I'm having trouble linking it, but there is a long, public post on fb from Victoria Brown, a Canadian ultra runner who had a run in with Camille over a record she broke and Camille contested 7 weeks ago. Howie Stern weighs in as do a number of other runners.
It's...interesting. all you need to do is search "Victoria brown ultra runner" and the post comes up.
From a substack after I searched it (of course, Herron deleted her tweet):
In UTMB news: Camille Herron has since deleted the tweet, but she originally shared notes from the call the pro trail runners had with the race directors — and what she shared were notes where the organizers said they didn’t want to offer too much prize money or it might attract runners from Africa, who wouldn’t be there for the right reasons. (We talked about this some in the Q&A with the author of the UTMB book. There was some concern that in the past sketchy agents had taken the money and it created distorted incentives. But yep, it is also what you think it is.) (Twitter/Triathlonish)
Given my knowledge of them and my limited dealing with them (both before and after she got into ultras)... when the story broke I immediately thought it seemed much more like Conner's doings then it did Camille. He always came across as being more aggressive, paranoid, arrogant, and protective of meal ticket then she does. I also have always assumed (after having met them, followed and interacted with them a few times) that he runs her social media for her the majority of the time. Just my speculation but I think he is that he is the feeder of her paranoia of others. So the over-reaction to this story by them with the deletion of her X and IG accounts (which they tirelessly built for the last decade) seems like his doing (short Irish temper) and may indicate sad news to come. I can't imagine being a world champion and WR holder and having a major sponsor and then deleting my social media accounts unless I had done something that got me dropped by that sponsor and likely branded un-sponsorable (at least for a while) going forward. Sure sponsors care about your greatness, but as an athlete and as a person. If your quest to prove the first shows your lack of the second then that is a risk you take and when you resort to unhanded tactics ... it can backfire.
She likely just deactivated them - easy to restore. And I would agree he seems to be the more unhinged and she will probably blame him for this to escape getting dropped by her sponsors, but if you function as a unit, shouldn't be an excuse.
So, I think the issue isn't just the Wikipedia, but also the scathing reports of her general behavior from others inside the sport.
I'm like you: I saw her posts as jaguar1 and thought it was cool that such an elite ultrarunner posted here. I don't remember her posts as being particularly controversial, certainly nothing like many of the posters on here...
More recently I've heard negative rumblings around Herron, but nothing concrete enough to take seriously since you never know how much to trust the source of anonymous posts. (e.g. sometimes people criticise Sage Canaday, and by all appearances he is a gem of a person).
But the reaction to this incident is pretty damning. Imagine if instead the reaction from the ultra community was "Wow, that doesn't sound like Camille at all. She's such a nice person, and a pillar of our community". I think the reaction would be very different, less "terrible person" and more "I hope she's ok".
It's not just that the Wikipedia editing shows a sustained (years-long!) narcissism, selfishness, and pettiness, but that this seems entirely consistent with what appears to be her modus operandi. Going after performances that beat hers to try to get them thrown out on technicalities? Some of the stories on this thread? That quote from Trishul Cherns? These paint a very bad picture.
Individually, maybe you could justify each of these behaviors. Perhaps she's extremely fastidious about rules and would hold her own performances to the same standard? Well, her Wikipedia behavior suggests something very different. Perhaps the anonymous stories on this thread are wrong or embellished? Well, it would be an awfully big coincidence given how many there are, and how well it meshes with her Wikipedia behavior. And the Wikipedia edting alone I could imagine being a deep, obsessive sickness in one isolated area of her mental health...if it didn't match so well with everything else we've learned over the past couple days.
I take your point that it's best not to jump to conclusions. But this shouldn't be a way to excuse bad behavior; if everyone stands down, then the story becomes old news, and Herron's bad behavior can continue. I do commit to keeping an open mind: if it later comes out that this was all a concerted frame-job (extremely unlikely), I commit to completely revising my opinion of Herron. And (more plausibly), if we learn more about the mental illness and struggles which have led Herron to this point, I will (and do) have sympathy for her--certainly, she seems profoundly unhappy. To the extent that she can change what seem to be core behaviors, I don't meant to permanently shun her.
But from all reports, Herron has directly and indirectly harmed many people in the ultrarunning community, continues to do so, and has no intention of stopping (unless this scandal has caused some introspection). This is the key revelation, and we shouldn't overlook it in service of some sort of all-purpose neutrality.
Thank you for this thoughtful post. I've tried to articulate that I agree that going into this, I do have a bias based on my perceptual history of interactions with her, both online and in "real life." That does not mean I am defending her. This is not a trial, it's a discussion. I only included one example (LetsRun posts) because I'm not looking to build her entire defense in this "case." I'm trying to process the entire history of her character. I'm not excusing anything, I am asking for more information and specific examples of things she has said and done aside from the Wikipedia editing. Asking because I have missed it, not because I'm saying it doesn't exist.
As far as "mental illness," what we do know is she is neurodivergent, diagnosed with both autism and ADHD, both of which are cognitive disabilities, not mental illness. You can find a lot of info online about how ND traits can look a lot like narcissism.
Again, my intention is not use her autism/ADHD as an excuse (avoiding blame), but rather as a reason/contributor for her behavior.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I'm having trouble linking it, but there is a long, public post on fb from Victoria Brown, a Canadian ultra runner who had a run in with Camille over a record she broke and Camille contested 7 weeks ago. Howie Stern weighs in as do a number of other runners.
It's...interesting. all you need to do is search "Victoria brown ultra runner" and the post comes up.
How can she lose the case when she hasn't even provided a defense?
Camille already gave her defense that she didn't do it and is being framed. After public deliberations and weighing the evidence, COPO has rejected Camille's arguments
So, I think the issue isn't just the Wikipedia, but also the scathing reports of her general behavior from others inside the sport.
I'm like you: I saw her posts as jaguar1 and thought it was cool that such an elite ultrarunner posted here. I don't remember her posts as being particularly controversial, certainly nothing like many of the posters on here...
More recently I've heard negative rumblings around Herron, but nothing concrete enough to take seriously since you never know how much to trust the source of anonymous posts. (e.g. sometimes people criticise Sage Canaday, and by all appearances he is a gem of a person).
But the reaction to this incident is pretty damning. Imagine if instead the reaction from the ultra community was "Wow, that doesn't sound like Camille at all. She's such a nice person, and a pillar of our community". I think the reaction would be very different, less "terrible person" and more "I hope she's ok".
It's not just that the Wikipedia editing shows a sustained (years-long!) narcissism, selfishness, and pettiness, but that this seems entirely consistent with what appears to be her modus operandi. Going after performances that beat hers to try to get them thrown out on technicalities? Some of the stories on this thread? That quote from Trishul Cherns? These paint a very bad picture.
Individually, maybe you could justify each of these behaviors. Perhaps she's extremely fastidious about rules and would hold her own performances to the same standard? Well, her Wikipedia behavior suggests something very different. Perhaps the anonymous stories on this thread are wrong or embellished? Well, it would be an awfully big coincidence given how many there are, and how well it meshes with her Wikipedia behavior. And the Wikipedia edting alone I could imagine being a deep, obsessive sickness in one isolated area of her mental health...if it didn't match so well with everything else we've learned over the past couple days.
I take your point that it's best not to jump to conclusions. But this shouldn't be a way to excuse bad behavior; if everyone stands down, then the story becomes old news, and Herron's bad behavior can continue. I do commit to keeping an open mind: if it later comes out that this was all a concerted frame-job (extremely unlikely), I commit to completely revising my opinion of Herron. And (more plausibly), if we learn more about the mental illness and struggles which have led Herron to this point, I will (and do) have sympathy for her--certainly, she seems profoundly unhappy. To the extent that she can change what seem to be core behaviors, I don't meant to permanently shun her.
But from all reports, Herron has directly and indirectly harmed many people in the ultrarunning community, continues to do so, and has no intention of stopping (unless this scandal has caused some introspection). This is the key revelation, and we shouldn't overlook it in service of some sort of all-purpose neutrality.
Thank you for this thoughtful post. I've tried to articulate that I agree that going into this, I do have a bias based on my perceptual history of interactions with her, both online and in "real life." That does not mean I am defending her. This is not a trial, it's a discussion. I only included one example (LetsRun posts) because I'm not looking to build her entire defense in this "case." I'm trying to process the entire history of her character. I'm not excusing anything, I am asking for more information and specific examples of things she has said and done aside from the Wikipedia editing. Asking because I have missed it, not because I'm saying it doesn't exist.
As far as "mental illness," what we do know is she is neurodivergent, diagnosed with both autism and ADHD, both of which are cognitive disabilities, not mental illness. You can find a lot of info online about how ND traits can look a lot like narcissism.
Again, my intention is not use her autism/ADHD as an excuse (avoiding blame), but rather as a reason/contributor for her behavior.
Are you a psychologist? How can you attribute this kind of behavior to ADHD/autism even as a contributing factor? How did you reach this conclusion?
I don't want to read the entire thread but I beleive I saw someone paraphrase you that you can't wait for Citius Magazine to research the story as they are unbiased.
Canadian Running Magazine is publication as legit as they come, adhering to the rigor and customary journalistic standards and practices of the industry. I don't look at Citius Magazine, so withold judgement in terms of bias, but the one instance that I saw a fangirl in the media zone interviewing a top-level athlete shocked me. I thought some fan has snuck into the media zone, but she was representing Citius. It was a terrible display of bias in favour of the athlete and very bubblegum fan behaviour. No legit publication should hire or have interns or be represented by that behavior. Canadian Running Magazine certainly would not.
Whatever Herron's defence may be, it will have to be an amazing story to get out of this with her reputation in tact, but yes, she is innocent until proven guilty. Or not guilty until proven otherwise.
I'm having trouble linking it, but there is a long, public post on fb from Victoria Brown, a Canadian ultra runner who had a run in with Camille over a record she broke and Camille contested 7 weeks ago. Howie Stern weighs in as do a number of other runners.
It's...interesting. all you need to do is search "Victoria brown ultra runner" and the post comes up.
Blimey!! The post reads as follows:
Imagine someone attempting to invalidate your Canadian national record - who is not Canadian and has no stake in the record! Without even being present at the race! Of course, after careful investigation, the ACU dismissed the false accusations and my record stands. Imagine this same person whining and complaining to a major running magazine editor to take down articles (unsuccessfully) praising your accomplishments! Imagine this woman relentlessly lobbying to invalidate other women’s world records! Imagine her audacity to try to discredit world-class performances like Harvey Lewis’ backyard ultra world record of 108 hours, 450 miles! Ironically, some of my friends had said to me, “You are lucky that you are in Canada, so she can’t hurt you.” However, that clearly hasn’t stopped this meddling person from trying! Ultrarunning is a niche sport, with timed races representing the niche of the niche. Shouldn’t we be lifting each other up rather than trying to drag each other down? Sadly, the athlete presents herself as an advocate for women while actively engaging in harmful behavior against her female competitors. How does that align with advocating for women? If she cannot accept that she is not the only exceptional athlete in the sport of ultrarunning and that others with far less support and resources can still match and even exceed her results, then it’s time to take a deep look inside. It’s important to address the fundamental insecurities behind this destructive attitude and to stop lifting oneself up by pushing others down. If she did this, she wouldn’t need to wonder why some brands and organizations are reluctant to be associated with her and opportunities are denied to her. I wonder how long certain brands will want to be associated with this moral. We need to address and eradicate negative bullying that damages our sport and our community. Women should unite and speak out against behavior that not only harms our reputations but also affects our mental health. By working together, we can create a safer and more positive environment for everyone in our sport.
If this is all true about Camille, then it is pretty bad. I do wonder though where the outrage is from everyone at our government, that basically does the same thing with altering information coming out of media/ information sources.
I'm having trouble linking it, but there is a long, public post on fb from Victoria Brown, a Canadian ultra runner who had a run in with Camille over a record she broke and Camille contested 7 weeks ago. Howie Stern weighs in as do a number of other runners.
It's...interesting. all you need to do is search "Victoria brown ultra runner" and the post comes up.
Found it, read it. Totally bonkers.
I found it. Wow. It's Viktoria Brown (not Victoria) and she posted on August 2 of this year. The comments are as much or more interesting than the post, given how many other ultrarunners weighed in about Camille and other incidents. Here is what Viktoria posted and, though she didn't use Camille's name in the post, she acknowledged in the comments that it was Camille who she is referring to.
"Imagine someone attempting to invalidate your Canadian national record - who is not Canadian and has no stake in the record! Without even being present at the race! Of course, after careful investigation, the ACU dismissed the false accusations and my record stands. Imagine this same person whining and complaining to a major running magazine editor to take down articles (unsuccessfully) praising your accomplishments! Imagine this woman relentlessly lobbying to invalidate other women’s world records! Imagine her audacity to try to discredit world-class performances like Harvey Lewis’ backyard ultra world record of 108 hours, 450 miles!
Ironically, some of my friends had said to me, “You are lucky that you are in Canada, so she can’t hurt you.” However, that clearly hasn’t stopped this meddling person from trying! Ultrarunning is a niche sport, with timed races representing the niche of the niche. Shouldn’t we be lifting each other up rather than trying to drag each other down? Sadly, the athlete presents herself as an advocate for women while actively engaging in harmful behavior against her female competitors. How does that align with advocating for women? If she cannot accept that she is not the only exceptional athlete in the sport of ultrarunning and that others with far less support and resources can still match and even exceed her results, then it’s time to take a deep look inside. It’s important to address the fundamental insecurities behind this destructive attitude and to stop lifting oneself up by pushing others down. If she did this, she wouldn’t need to wonder why some brands and organizations are reluctant to be associated with her and opportunities are denied to her. I wonder how long certain brands will want to be associated with this moral.
We need to address and eradicate negative bullying that damages our sport and our community. Women should unite and speak out against behavior that not only harms our reputations but also affects our mental health. By working together, we can create a safer and more positive environment for everyone in our sport."
