ben, Nader, Gourley who have run 3:31 or better outdoors. He also beat Houser, who beat then went on to beat Hocker on Sunday.
so if I had to judge between the two fields: a 12 man field with only 3 real threats and 9 journeymen, or a 9 man field with 5 threats and 4 journeymen - pretty obvious what the real answer is.
Enjoy the fun while you can OP. When the Ultimate championship comes or in 2027 at the lastest when Hocker wins the double, you would have to shut up permanently.
You mean unlike WC 2025, when he failed to make the final?
And unlike USATF Indoor 2026, when he failed to make the team?
Brother, slow down. Calling it a double when there weren’t any rounds in the 1500m is a little too generous.
“Several guys” is a stretch. Almost all of them are 3:33-3:36 outdoors with the exception of Nuguse and Vincent Ciattei(3:31.67). At last year’s worlds, Jakob easily wore down the field by winding it up from 800m out, he even surged to hold his lead when Pallitsch tried to jostle him for first and Gourley/Nader/Houser were right there trying to go. This was after winning the 3000m in the worlds last year. And they had heats in the 1500m the day before that. That race actually had several guys that are 3:31 or better outdoors lol
Nathan Green has a 3:32.2, and his fastest times come from championship races so far. It’s about what shape you are in and guys like Bove, Teare and Porter have run 3:50 for the mile this year, indicating 3:33 fitness. Cawthra dipped under 3:34 as well. Gourley and Nader were in about 3:32 shape at the time as evidenced by their buildup races (3:49.2 in a blazing fast Millrose for Gourley, 3:32-mid in a straight time trial for Nader). Again Luke Houser (who was just 3rd at USAs btw) beat everyone but the top two and Gourley out positioned him which was the reason he beat him, not fitness.
That being said, Jakob IS better at doubling I suspect. But that doesn’t mean the difficulty of doing it vs deeper USA fields should be diminished.
Porter: 3:35, Green: 3:32, Houser: 3:33.99, Bove: 3:35, Teare: 3:32, Cawthra: 3:33. You can’t claim Hocker’s field as being stronger competition by including Hocker’s name in it.
Only Nuguse and Ciattei meet this standard, every one else on Sunday is lucky to collect a sponsored check from season to season. None of them are collecting podium purses. USATF’s 1500m men’s indoor final was a statistically weak field and Hocker got out run and out kicked by 4 of them.
When you speak to people in person, do they routinely walk away from you mid-conversation and begin bashing their heads against the wall?
Clearly I am not arguing whatever nonsense you are proposing now - we are talking about the 1500m and comparing it to 1500m results. Let me clearly remind you of what you said when comparing Hocker’s field on Sunday to being deeper than vs Jakob’s field in Nanjing: “3:31 or faster outdoors”. I didn’t create this standard, you did.
Porter: 3:35, Green: 3:32, Houser: 3:33.99, Bove: 3:35, Teare: 3:32, Cawthra: 3:33. You can’t claim Hocker’s field as being stronger competition by including Hocker’s name in it.
Only Nuguse and Ciattei meet this standard, every one else on Sunday is lucky to collect a sponsored check from season to season. None of them are collecting podium purses. USATF’s 1500m men’s indoor final was a statistically weak field and Hocker got out run and out kicked by 4 of them.
Jakob’s field had Philstrom, Ben, Nader, Gourley who have run 3:31 or better outdoors. He also beat Houser, who beat then went on to beat Hocker on Sunday.
so if I had to judge between the two fields: a 12 man field with only 3 real threats and 9 journeymen, or a 9 man field with 5 threats and 4 journeymen - pretty obvious what the real answer is.
So you think it is more reasonable to compare athletes on their future accomplishments vs. what they actually brought into the race?
The FORM of athletes of course is most important. Jakob faced two athletes who'd shown good form in Gourley (3:49 at Millrose, easily beaten by Nuguse/Kessler but decent). Nader 3:32 in a time trial designed for Habz (again beaten somewhat easily, but still decent). Houser was the surprise in both races, but at this point it shouldn't be a surprise.
The rest of Jakob's list of 8 competitors were Philstrom, Ben, Pallitsch, Mariano Garcia. These guys came in 3:35-6 shape as evidenced by their buildup races. Jakob looked at the mid-30s Pallitsch as almost a comical nuisance. The scrub had the gall to try to pass him in the race. The attempt was pretty half-hearted, and Jakob let him know about it too afterwards.
Now in Hocker's race, you had Nuguse who ran 3:48-low for the mile at Millrose while sick, and the following athletes in these demonstrable levels of fitness: Teare/Porter/Green (3:50 miles, Green's solo the second half and Porter's FTW separating over the last lap) Cawthra/Ciattei (3:33 1500) Bove/Prakel (3:51 mile) Houser
And whatever you want to say about guys in 3:35/3:52 shape like Teffra, Allen...just their presence alone and having 12 guys on the track is inherently more difficult than contending with 9. There is zero question USAs was deeper than last year's World Indoors field from the level of competitive athletes to the field size.
Again, I think Jakob is better at doubling, but this was a difficult spot for anybody. My Green point about how fast he'll run is more to indicate he's never been in a straight time trial outdoors. He will assuredly improve. Meanwhile, guys like Porter, Cawthra, and Bove are in the midst of breakout seasons.
When you speak to people in person, do they routinely walk away from you mid-conversation and begin bashing their heads against the wall?
Clearly I am not arguing whatever nonsense you are proposing now - we are talking about the 1500m and comparing it to 1500m results. Let me clearly remind you of what you said when comparing Hocker’s field on Sunday to being deeper than vs Jakob’s field in Nanjing: “3:31 or faster outdoors”. I didn’t create this standard, you did.
Porter: 3:35, Green: 3:32, Houser: 3:33.99, Bove: 3:35, Teare: 3:32, Cawthra: 3:33. You can’t claim Hocker’s field as being stronger competition by including Hocker’s name in it.
Only Nuguse and Ciattei meet this standard, every one else on Sunday is lucky to collect a sponsored check from season to season. None of them are collecting podium purses. USATF’s 1500m men’s indoor final was a statistically weak field and Hocker got out run and out kicked by 4 of them.
Jakob’s field had Philstrom, Ben, Nader, Gourley who have run 3:31 or better outdoors. He also beat Houser, who beat then went on to beat Hocker on Sunday.
so if I had to judge between the two fields: a 12 man field with only 3 real threats and 9 journeymen, or a 9 man field with 5 threats and 4 journeymen - pretty obvious what the real answer is.
So you think it is more reasonable to compare athletes on their future accomplishments vs. what they actually brought into the race?
The FORM of athletes of course is most important. Jakob faced two athletes who'd shown good form in Gourley (3:49 at Millrose, easily beaten by Nuguse/Kessler but decent). Nader 3:32 in a time trial designed for Habz (again beaten somewhat easily, but still decent). Houser was the surprise in both races, but at this point it shouldn't be a surprise.
The rest of Jakob's list of 8 competitors were Philstrom, Ben, Pallitsch, Mariano Garcia. These guys came in 3:35-6 shape as evidenced by their buildup races. Jakob looked at the mid-30s Pallitsch as almost a comical nuisance. The scrub had the gall to try to pass him in the race. The attempt was pretty half-hearted, and Jakob let him know about it too afterwards.
Now in Hocker's race, you had Nuguse who ran 3:48-low for the mile at Millrose while sick, and the following athletes in these demonstrable levels of fitness: Teare/Porter/Green (3:50 miles, Green's solo the second half and Porter's FTW separating over the last lap) Cawthra/Ciattei (3:33 1500) Bove/Prakel (3:51 mile) Houser
And whatever you want to say about guys in 3:35/3:52 shape like Teffra, Allen...just their presence alone and having 12 guys on the track is inherently more difficult than contending with 9. There is zero question USAs was deeper than last year's World Indoors field from the level of competitive athletes to the field size.
Again, I think Jakob is better at doubling, but this was a difficult spot for anybody. My Green point about how fast he'll run is more to indicate he's never been in a straight time trial outdoors. He will assuredly improve. Meanwhile, guys like Porter, Cawthra, and Bove are in the midst of breakout seasons.
Your point would only make sense if it were debatable Jakob would have won the USATF race, it isn’t, Hocker just underperformed immensely and the strength of either field is irrelevant.
Your point would only make sense if it were debatable Jakob would have won the USATF race, it isn’t, Hocker just underperformed immensely and the strength of either field is irrelevant.
Exactly. And the deflection of the underperforming because of doubling (when there were no rounds for either event) or strength of competition is a little tired.
People want to tout Cole as being equal to Jakob, but if Jakob finished 5th in Euro indoors, people would be merciless. If Cole's gonna be talked about as the best in the world, there are gonna be criticisms when he underperforms. This is one of those times.
Your point would only make sense if it were debatable Jakob would have won the USATF race, it isn’t, Hocker just underperformed immensely and the strength of either field is irrelevant.
Exactly. And the deflection of the underperforming because of doubling (when there were no rounds for either event) or strength of competition is a little tired.
People want to tout Cole as being equal to Jakob, but if Jakob finished 5th in Euro indoors, people would be merciless. If Cole's gonna be talked about as the best in the world, there are gonna be criticisms when he underperforms. This is one of those times.
I’ve said Jakob is better at doubling. He runs 110mpw, his strength is pretty much unmatched for a 1500 guy. I have criticized Hocker for the loss. His tactics were bad. Now are you saying it’s 100% probability that 2025 winter shape Jakob wins that race the day after a 3K vs Nico, Yared and Hocker. If you are I don’t agree. I’m not sure why I’d be convinced he’d win. I’d make him favorite but vs. a strong 12-person field with many guys fresh and no pacing it’s not close to guaranteed.
Exactly. And the deflection of the underperforming because of doubling (when there were no rounds for either event) or strength of competition is a little tired.
People want to tout Cole as being equal to Jakob, but if Jakob finished 5th in Euro indoors, people would be merciless. If Cole's gonna be talked about as the best in the world, there are gonna be criticisms when he underperforms. This is one of those times.
I’ve said Jakob is better at doubling. He runs 110mpw, his strength is pretty much unmatched for a 1500 guy. I have criticized Hocker for the loss. His tactics were bad. Now are you saying it’s 100% probability that 2025 winter shape Jakob wins that race the day after a 3K vs Nico, Yared and Hocker. If you are I don’t agree. I’m not sure why I’d be convinced he’d win. I’d make him favorite but vs. a strong 12-person field with many guys fresh and no pacing it’s not close to guaranteed.
Yeah, I'd say Jakob would win. He doubled in Euros and Worlds last year, he's double at Euros 3 straight times, and Euro indoors 3 straight times. I do not think he'd get beaten by Green, Ciattei, Nuguse and Houser. Moreover, I would say if he did beat them, it wouldn't be that big of a deal, and it wouldn't be seen as a crazy stacked field (see last year's Euros when he beat Almgren, Laros, Habz, Mills, Gourley, and Nader.)
And for comparison sake, it is weird to include Hocker in the list of people Hocker beat in the 3k.
Maybe Hocker could control the race fresh but he’s a 3:45.9 guy doubling against several guys who will run 3:31 or better outdoors.
Brother, slow down. Calling it a double when there weren’t any rounds in the 1500m is a little too generous.
“Several guys” is a stretch. Almost all of them are 3:33-3:36 outdoors with the exception of Nuguse and Vincent Ciattei(3:31.67). At last year’s worlds, Jakob easily wore down the field by winding it up from 800m out, he even surged to hold his lead when Pallitsch tried to jostle him for first and Gourley/Nader/Houser were right there trying to go. This was after winning the 3000m in the worlds last year. And they had heats in the 1500m the day before that. That race actually had several guys that are 3:31 or better outdoors lol
Heats where Jakob casually dropped a 52.7/25.7 to finish a 3:39.
I know it's a pedestrian time, but it bears looking at with the times we saw run last week.
Yeah, I'd say Jakob would win. He doubled in Euros and Worlds last year, he's double at Euros 3 straight times, and Euro indoors 3 straight times. I do not think he'd get beaten by Green, Ciattei, Nuguse and Houser. Moreover, I would say if he did beat them, it wouldn't be that big of a deal, and it wouldn't be seen as a crazy stacked field (see last year's Euros when he beat Almgren, Laros, Habz, Mills, Gourley, and Nader.)
And for comparison sake, it is weird to include Hocker in the list of people Hocker beat in the 3k.
To be clear Laros was a non-factor. Of the guys you mentioned who comprise both events, Mills was the most in form but I’d take both Nuguse and Nico Young over him in the 3K. And then in the 1500, again a 9-person final with 4 fit guys (2 were eliminated in a collision - Gourley and Farken), so it was Habz and Nader. I’d take this years Nuguse over either of them at their level of fitness at that time. Jakob would certainly be favored to win but he’s been favored in 2022-2024 and lost in unpaced championship final races where he’s faced the best. The point is not that Hocker is Jakob but that doubling at USAs wasn’t easy. A 12-person field with more fit guys who are fresh ups the difficulty over 9-person finals with 3-4 guys filling lanes mostly.
Yeah, I'd say Jakob would win. He doubled in Euros and Worlds last year, he's double at Euros 3 straight times, and Euro indoors 3 straight times. I do not think he'd get beaten by Green, Ciattei, Nuguse and Houser. Moreover, I would say if he did beat them, it wouldn't be that big of a deal, and it wouldn't be seen as a crazy stacked field (see last year's Euros when he beat Almgren, Laros, Habz, Mills, Gourley, and Nader.)
And for comparison sake, it is weird to include Hocker in the list of people Hocker beat in the 3k.
To be clear Laros was a non-factor. Of the guys you mentioned who comprise both events, Mills was the most in form but I’d take both Nuguse and Nico Young over him in the 3K. And then in the 1500, again a 9-person final with 4 fit guys (2 were eliminated in a collision - Gourley and Farken), so it was Habz and Nader. I’d take this years Nuguse over either of them at their level of fitness at that time. Jakob would certainly be favored to win but he’s been favored in 2022-2024 and lost in unpaced championship final races where he’s faced the best. The point is not that Hocker is Jakob but that doubling at USAs wasn’t easy. A 12-person field with more fit guys who are fresh ups the difficulty over 9-person finals with 3-4 guys filling lanes mostly.
I’d take Mills over Nuguse and Young. I’d take Nader over Nuguse because one is WC and the other is bronze. Also Nader closed with better splits than Nuguse in Apeldoorn. Habz too. Paced time trials don’t translate to championships in my opinion.