I've heard he has one long aerobic run somewhere around 30 minutes per week. They definitely do speed work at A&M. The whole philosophy is to find aerobic 400 types who have done "strength" their whole life and then teach them to run fast.
This guy is perfect for their system.
And he definitely doesn't do cross. Their 800 runners don't run cross.
Guys, don't get too drawn in by Ventolin.
He thinks everyone (except Coe) can run 1:41 high.
ventolin himself
given correct pacing and drafting to the bell
could run
~1'41-high!!
AR is 1:42.60
http://www.usatf.org/halloffame/TF/showBio.asp?HOFIDs=233
A lot of 800m guys do speed work year round and then add in the speed endurance later in the season. He aint running 1:14.9 on 60-90sec fartleks, that's for sure.
That said, I agree that this kid can run 1:41 -1:42
JR
duck 1980s wrote:His coach said he's doing 20 miles a week[quote]
nothing training
[quote]and training with a 44. 400m man
drivel
his semi-coach ran 44.5? decades ago
i remember, because i saw his best runs on satellite
to have an ancient-carib 44.5er coaching best US 800 talent since Ryun is laughable
he needs gradual mileage to get to peak
If you don't think he's at least doing 50 second pace on some of his intervals you're a fool
clueless
he is doing those of his mileage
whatever speed he is showing is genetic, off 6'1 with superb intrinsic speed not some speed training
Vent. your statements reveal a sophomoric understanding of 800m running
clueless
you have no clue about intrinsic speed/talent with current mileage which is low, perhaps very low
he is in current 1'42-high shape of basically just his intrinsic speed
the speed has not even been worked on !!!
There are two approaches to training for the 800m. 400m/800m or 800m/1500m
drivel
there is a 3rd approach :
it is called
"pure 800 training"
example : 1'40.91WR
Clearly, this kid is doing 400m/800m type training including the gym work
no
he looks like he is currently doing 600 training
it woud be embarrassing to aggrandize that to 800
Take a look at what Rudisha did during his winter build up for the London Olympics
i followed it closely
he did lotta endurance then built in speed increasingly
He spent it in Oz working on his 400m
drivel
he has said he never likes running a 400 mid-season as that was too fast a rhythm & may disrupt his 800
the opening 400s in oz were off pure-endurance work
in london, he was likely in,
44-mid/high
Metric Miler wrote:
Guys, don't get too drawn in by Ventolin.
He thinks everyone (except Coe) can run 1:41 high.
ventolin himself
given correct pacing and drafting to the bell
could run
~1'41-high!!
ventolin^3 wrote:
clueless
you have no clue about intrinsic speed/talent with current mileage which is low, perhaps very low
he is in current 1'42-high shape of basically just his intrinsic speed
Good guess
His training partner is a 44. 400m guy. You can't read.
crete wrote:ventolin, you are misinterpreting the coach here
no
he has 2 coaches
i saw lotta francique's runs on satellite
that boy is no 800 coach despite telling Don to go out in 51+ !!!
francique coud never put together a proper outdoor 400 in a major meet
his main talent was to push a fast 200 indoors & hold onto last lap making sure no one coud edge past with some wide arm cadence & drifting in lane-1
he doubled that "incredible" strategy for Don
He says they haven't done too much 800 specific work yet
it looks like all he has done is some 600 work
mileage for a good 600, no speedwork
he still seems to be in 1'42-high outdoor shape off it
That doesn't mean they haven't worked on pure speed
not my interpretation
"~ no trackwork = no speedwork"
This is normal for the season plan of an 800 runner
nonsense
what speed does he need in january ?
They do pure speed and endurance in base phase and work towards specific 800 endurance later on in the season
nonsense
he woud do mostly gentle mileage as speed is already built-in
up the mileage next few months
there may not be any need to do any serious speedwork at all
he already has whiplash speed
There's a good ppt presentation on the web from Vig or some other coach on the season plan for 800 training
i'm sure they coached lotta 18y ole 1'45i solo
you don't "plan" a regime for this ultimate-level
you just push gently on the mileage until something "squeaks", then re-evaluate
You could probably also just glean this from the sub 1:50 thread
eh ?
this is quantum leap better
where is 1'45i thread training ?
None of this is revolutionary
no
it is
this is normal 800 training
nonsense
this is unique training territory
1st time in living history there has been a 18y ole solo-effort American 1'45+i
this is uncharted territory
Do not come to Olympics.....you will lose.
JRinaldi wrote:
A lot of 800m guys do speed work year round and then add in the speed endurance later in the season. He aint running 1:14.9 on 60-90sec fartleks, that's for sure.
JR
You think that would be obvious, right?
I think the problem is definitional. I think vento thinks speed work means 800 specific endurance workouts which feature later in the season.
Speed work, to an 800 guy (and certainly to a 400/800 guy) actually means working on pure sprinting speed and is done early in the season. Flying 40s with full recovery, weights, plyos, drills, hills.
If he is running 20mi/week does Vent think he's just jogging 3 miles a day with no other form of training and busting out a 1:14 600 and a 1:45 800? Nuts.
Ventolin^3, not sure if you have read this yet but this provides more information on Donovan's Brazier's background in terms of racing and training, especially his high school background. He previously ran 40mpw?
The kid has very good endurance for someone his age. In your analysis, would he benefit from increasing his mileage to "put more money in the bank?" At what point would there be diminishing returns on more mileage vs. reduction in speed/performance?
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/01/145-93-opener-just-tip-iceberg-800-phenom-donavan-brazier/
"Brazier, a native of Grand Rapids, Mich., chose Texas A&M in part because he would not have to run cross country and could use the fall to focus purely on the 800. Many mid-distance runners who skip cross country do so because they lack the endurance to compete over 8,000-meter races. But Brazier felt cross country was holding him back. He has outstanding natural endurance, running 15:25 over 5k for 6th at the Michigan Division 1 Lower Peninsula State Meet in 2014 and busting out a 4:07 1600 last spring despite running a modest 40 miles per week in high school. That endurance is also what allowed him to negative split that 1:48.
Despite getting down to 1:47.55 in June (making him the fourth-fastest U.S. high schooler of all-time), Brazier still felt he had “untapped potential†upon arriving in College Station, and a few months of working with Francique (himself a 44.47 man at 400) have brought that potential out. Francique has taken a speed-oriented approach with Brazier, dropping his weekly mileage into the 20s (Brazier will do some 25- to 30-minute runs to boost his aerobic base but nothing much longer than that). So far, Brazier’s main workouts have consisted of fartleks of 60- and 90-second intervals on the grass near the Aggies’ outdoor track. He trains with the team’s 800 group, including the Hernandez brothers, Efrain (1:50.26 pb) and Hector (1:47.73 pb)."
Being native to Michigan, I have the pleasure of seeing this kid run (along with Grant Fisher, sub 4 miler as a senior in high school last year). He is the real deal and I believe he will be capable of going after, if not breaking, the 800m AR.
Check out this race, crazy way to PR in the 800m! (roughly 54.57, then 53.82)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RvyMuHYKts
Also, another great read about Mr. Brazier. In fact, I would highly recommend reading this!!!
"On May 2 at Cedar Springs, the Texas A&M recruit ran 4:07.15 for 1600 and came back with a 1:51.58. No prep runner in Michigan history has ever run a better one-day double."
My biggest concern is that the drastic reduction in mileage has produced an early peak that will fizzle out in the months or years to come. Time will tell.
Pangolin wrote:
My biggest concern is that the drastic reduction in mileage has produced an early peak that will fizzle out in the months or years to come. Time will tell.
That is a concern I have as well.
ventolin^3 wrote:
marlon harewood wrote:Beyond that and we're on shaky ground; Johnny Gray is #16 all time for goodness sakewhat on earth does gray's position on a list or merits or age at the time have to do with this kid ?
are they conjoined in some way or some law of the universe saying he can't "be number 15 this year" ??
...
800m all-time list is nonsense & there are some seriously under-valued runs in it, starting with top-2 all-timers
800m all-time list is not nonsense. It's what people have actually run, in the real world. There are many things that need to fall into place if Brazier is to actually take 3/4 seconds off 1:45.93 and turn apparent potential into world class achievement. The fact that only fifteen people have ever run faster than Gray incontrovertibly shows that it is exceedingly rare for athletes to emerge who actually run faster than him.
Real world facts ventolin. You can't obfuscate and analyse and calculate your way through them. Every once in a while on here we used to be treated to malmo bluntly informing people that effective training and racing performances aren't about playing with numerology. I have a feeling that you'll never get this though. (And yes, I know that you've watched every top class distance race since 1921 thanks to your great big satellite dish and so apparently have a superhuman intuitive understanding of the sport, but that doesn't negate my point.)
Brazier's performances are exciting and his running action is majestic but it's complete nonsense to assume that world beating performances are now a fait accompli.
(This said, I hope he turns out to be the second coming of Wilson Kipketer not the new David Sharpe.)
Texas A&M rigged the whole performance just to troll Letsrun and specifically ventolin. Now that they have their "*1:41-high*" quote, they can have a guffaw and go back to reality.
Brazier won't break 1:47 the rest of the year and the troll will be complete.
One virtue of the 800m is that you can race it hard frequently, unlike, say, the 10000m, so if Kipketer, for example, could run 1:41.24 off of 23/48.3, then why didn't he go after that 1:40 subsequently? It doesn't matter what the meet is, only whether the distance and time are measured correctly. All the hand timers got in the vicinity of 1:41.6-7 for Seb Coe's 800m at Firenze. And ultimately, you don't get to brag about having stupidly run extra or gone out too fast and run something that would convert to a lot faster. So, guys like Souleiman and Kiprop are going to have to go after the clock in the 800m if they want anyone to think they are 1:41 guys. As for Brazier, you can't watch him run without thinking a bit about Rudisha (then again, I probably said this about Charles Jock a few years ago as well). Who knows whether Francique and Henry are the guys to bring out his potential? But we simply have not seen an American 800m talent like this as a junior since Jim Ryun.
American middle distance kiss of death Jim Ryun comparison.
Is there anyone more cursed than the American miler, from Ryun, to Scott, to Falcon, to Holman, to Cruminkaer, to Centro?
The only American miler to live up to and exceed potential has been Manzano.
I'd say Spivey (mile) and Symmonds (800) petty much performed to their talent level as well and disagree about Centro. Not every top runner is a Snell or an El G. Even Kiprop, and Rudisha for that matter, has had his ups and downs.No "curse", just a tough road.
Turkey club wrote:
American middle distance kiss of death Jim Ryun comparison.
Is there anyone more cursed than the American miler, from Ryun, to Scott, to Falcon, to Holman, to Cruminkaer, to Centro?
The only American miler to live up to and exceed potential has been Manzano.
Spivey is another exaxple of the cursed American miler. Failed to qualify for the Olympics at his peek. Ran his lifetime best at 1500m that same season.
Symmonds is not a miler.
Centro was forth at the Olympics after meddling twice at worlds. Cursed.
Webb also personifies the curse of the American miler.
marlon harewood wrote:800m all-time list is not nonsense
actually
it is
i've seen all < 1'42s & most of the < 1'43s live on tv/satellite on same day or some highlights next available broadcast few days later
the 800 has has some appalling performances on all-time list
It's what people have actually run, in the real world
very interesting
now tell us what a 1'41.2 run off 23.0 / 48.3 couda been off 24-low/49-low ?
or what a 1'40.91 couda been if no pesky rounds, no 23,4 opener, but fully rested with a pacer smoothly drafting for 24-low / 49-low ?
There are many things that need to fall into place if Brazier is to actually take 3/4 seconds off 1:45.93 and turn apparent potential into world class achievement
see above
in a "perfect", smoothly-paced-to-bell 800 outdoors, imo he is in ~ 1'42.8 / 1'42.9 shape now
that is what benefit of seeing lotta races over last 40+y offers
The fact that only fifteen people have ever run faster than Gray incontrovertibly shows that it is exceedingly rare for athletes to emerge who actually run faster than him
learn to read
go ask johnny what shape he was in zurich-'88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAcpMcUR-1Mif he says ~ 1'41-high if he'd been smoothly paced to bell, he is not lying but making a very genuine claim
he had good shot of 800WR that day
he was without doubt top-3 all-time synthetic track 800 guy at the time & probably still in top-10 upto today if others had run their best
to think he is only "worth" number 16 today all-time on that zurich run is laughable !
if all you think is that he was worth 1'42.5 at his best, then you have no clue about 800
Real world facts ventolin
if "real world" is your only crutch, then stick to looking at all-time list & don't bother posting here as intrinsic merit is beyond you
You can't obfuscate and analyse and calculate your way through them
eh ?
what is this nonsense
can't you see when someone is offered crap pace &/or drafting which wrecks their clocking ?
Every once in a while on here we used to be treated to malmo bluntly informing people that effective training and racing performances aren't about playing with numerology
he is seldom wrong but even he probably thinks he was worth lot quicker than his PBs if given ideal paced raced to 2k in a 3k SC, in ideal conditions, etc
i certainly do
I have a feeling that you'll never get this though
eh ?
can't you comprehend basic concept of :
fully rested run in 0 wind at temperate F, smoothly paced to cut-off point, be it : bell for 800 or 1500, 2k for a 3k, 3k for a 5k ?
And yes, I know that you've watched every top class distance race since 1921 thanks to your great big satellite dish
lot since '85
most every golden/diamond league
it is good experience
and so apparently have a superhuman intuitive understanding of the sport, but that doesn't negate my point
no
that requires some super-imposed good intelligence tacked onto that viewing
i have adequate enough in that department
Brazier's performances are exciting and his running action is majestic but it's complete nonsense to assume that world beating performances are now a fait accompli
nonsense
you clearly are incapable of analysis
his solo-1'45.9i in that manner with too quick opening 200/varying next 3 splits, is worth an ~ 1'42.8 / 1'42.9 outdoors in a perfect race, smoothly paced to bell
if you don't think ~ 1'42.8 / 1'42.9 is not a world beating performance, then you have no clue about 800
(This said, I hope he turns out to be the second coming of Wilson Kipketer not the new David Sharpe)
david who ?