How can a direct comparison of times be made between athletes competing 30 years apart? How would Coe stack up against the athletes of the 1950's? That's the same gap in time between him and Rudisha. This debate has become absurd.
Rudisha stacked up better against athletes of the 2009-2013 range better than Coe did, so your argument fails. Please try again.
I am not saying that overall Rudisha was not the superior 800m runner to Coe - he may have been, on competitive results - but to try to make that argument on times alone is misplaced when they were competing 3 decades apart. That said, it can be maintained that Coe was better in one significant respect, which is that he reduced the world mark by a far greater margin than Rudisha has. Rudisha's record is only 0.8s faster than Coe's record, which is an incremental improvement in 30 years. In the same period of time - 30 years - before Coe's record the world mark was almost 5 secs slower. Who would seriously try to compare Harbig and Courtenay with Coe? Yet the debate here treats Coe and Rudisha as though they were contemporaries.
I am not saying that overall Rudisha was not the superior 800m runner to Coe - he may have been, on competitive results - but to try to make that argument on times alone is misplaced when they were competing 3 decades apart. That said, it can be maintained that Coe was better in one significant respect, which is that he reduced the world mark by a far greater margin than Rudisha has. Rudisha's record is only 0.8s faster than Coe's record, which is an incremental improvement in 30 years. In the same period of time - 30 years - before Coe's record the world mark was almost 5 secs slower. Who would seriously try to compare Harbig and Courtenay with Coe? Yet the debate here treats Coe and Rudisha as though they were contemporaries.
Because the conditions of the day in 1980 or so and 2010 are closer than in 1950. From money in the sport to footwear, tracks, pacemaking and more. Not every 30-year chunk is worth the same. That's why you're not seeing athletes run 1:42s like they're nothing in this era.
Part of Coe's greatness was taking it to another level in the 800 in time trials. Then Kipketer combined that with more dominance and going even further down in time. Rudisha went one step further with both Kipketer's dominance but the legendary World Record and Olympic performances that Kipketer lacked.
This excludes Coe's amazing abilities in the 1500/mile, which I do not mean to overlook.
I am not saying that overall Rudisha was not the superior 800m runner to Coe - he may have been, on competitive results - but to try to make that argument on times alone is misplaced when they were competing 3 decades apart. That said, it can be maintained that Coe was better in one significant respect, which is that he reduced the world mark by a far greater margin than Rudisha has. Rudisha's record is only 0.8s faster than Coe's record, which is an incremental improvement in 30 years. In the same period of time - 30 years - before Coe's record the world mark was almost 5 secs slower. Who would seriously try to compare Harbig and Courtenay with Coe? Yet the debate here treats Coe and Rudisha as though they were contemporaries.
Because the conditions of the day in 1980 or so and 2010 are closer than in 1950. From money in the sport to footwear, tracks, pacemaking and more. Not every 30-year chunk is worth the same. That's why you're not seeing athletes run 1:42s like they're nothing in this era.
Part of Coe's greatness was taking it to another level in the 800 in time trials. Then Kipketer combined that with more dominance and going even further down in time. Rudisha went one step further with both Kipketer's dominance but the legendary World Record and Olympic performances that Kipketer lacked.
This excludes Coe's amazing abilities in the 1500/mile, which I do not mean to overlook.
Conditions being "closer" to 30 years ago does not mean they were the same. If Rudisha was competing in 1981 he may well have not beaten Coe or achieved the times Coe set. Conversely, peak-Coe may have run sub-1.41 in Rudisha's era. To me, the decisive factor is the superior number of championship golds Rudisha won. By the same token, I put Coe ahead of Kipketer.
So for those, who doubted my statement that Rudisha in average was 2 seconds faster than Coe, I carefully compiled this data from the All Time Lists @ worldathletics.org:
Since I did something very similar which I posted to this thread a few days ago, I noticed your math is a bit off on Coe’s top-10 average. He ran a 1:44.01 in London in’82, but that’s an odd result because WA doesn’t list a place in that race, so maybe it was unofficial in some way and you can discard it. Even so, the average of the top 10 times you listed is 1:43.375. Not a big difference, but I just like stats to be correct.
So for those, who doubted my statement that Rudisha in average was 2 seconds faster than Coe, I carefully compiled this data from the All Time Lists @ worldathletics.org:
Since I did something very similar which I posted to this thread a few days ago, I noticed your math is a bit off on Coe’s top-10 average. He ran a 1:44.01 in London in’82, but that’s an odd result because WA doesn’t list a place in that race, so maybe it was unofficial in some way and you can discard it. Even so, the average of the top 10 times you listed is 1:43.375. Not a big difference, but I just like stats to be correct.
Conditions being "closer" to 30 years ago does not mean they were the same. If Rudisha was competing in 1981 he may well have not beaten Coe or achieved the times Coe set. Conversely, peak-Coe may have run sub-1.41 in Rudisha's era. To me, the decisive factor is the superior number of championship golds Rudisha won. By the same token, I put Coe ahead of Kipketer.
At 800, Kipketer won 3 World Titles and Coe won no Global Titles. You might say well he had no chance to win one in 1979, that's not fair. Well, could you not say the same thing for Kipketer in 1994? 1981 same thing, but wouldn't you say the same thing about Kipketer in 1996.
If you actually look at their careers you might see quite a bit of similarities except one guys got the big wins and lasted longer in the 800.
1979 vs. 1994: Both likely the best in the world, but no Major Champs
1980 vs. 1995: Kipketer wins Gold. Coe settles for Silver. Both lose a post-champs races after boing undefeated ahead of the global champs.
1981 vs. 1996: Both have essentially perfect seasons with no global champs opportunity. Both run 1:41s (Coe's a World Record). Coe doesn't race Ovett. Kipketer races and beats everyone.
1982 vs. 1997: Kipketer sets two World Records, and has an undefeated season including a Global Title. Coe doesn't win Europeans, losing to Hans-Peter Ferner convincingly.
1983 vs. 1998 (snake-bit): Coe's season is impacted by injury and is cut short (no Worlds). Kipketer contracts Malaria runs well, but has contact with Schumann and finishes poorly at Euros
1984 vs. 1999: Kipketer has perfect season, and wins World Title. Coe is beaten soundly by Cruz in LA after winning his two tune-up races.
1985 vs. 2000: Kipketer finishes second at the Olympics after showing inferior form. Coe has no Worlds, but loses soundly to Cruz in Koln.
1986 vs. 2002 (Kipketer misses 2001): Both win European titles with no Global champs. You could argue either as no. 1 in the world this year, but it's no certainty.
Twilight of Career: Kipketer gets an Olympic bronze in this span. Coe's best chance was maybe 1989 but no champs. Ereng was the no 1 by a far margin that season. A medal might've been a stretch with Cram, McKean and Kiprotich in the mix for the lesser medals.
Kipketer never even lived in Denmark. He gained citizenship by marrying a Danish woman. He lived in Monaco (to avoid paying taxes to the country that granted him citizenship) when he represented Denmark, and for sure spent more time in Kenya during his career than Denmark. EPO was legal as well as undetectable in Kipketer's day.
And Paula Radcliffe also lived in Monaco and for sure spent more time in the US during her career than England.
EPO was legal as well as undetectable in Paula's day.
Yeah, and nearly everybody here thinks she doped. Ditto Mo.
I am not saying that overall Rudisha was not the superior 800m runner to Coe - he may have been, on competitive results - but to try to make that argument on times alone is misplaced when they were competing 3 decades apart. That said, it can be maintained that Coe was better in one significant respect, which is that he reduced the world mark by a far greater margin than Rudisha has. Rudisha's record is only 0.8s faster than Coe's record, which is an incremental improvement in 30 years. In the same period of time - 30 years - before Coe's record the world mark was almost 5 secs slower. Who would seriously try to compare Harbig and Courtenay with Coe? Yet the debate here treats Coe and Rudisha as though they were contemporaries.
Because the conditions of the day in 1980 or so and 2010 are closer than in 1950. From money in the sport to footwear, tracks, pacemaking and more. Not every 30-year chunk is worth the same. That's why you're not seeing athletes run 1:42s like they're nothing in this era.
Part of Coe's greatness was taking it to another level in the 800 in time trials. Then Kipketer combined that with more dominance and going even further down in time. Rudisha went one step further with both Kipketer's dominance but the legendary World Record and Olympic performances that Kipketer lacked.
This excludes Coe's amazing abilities in the 1500/mile, which I do not mean to overlook.
Why don't you answer the question if the other guy wont? What times do you think Rudisha would have recorded and how often, if he had been born the same year as Coe?
Kipketer had 9 attempts on Coe's WR in 1996 and failed every time. Coe had two attempts on the WR in his entire career, and succeeded both times, by extraordinary margins.
Because the conditions of the day in 1980 or so and 2010 are closer than in 1950. From money in the sport to footwear, tracks, pacemaking and more. Not every 30-year chunk is worth the same. That's why you're not seeing athletes run 1:42s like they're nothing in this era.
Part of Coe's greatness was taking it to another level in the 800 in time trials. Then Kipketer combined that with more dominance and going even further down in time. Rudisha went one step further with both Kipketer's dominance but the legendary World Record and Olympic performances that Kipketer lacked.
This excludes Coe's amazing abilities in the 1500/mile, which I do not mean to overlook.
Why don't you answer the question if the other guy wont? What times do you think Rudisha would have recorded and how often, if he had been born the same year as Coe?
Kipketer had 9 attempts on Coe's WR in 1996 and failed every time. Coe had two attempts on the WR in his entire career, and succeeded both times, by extraordinary margins.
Hmm.
You seem to have left out the fact Kipketer did break the WR. Twice.
And why do all of Kipketer's races in 1996 count as WR attempts but none of Coe's races in his career do except the two times he broke the WR?
Why don't you answer the question if the other guy wont? What times do you think Rudisha would have recorded and how often, if he had been born the same year as Coe?
Kipketer had 9 attempts on Coe's WR in 1996 and failed every time. Coe had two attempts on the WR in his entire career, and succeeded both times, by extraordinary margins.
Hmm.
You seem to have left out the fact Kipketer did break the WR. Twice.
And why do all of Kipketer's races in 1996 count as WR attempts but none of Coe's races in his career do except the two times he broke the WR?
I didn't even count all of Kipketer's races in 1996. It's well known Kipketer was trying to break Coe's WR throughout the 96 season. OK, you could count Prague 78, although Coe wasn't 100% in that race, and the race after when he broke the UK record Ovett had set. After 81, Coe suffered illness for 2 years, and when he did return in 84 he was primarily a 1500m runner. He had the WR until Kipketer broke it, btw, so there wasn't so much motivation to break it anyway. Between 79 and 81, when Coe was close to the WR, he had precisely 2 fast paced 800 races, and he ran 1:42.3 and 1:41.7. If he had had 9 or more in either of 79 or 81, he would have ran sub 1:43 every time, and likely ran low 1:41 a couple of times.
Why don't you answer the question if the other guy wont? What times do you think Rudisha would have recorded and how often, if he had been born the same year as Coe?
Kipketer had 9 attempts on Coe's WR in 1996 and failed every time. Coe had two attempts on the WR in his entire career, and succeeded both times, by extraordinary margins.
Hmm.
Everything in the carrer of Sebastian Coe show him as a very suspicious runner who was on something.
In 1979 he has done a jump of 13 seconds in his 1500m PB and in a single attempt.
This added to the facts that his results were not reliable. He is kind of runners that can mix the good and the bad in a single month.
You seem to have left out the fact Kipketer did break the WR. Twice.
And why do all of Kipketer's races in 1996 count as WR attempts but none of Coe's races in his career do except the two times he broke the WR?
I didn't even count all of Kipketer's races in 1996. It's well known Kipketer was trying to break Coe's WR throughout the 96 season. OK, you could count Prague 78, although Coe wasn't 100% in that race, and the race after when he broke the UK record Ovett had set. After 81, Coe suffered illness for 2 years, and when he did return in 84 he was primarily a 1500m runner. He had the WR until Kipketer broke it, btw, so there wasn't so much motivation to break it anyway. Between 79 and 81, when Coe was close to the WR, he had precisely 2 fast paced 800 races, and he ran 1:42.3 and 1:41.7. If he had had 9 or more in either of 79 or 81, he would have ran sub 1:43 every time, and likely ran low 1:41 a couple of times.
Shall we go thru a list of each runner's fastes ten races?
Why don't you answer the question if the other guy wont? What times do you think Rudisha would have recorded and how often, if he had been born the same year as Coe?
Kipketer had 9 attempts on Coe's WR in 1996 and failed every time. Coe had two attempts on the WR in his entire career, and succeeded both times, by extraordinary margins.
I think Rudisha would've run 1:41-low in Coe's era. I don't see why not. Not like the guy needed a pacer or help to run fast. Yes, he'd probably do it less often than he did in his era, but more often than Coe absolutely. Look at Cruz' 1984-85 for instance.
9 attempts lol. According to who? Kipketer running and winning on the circuit vs. the best athletes in the world is now downgraded because he didn't best the record every time. It would be better if he ran against mediocre competition intentionally dodging his biggest rival and aiming for 1:43-1:47s you think? Do you really think he went into every race thinking if I don't set a World Record I fail? Please.
In 1997, he got it in his mind to do it. First he crushed what had been the record indoors. In June, he tied the outdoors record. Then he crushed everyone in a Global Finals 800 (something Coe went 0-fer on). After that he beat the record by a half second twice.
Coe had his whole career to try to attack his World Record, but he never was in that sort of shape again for 800. Which is why Cruz, Ereng, Cram etc. were the guys running super-fast and not him.
It was told you several times already why this is totally misleading.
Absolutely not misleading, no matter how often you gonna say otherwise.
This is a very good indicator of how much better Rudisha was than Coe in the 800m.
No, it’s totally misleading. Rudisha was competing in an era that was 30 years later than Coe! Its like if you put up a list comparing Coe’s 1500m times with Bannister’s 30 years before him! Who would you expect to have the faster average time? D’uh!
When Coe was at his best between 79 and 84, no one else in the world had broken 1:43.4. No need to run a slew of 1:42 or even 1:43 races for him, as 1:44 invariably won him the race.
Rudisha had plenty of guys who were 1:42/1:43 runners, running at a time when there was a much more lucrative circuit, offering regular 49 sec first laps against much more in depth quality. It doesn’t take a genius to work out that such an environment is far more conducive to a greater quantity of fast times.
There are a lot of people posting on here who are totally ignorant of the BAAB system in the late 70’s and early 80’s for UK runners. Unlike now when the likes of Rudisha can run whenever and wherever he pleases on the circuit, UK athletes had to get permission from the BAAB (British Athletics board) to run in events in Europe. They were forced to run a large percentage of their races at home in domestic fixtures in order to gain a permit to run at the big events on the continent. There were also lots of international 2 way and 3 way competitions between different countries, and if an athlete wanted selection they had to run a certain number of these per year. Thus Coe had to run a lot of meets in the UK, and also turned out for his Uni and Club on quite a few occasions early season. One should remember that the UK probably had the most in depth talent in middle distance at this time, so he wouldn’t be racing against nobodies in many of them. But invariably they were slower and more tactical races. It was a completely different time with different expectations.
Coe was actually reprimanded and had to explain himself to the BAAB for running in Oslo in 79 after breaking the 800m WR, because he hadn’t been sanctioned to run there. You guys have no idea how controlling UK Athletics was at the time, and it didn’t really change until the late 80’s. Ironically, the person who was effected the least was Ovett, as his best man and agent, Andy Norman, was the head honcho and was able to get passes for Ovett to miss quite a few events where he was meant to be running for GB. In fact that was the cause of his breakdown with the press in the mid 70’s - he wouldn’t run for GB in a European Cup competition, citing that he wanted to go on holiday with his girlfriend, and was subsequently ripped apart for his unpatriotic stance by the UK press.
Another example of their control was in 82, just prior to the European Champs in Athens, when Coe, after spending most of the summer injured, before putting 3 close races (and victories) together in European permit races to simulate the demands he faced in Athens, was forced by the BAAB to run in a meaningless event at Crystal Palace, with the threat (to all UK athletes, not just him) that anyone who didn’t comply without a valid excuse, would not be going to the Europeans. As a result he took part in a 4 x 800 relay against his will, and run an unnecessarily swift 1:44.0 as the anchor. Anyone who was following the sport in the UK at the time would know this, and the history of Coe’s criticism of the Board for just such demands.
So dismissing him for not running as many fast races as someone running under far less restrictions, in a different context, 30 years later is pretty pathetic. How many athletes competing in 1951 were still in the top 3 all time list in 81, 30 years later?
Absolutely not misleading, no matter how often you gonna say otherwise.
This is a very good indicator of how much better Rudisha was than Coe in the 800m.
No, it’s totally misleading. Rudisha was competing in an era that was 30 years later than Coe! Its like if you put up a list comparing Coe’s 1500m times with Bannister’s 30 years before him! Who would you expect to have the faster average time? D’uh!
When Coe was at his best between 79 and 84, no one else in the world had broken 1:43.4. No need to run a slew of 1:42 or even 1:43 races for him, as 1:44 invariably won him the race.
Rudisha had plenty of guys who were 1:42/1:43 runners, running at a time when there was a much more lucrative circuit, offering regular 49 sec first laps against much more in depth quality. It doesn’t take a genius to work out that such an environment is far more conducive to a greater quantity of fast times.
There are a lot of people posting on here who are totally ignorant of the BAAB system in the late 70’s and early 80’s for UK runners. Unlike now when the likes of Rudisha can run whenever and wherever he pleases on the circuit, UK athletes had to get permission from the BAAB (British Athletics board) to run in events in Europe. They were forced to run a large percentage of their races at home in domestic fixtures in order to gain a permit to run at the big events on the continent. There were also lots of international 2 way and 3 way competitions between different countries, and if an athlete wanted selection they had to run a certain number of these per year. Thus Coe had to run a lot of meets in the UK, and also turned out for his Uni and Club on quite a few occasions early season. One should remember that the UK probably had the most in depth talent in middle distance at this time, so he wouldn’t be racing against nobodies in many of them. But invariably they were slower and more tactical races. It was a completely different time with different expectations.
Coe was actually reprimanded and had to explain himself to the BAAB for running in Oslo in 79 after breaking the 800m WR, because he hadn’t been sanctioned to run there. You guys have no idea how controlling UK Athletics was at the time, and it didn’t really change until the late 80’s. Ironically, the person who was effected the least was Ovett, as his best man and agent, Andy Norman, was the head honcho and was able to get passes for Ovett to miss quite a few events where he was meant to be running for GB. In fact that was the cause of his breakdown with the press in the mid 70’s - he wouldn’t run for GB in a European Cup competition, citing that he wanted to go on holiday with his girlfriend, and was subsequently ripped apart for his unpatriotic stance by the UK press.
Another example of their control was in 82, just prior to the European Champs in Athens, when Coe, after spending most of the summer injured, before putting 3 close races (and victories) together in European permit races to simulate the demands he faced in Athens, was forced by the BAAB to run in a meaningless event at Crystal Palace, with the threat (to all UK athletes, not just him) that anyone who didn’t comply without a valid excuse, would not be going to the Europeans. As a result he took part in a 4 x 800 relay against his will, and run an unnecessarily swift 1:44.0 as the anchor. Anyone who was following the sport in the UK at the time would know this, and the history of Coe’s criticism of the Board for just such demands.
So dismissing him for not running as many fast races as someone running under far less restrictions, in a different context, 30 years later is pretty pathetic. How many athletes competing in 1951 were still in the top 3 all time list in 81, 30 years later?
Deano you are still a Coe fan no matter your user name.
I am not saying that overall Rudisha was not the superior 800m runner to Coe - he may have been, on competitive results - but to try to make that argument on times alone is misplaced when they were competing 3 decades apart. That said, it can be maintained that Coe was better in one significant respect, which is that he reduced the world mark by a far greater margin than Rudisha has. Rudisha's record is only 0.8s faster than Coe's record, which is an incremental improvement in 30 years. In the same period of time - 30 years - before Coe's record the world mark was almost 5 secs slower. Who would seriously try to compare Harbig and Courtenay with Coe? Yet the debate here treats Coe and Rudisha as though they were contemporaries.
Because the conditions of the day in 1980 or so and 2010 are closer than in 1950. From money in the sport to footwear, tracks, pacemaking and more. Not every 30-year chunk is worth the same. That's why you're not seeing athletes run 1:42s like they're nothing in this era.
Part of Coe's greatness was taking it to another level in the 800 in time trials. Then Kipketer combined that with more dominance and going even further down in time. Rudisha went one step further with both Kipketer's dominance but the legendary World Record and Olympic performances that Kipketer lacked.
This excludes Coe's amazing abilities in the 1500/mile, which I do not mean to overlook.
You’ve just shot yourself in the foot. The exact reason why the gap between 1980 and 2010 is so much closer, and the reason you clowns are dismissing Coe is because he was so ahead of his time and was the reason why the 30 year gap seems less big. Compare any other male WR on the track from 1981 with 2011 and I doubt they are so close.
I would say the 0.8 gap between Coe and Rudisha can pretty much be explained by improvements in tracks and shoes in the 30 year period. Anyone claiming there was no difference is deluding themselves. If you get to see a HQ version of Coe’s race in Florence you can see the pot marks in the track at the start of the home straight. Rudisha was running on the latest Mondo track when winning in 2012. Incredible run and one of the reasons why he is the Goat, but take 81 Coe and put him on same track and there would be little between them in terms of all out time.
Kipketer also lost some big races - 2 Olympic finals and 2 Europeans. So if it wasn’t for the fact he was competing when there was World Champs both indoors and out every 2 years in order to get some consolation, his championship record would not be as good as Coe’s, who only had the opportunity of running in 1 world champs, and that was well into his career. If you’re going to compare athletes from different eras then you should really only compare them on a level playing field, and not take into consideration things that were available in one era and not the other. Both Coe and Kipketer were able to compete in 2 Olympics and both took part in European Champs too. World champs should not come into it as they only started in 83 and were then only held every 4 years.
Deano you are still a Coe fan no matter your user name.
The explanation still doesn’t excuse losing in the ‘80 Olympics or dodging Steve Ovett in his prime. Nor having little to show for 1982-83. After 1984, it’d be hard to argue Coe was top dog at 800 with Cruz clearly better and Coe’s struggles with health. There are just more questions about Coe’s supremacy at the 800 from ‘79-‘81 then Rudisha from ‘09-‘12 or Kipketer from ‘94-97 (and ‘99 for that matter). So to me the argument falls flat vs Kipketer and Rudisha in the 800. If you want to broaden to middle distance and bring in Coe’s 1500m abilities, sure that’s a different convo.
You’ve just shot yourself in the foot. The exact reason why the gap between 1980 and 2010 is so much closer, and the reason you clowns are dismissing Coe is because he was so ahead of his time and was the reason why the 30 year gap seems less big. Compare any other male WR on the track from 1981 with 2011 and I doubt they are so close.
I would say the 0.8 gap between Coe and Rudisha can pretty much be explained by improvements in tracks and shoes in the 30 year period. Anyone claiming there was no difference is deluding themselves. If you get to see a HQ version of Coe’s race in Florence you can see the pot marks in the track at the start of the home straight. Rudisha was running on the latest Mondo track when winning in 2012. Incredible run and one of the reasons why he is the Goat, but take 81 Coe and put him on same track and there would be little between them in terms of all out time.
Kipketer also lost some big races - 2 Olympic finals and 2 Europeans. So if it wasn’t for the fact he was competing when there was World Champs both indoors and out every 2 years in order to get some consolation, his championship record would not be as good as Coe’s, who only had the opportunity of running in 1 world champs, and that was well into his career. If you’re going to compare athletes from different eras then you should really only compare them on a level playing field, and not take into consideration things that were available in one era and not the other. Both Coe and Kipketer were able to compete in 2 Olympics and both took part in European Champs too. World champs should not come into it as they only started in 83 and were then only held every 4 years.
otherwise you are comparing apples with oranges.
I addressed this in a post above where I went season by season from 1979-the end of his career for Coe with a season from Kipketer from 1994 on. A couple of seasons were draws, but ultimately Kipketer had the edge from a championship perspective and degree-of-difficulty facing top competition more often. To ignore that Kipketer won 3 straight global titles while Coe went 0 for 2 is silly. It’s no discredit to Kipketer that even in 2004 he was getting a medal when he was no longer at his top level. Coe didn’t make the team in 1988, that’s worse.