What is everyone's problem with the US Army runners being Kenyan?

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- Thanks for not playing the race card.

- WCAP & Morale: for who? I don't see soldier's at the USO crowding around the television set to cheer on a bunch of guys who haven't served a day of their life in the Army's operating forces & enlisted with no intention to do so. I do see significant morale downers for the other non- WCAP Rift Valley American's living on a shoe-string & putting their "real" careers on hold finishing in 4th, 5th, 6th place saying "I'm the real sucker!" I also see "real" non-Rift Valley soldiers w/o the benefit of a 4 year scholarship at a NCAA Division I powerhouse w/low morale because he's been "scalped" out-of-the-market by WCAP opportunist.

- Establishing a WCAP Rift Valley Foreign Legion Is not in the spirit of the program's intent.

Morale. Every single soldier I have spoken to is happy for these fellow soldiers.

Recruiting. The army recruits many people with special skills who don't deploy yet greatly benefit the army. Case in point a friend is a COL. Scientist. Researches and designs best combat gear for protection. Didn't deploy but saved lots of soldiers. In the army we understand everyone has different skills that all contribute. And morale is a skill.

What is your real problem. Did you apply for WCAP and get turned down

Your argument holds no water.

Nothing is preventing other Americans from enlisting and joining the WCAP. They just don't want to. The list of Americans who meet the WCAP standards is short.

Using the 2015 top marks list on USATF:

Men:

1500: 27 athletes

5000: 19 athletes

10000: 8 athletes not already qualified with 5000m times

So not counting the Marathon we're looking at under 50 guys.

Now, are you under 35 (enlisted) or 32 (officer via OCS)?

Any medically disqualifying conditions such as a heart murmur or asthma?

You see where this is going?

The big one: Your initial contract is 8 years. You owe the Army 8 years in some combination of active, reserve, or guard service. Can you be certain that you will maintain those lofty WCAP standards for all 8 years? Probably not. So off you go to your Guard or Reserve unit to complete your contract.

Again: The reason we have Kenyan Americans on the WCAP team is because other qualified Americans don't want to be on the team.

Alan

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LIrunner wrote:

Morale. Every single soldier I have spoken to is happy for these fellow soldiers.

Recruiting. The army recruits many people with special skills who don't deploy yet greatly benefit the army. Case in point a friend is a COL. Scientist. Researches and designs best combat gear for protection. Didn't deploy but saved lots of soldiers. In the army we understand everyone has different skills that all contribute. And morale is a skill.

What is your real problem. Did you apply for WCAP and get turned down

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Colonel:

- Your soldier's & happiness: spare me your confirmation bias, when this story get's out & they're presented the full scam that WCAP's sponsoring then I'll accept your survey.

- Really? .... are you really drawing a comparison of WCAP's Rift Valley Foreign Legion to those of Dr.'s, Scientist, et al that actually do something for the Army & our nation following Advanced Individual Training?

- Thank you for confirming that WCAP deliberately recruits NCAA Kenyans for the express purpose of "Morale" versus soldiering. Wow! Skill-based Morale Soldiers ... now that's the ticket!

- My real problem: Deliberate US Army WCAP hijacking of the US OT at the direct expense of combat readiness.

SFC Alan ...:

- Thanks for confirming tht WCAP's extreme & "lofty" qualification standards are designed to support their current Rift Valley Foreign Legion recruitment model .... please compare these standards to USMA's All-Time top performances & tell me how many folks might qualify from one of our finest funded institutions that's designed to train leaders versus "Morale Specialist":

http://sidearm.sites.s3.amazonaws.com/goarmywestpoint.com/documents/2015/3/6/MensOutdoorTop10.pdf

- QUOTE

Again: The reason we have Kenyan Americans on the WCAP team is because other qualified Americans don't want to be on the team.

ENDQUOTE

Extremely naive in the face of demonstrated facts.

Man so this is what happens when i don't check Letsrun for 2 days

Lickety Split wrote:

SFC Alan ...:

- Thanks for confirming tht WCAP's extreme & "lofty" qualification standards are designed to support their current Rift Valley Foreign Legion recruitment model .... please compare these standards to USMA's All-Time top performances & tell me how many folks might qualify from one of our finest funded institutions that's designed to train leaders versus "Morale Specialist":

http://sidearm.sites.s3.amazonaws.com/goarmywestpoint.com/documents/2015/3/6/MensOutdoorTop10.pdf

- QUOTE

Again: The reason we have Kenyan Americans on the WCAP team is because other qualified Americans don't want to be on the team.

ENDQUOTE

Extremely naive in the face of demonstrated facts.

Thanks for the promotion....but give me about three years....

There is nothing stopping the 30-50+ other Americans who have met these "lofty" qualification standards from enlisting in the Army and joining WCAP. Again, your argument is a sinking ship. There are like 27 Americans under 2:15 in the marathon. There is nothing stopping one of them from enlisting and joining WCAP.

Again, the WCAP isn't a Kenyan only program so your argument holds no water.

Alan

Except, I have been trying to find a reason that Paul Katam was accepted into this elite program when the performances I could locate were good but not exceptional times (3:49 1500 versus 3:39 standard, 13:57 5000 versus 13:33 standard, and 29:10 10000 versus 28:15 standard) (data from TFRRS and UNCG website)

If I am missing some out of body performance that is not documented I cannot find it.

So were other applicants that did not meet the standards discriminated against and rejected?

So was there a back door to the program that was opened in the high recruitment period of the first part of 2014 when 3 members were accepted - both Katam and Chelimo from U of NC and Katam and Kipchirchir from Eldoret - coincidence?

My guess is that those standards are a guideline.

I would almost gaurantee that he WCAP received no other applicants with even a 29:10 PR.

Also when did Paul apply to the program? The standards were softer not long ago.

I bet there are LR lurkers with PRs that meet the WCAP standards, I bet that if either of them contacted WCAP they would not be turned away.

Again which makes more sense:

The WCAP is selectively turning away applicants to create a Kenyan American super team?

Or...

Very few high quality applicants apply to WCAP. Someone became the first Kenyan American applicant and thus the pipeline was laid down, avenues of communication opened, and more applicants contacted.

If I've noticed anything about Kenyans coming to US colleges is that they are very "tribal"....meaning if one brother ends up at a certain school then you can bet his other brothers, sisters and school mates will also end up at that school. It's all about setting up a network of communication.

Alan

How comes Hillary bor is not in WCAP. He is listed to have run 8:27 in steeplechase and he made the finals. The WCAP standard is 8:32. I am not sure if it's guarantee to be in the program or theread is some kind of double standards

pjb wrote:

Lickety Split wrote:

#1 Knock of the "race card" attack ...

That wasn't a "race-card attack".

So talking about white Americans isn't a race-card attack?

RunningTard2004 is a known race baiter and an clueless idiot.

From the WCAP website:

Soldier-athletes who meet the standards below are deemed athletically qualified for entry into the

Army WCAP and will be considered for acceptance in to the program for the 2016 Summer Olympic

Games at Rio de Janeiro, Brazil; the 2018 Winter Olympic Games at Pyeongchang, South Korea; and the

2020 Summer Olympic Games at Tokyo, Japan.

AND:

Must meet or exceed the below listed times within the past 24 months immediately prior to the date of

the Soldier’s WCAP application. Qualifying marks must be made and verifiable in one of the following:

USATF or IAAF sanctioned events that prescribe to or exceed USATF competition rules; events at

collegiate meets that meet or exceed USATF competition rules. All qualifying marks will be verified.

SO I guess MUST only applies if you are non Kenyan

That is a major ethics violation and misuse of taxpayer dollars, IMO

If you set a standard you should have the guts to live by them.

Applicants must sign an agreement to incur 1 additional year of their service obligation for each year serving in the WCAP program. This is in addition to any other service requirements. This additional service obligation will begin either upon release from WCAP or completion of any remaining service requirement, whichever occurs later

so if they sign a 6 year enlistment contract the WCAP years dont count towards those years of enlistment - so will therefore serve the original six years in their line unit after tolling the time period while in WCAP

So if they enlist in 2015 for 6 years - orginal enlisment ends in 2021 (if they are in WCAP from 2016-2017 then enlisment ends in 2023- the Army will therefore get the full benefit of their service).

As for time standards they come from an Army Regulation. The Army follows both laws (which are set by Congress) and regulations. Regulations are not laws and every regulation has a section of where to apply for an exception to such regulation.

long-timer wrote:

pjb wrote:

That wasn't a "race-card attack".

So talking about white Americans isn't a race-card attack?

No.

Soldier responsibility. All Soldiers assigned to WCAP will receive and sign a memorandum outlining requirements to maintain their military careers while assigned to the program. National rankings and international competition will not interfere with normal military progression. All WCAP personnel are Soldiers first.

Per diem and expenses while at the training site and return travel to original airport of departure (meaning their original unit) are

paid by the host installation’s IMCOM Region single MWR fund from NAFs made available by FMWRC.

NAFs are non-appropriated dollars - meaning not tax payer dollars (money that comes from MWR activities on post such as Post Exchnage - a store like a Walmart, bowling alley etc).

Recap - Soldiers first, time in WCAP doesnt count towards their enlistment contract so they will serve their full enlistment contract in a line unit and tax payers dont fund this program.

The WCAP needs to have a conditional program as they once did. I ran 2:19:35 taking 4th at the California International Marathon back in 07. I didn\'t have the pedigree or raw talent like the Kenyan born athletes they brought on board, not even remotely close. I was in reguar support unit, left WCAP in 2010 , have deployed twice and have been on active duty for 15 years ( less than 2 of that was at WCAP).

What we did have then was American-born Soldiers who worked extremely hard to to run well at WCAP and we didn\'t always make that happen. I failed several times before breaking 2:20:00. CPT Kenny Foster came in with a 2:29 PR, left with a 2:19:49 PB. SSG Troy Harrison came in with a 2:28, left with a 2:22 PR. This may not be respectable to the LRC which, often times, focus only on the truly elite but for Soldiers such as myself and the others mentioned, who came from regular line units and had already deployed prior to arriving, we did the best we could with the enormous opportunity that we had. I took the motto to heart, left WCAP and went straight to a BCT at Fort Campbell deplying for the second time to Afghanistan shortly after.

I am happy for the Soldiers that made the team but the motto at WCAP is \'Soldiers First\'. I agree with past posters that the Army is comprised of a vast array of talented Soldiers, all with different missions. Do I think you should hide out at WCAP and never have any real interest in serving in other roles aside from being an Athlete? Absolutely not.

I respect 1LT Robert Cheseret the most out of all of them. He, like me, chose to go to OCS after first being an enlisted man, spent over a year working as an Armor Platoon Leader upon finishing OCS and follow on Officer leadership schools.

I wish the best for WCAP but also feel there are many promising Soldier-athletes with the potential to move up. Granted, the unit wants Soldiers who are actually going to medal, win world titles, not just Soldiers who can just break a 2:20 marathon. It simply isn\'t fast enough although only a small % of WCAP runners have run under that time. The standard when I was there was 2:22:00 (2008 USATF Olympic Trials \"B\" standard). Now, 2:15:00 or better and that is just to get a sniff from the unit.

My commander while I was there (also an infantry officer and ranger) said it best, \'It is difficult to get accepted into WCAP, it is even more difficult to remain in). They watch every performance and, of course, it must be that way.

CPT Nathan Pennington

The current program does nor seem like it is maintaining the high level of participation that you claim exists - Katam's times are no where near the standards now or when he was accepted.

He originally stated he was applying to the "Military Accessions Vital to the National Interests Program" which is designed to recruit special skills personnel. Left college early since he felt he needs a graduate degree in his chosen field and the Army would pay for it.

So now he gets to run full time, get paid as an SPC, run in races like Rock and Roll, and still no where near the standards after being enrolled over 2 years ago.

Does not seem very hard to stay in and my feeling is it is time the US Army takes advantage of the special skills he applied under - running was not a qualification for the program he and Army Officers took advantage of.

Hillary Bor is listed as part of the team on Coach Scott Simmons' American Distance Project website.

Team list:

http://www.americandistanceproject.com/#

!team/cee5

Coach Simmons' stat list of runners he's coached:

http://www.americandistanceproject.com/#

!staff/c18d5

- Pushing my findings to the following on Friday .... the day before the 5K ... the one where Eric Jenkins most likely comes in 4th to Chelimo:

Department of Defense Inspector General

Ken Goe, The Oregonian

Mike Sandrock, Boulder Daily Camera

TBD, Stars & Stripes

Tim Layden, Sports Illustrated

- Taking names for the Mailing List