The Canadian Running Thread

It's like a game following Skuj on this thread.

He has so much to say, but refuses to acknowledge, let alone actually answer, not one but two simple questions put to him repeatedly.

If this is the kind of voice advocating for long distance running in this country, we're in trouble.

Skuj, here's a third question for you to ignore: WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS YOU PERCEIVE?

Pete wrote:

Skuj wrote:BTW, there is a small network off-line from TnF who have an absolute field day with the You vs Oldster Show - and no, we don't see you as the triumphant one.

At least I gave you and your buddies something to talk about, I suppose. I am fully aware I've been an asshole in that exchange. Enjoying it, too, to be honest. Guilty pleasure. That, and junk food. You can point me out to your friends when I move out your way this summer so they can shun me if you like.

Aaaaw Man, now I feel bad, hahaha.....I didn't want to be mean. It's just that it gets tiring reading you going after Steve for chickenshit things. Yer a great guy Pete, and a hell of a runner.....would be great to meet.

Um, yeah wrote:

Your words then don't amount to a hill of beans.

You and I continue to misunderstand each other, or speak different languages.....and with quotes like that I really AM going to just ignore you now.

prairie kid wrote:

It's like a game following Skuj on this thread.

He has so much to say, but refuses to acknowledge, let alone actually answer, not one but two simple questions put to him repeatedly.

If this is the kind of voice advocating for long distance running in this country, we're in trouble.

Skuj, here's a third question for you to ignore: WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS YOU PERCEIVE?

I keep giving my answers, and you guys keep saying I'm not answering. You kill me!!!

Prairie kid, in addition to being a registered athlete with BCA for over 25yrs, I've coached with a youth track club for nearly 20yrs, and coached a road runner club for nearly 15 years. I have done my part in the "development" of people in distances over 1500m, something that AC is not very supportive of lately.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS YOU PERCEIVE? (Or is it all rosy for you?)

On a personal note, I was the luckiest 31min 10k runner in the world: I went to 11 World Military XC Champs. (We actually got paid when we were there. Oh how good we had it, compared to our 29min counterparts in the civilian world.)

Our teams usually didn't do so well....near the back of the pack a lot of times, but sometimes, near the middle of the pack. I guess we should have just given up though, because we weren't owning the podium.

The dream of making a team drove many many people within the CF. I saw first hand what this opportunity did/created.

I gotta go hahaha.....I was going somewhere with his.....maybe much later.

Please explain to me how not putting big money into events where the podium is dominated by East Africans, instead putting into events where we are near or on the podium (hurdles, 800m, shot put, etc.) is not doing EXACTLY what the AC claims in that statement.

Long distance runnings isn't a "go" in our country. This has nothing to do with AC, it has to do with a lack of talent compared to other countries. So I'm thinking this may not be effective.

I don't see how this applies to distance running. Why should we fund athletes to go to World Juniors or World XC to get their asses kicked? I do not see how this is beneficial to development. AC does do a pretty damn good job of funding development teams anyways, this is a pretty unfair criticism.

Again, this applies to distance running how? I think the average person is going to want to hear how we are or need to be doing in events that last less than 2 minutes...

Why is this AC's responsibility?

How do you know AC isn't doing this? As far as I can tell, you're a wannabe coach in the middle of nowhere. I don't think AC really keeping you in the loop.

Btw i was talking to you. You are a douchebag.

These are beautiful sentiments. Let me guess: if you were a politician, you'd be in favour of world peace, brotherly love, and ending world hunger, right? Brilliant! If only the jerks in charge had similar goals...

Consider the example of teaming with "funding partners" with long-term vision. What a nice idea. Now, cynics might say that's exactly what AC has seeking for years -- but maybe you're right, maybe that idea just never occurred to them. Presumably you have some concrete ideas about how to convince these funding partners to sign on for a major long-term national deal (i.e. not some anecdote about a local runner who convinced the neighbourhood pizza parlour to donate $500 of travel money and six free pizzas in exchange for wearing a "Frankie's Pizza Heaven" singlet).

Oh wait, I guess I'm starting to look at things through a straw. That's not your department, is it? Okay, back the big-picture quest for world peace...

Pretyy sure there is at least 1 ac guy here ripping skuja, maybe wg himself; i know his style.

what did ag say about that statement? thats what i thought.

if you guys are not even the least bit worried about that and the document that clarifies which events are 'key' in ac thinking, along with the abandonment of world xc at the snr level this year for the first time, if these are not signals to you that the body that claims to run the sport of ld has not essentially abandoned it, then lets talk about my toyota that ia have for sale instead, its a great del really.

yea, i'm not working for AC buddy. Generally people who work for organizations like that don't post on petty message board threads. I am however a Canadian Junior distance runner.

canadianner wrote:

the body that claims to run the sport of ld has not essentially abandoned it,

Then please explain how this week's announcement of national championships for the next several years for cross-country, 10km, half-marathon and full marathon where competitive opportunities are being provided in Canada in conjunction with private funding partners and including the provision of extensive Canadian championship prize money is the equivalent of having "essentially abandoned it".

Or do you really think that a single quote without the larger interview context in which it was given really trump these real, concrete actions?

Not at all biased, are we?

Skuj wrote:

I keep giving my answers, and you guys keep saying I'm not answering. You kill me!!!

You keep giving your answers? Really? Must have missed where you conceded that USATF has been able to 'support' US long distance running without extensive carding equivalent money to athletes like Solinsky. Presumably if he hadn't been getting all those US tax dollars in monthly funds, he would have quit the sport when just a 13:30 5km guy.

Or maybe I missed it where you also conceded that Athletics Canada will still put forth names for 66 senior level cards for able bodied athletes, obtaining over $1.1 million for Canadian track and field athletes from Sport Canada.

But maybe I also missed it when you explained in coherent detail how having several National Championships where distance runners can win thousands of dollars but only a single National Championship with no prize money for sprinters and throwers means AC has thrown in the towel on distance running in favour of being a "sprinting and throwing country".

Please, enlighten all us ignorant fools.

It's obv that um yeah and pre32 are the same pers.

So you guys(guy) argue that the awarding of natchamps of various distances = support of long distance on a big stage? Dont make me puke! Since when did these things NOt get awarded.

I'll paste a complete article on new carding, and also I am in agreement that A.C. pers are posting here, say what you want. Nothing wrong with that its a free world, but at least state your alegiance (spelling?) Skuj dont take that shit from these people.

Starting this year it is going to be more difficult for Canada's track and field athletes to receive funding from the country's Athlete Assistance Program thanks to some tougher standards set by Athletics Canada, the sport's governing body.

In some cases, athletes will now have to achieve performances that are superior to Olympic qualifying standards, which have caused controversy amongst athletes and coaches across the country.

Athletics Canada, which administers Sport Canada's funding, makes no apologies for this and has set a target of three medals at the 2012 Olympics in London.

"I wouldn't say we made it tougher, necessarily, it's more realistic about what it takes to do well internationally," said Scott McDonald, Athletics Canada's Director of National Team Programs. "And I think that is really what Own The Podium is doing.

"Our carding plan was not in line with what we were trying to do in terms of high performance. Without moving towards that alignment we risked losing a lot of carding from Sport Canada. We would have had to cut about half the number of athletes we were able to support."

The CEO of Own The Podium, Alex Baumann, commends the new program as a step in the right direction.

"It's not easy, particularly with a sport like athletics, which has so many disciplines," Baumann said. "But the challenge for us is, we can't resource all those disciplines. We have to take a look at where our best medal chances are.

"I agree you don't have as big a depth of field in some sports as in athletics or swimming."

Distance programs may take biggest hit

Though he is in agreement with Own the Podium's philosophy, Dave Scott-Thomas, a 16-time CIS coach of the year at the University of Guelph, doesn't like the way Athletics Canada is going about it.

"What if we don't hit our target of three medals in 2012? What is going to happen to those people who made these policy changes?" he asked. "And what if one of the non-carded athletes does it, one for whom making the Olympics Games is easier than getting carded? Is Own The Podium going to come in and take credit for it?

The new program seeks to identify young athletes who are on "the pathway" to becoming top 16 in the world. World-class athletes will still receive senior cards worth $1,500 per month, but now high-school athletes may earn a developmental card worth $900 a month.

Critics say the program overlooks the many college graduates who fall between the ends of the spectrum.

"In this initial wave of carding I think we are going to lose some athletes in that age group coming out of university," said Kevin Sullivan, Canadian 1,500-metre record holder and a three-time Olympian. "The idea is to capture athletes who are on the pathway to the top 8, top 16 positions. "

Like most athletes and coaches contacted by CBCSports.ca, Sullivan is in favour of the pursuit of world-class performances but suggests there are flaws in this program. The 36-year-old also sits on Athletics Canada's Board of Directors and has heard the complaints from fellow athletes.

Among the most vocal has been Eric Gillis, a 2008 Olympian at 10,000m who became the No. 1 marathoner in Canada when he ran 2:13:52 in Houston this January.

"The U.S. is having success in the 5,000m, 10,000m, marathon and the steeple [chase]," said Gillis, a native of Antigonish, N.S., who competes with the Speed River Track Club in Guelph. "If the U.S. can do it there's no reason why Canada can't. But we need to have university runners stick with the sport and develop into their mid- to late-20s and run well after university."

McDonald says Athletics Canada undertook an extensive number crunching exercise looking at what performances were necessary to reach the top 16 in every event at the past three Olympics. They then studied each of those athletes' progression on a yearly basis. From this data, a set of standards was established.

But their research fails to take into account the fact that in the distance running events, Canadians, in particular, develop later than athletes from East Africa. Every world junior men's record from 800m up is held by an East African and in every case is vastly superior to the Canadian senior records.

New training centre approach on horizon

In addition to increasing the performance standards, Athletics Canada is moving towards a National Training Centre (NTC) system like in the United Kingdom. Athletes at these centres may hold an advantage when it comes time to carve up Sport Canada's carding money. Gregory Portnoy, personal coach to Canadian long and triple jump record holder, Tabia Charles, believes this is unfair.

"This system almost eliminates the personal coach," Portnoy said. "The personal coach is key in track and field. Most successful administrations in countries around the world go through the personal coach. The national federation is incapable of developing athletes by itself, and therefore it should work together with the personal coaches."

Scott Saunders, personal coach to national team members Tyler Christopher, Carline Muir and Krysha Bayley likes the move towards national training centres, but sees it as premature. His group works out of the University of Alberta.

"It worked really well for speed skating during the Winter Olympics. But are the NTCs completed?" he asked. "I know quite a lot of athletes on the national team and there is just no desire to move to a national training centre right now. But it's something they will have to give some thought to. If you are at a centre, you have a better shot at getting carded."

The Speed River Track Club is widely considered the most talented group of distance runners in the country with roughly 100 members of all ages.

Along with Gillis, the club sent 1,500m runner Taylor Milne to the Beijing Olympics. The club's success has attracted several post-collegiate athletes to Guelph. One of these is Rob Watson, the 2008 and 2009 Canadian 3,000m steeplechase champion who made his international debut at the 2009 IAAF World Championships in Berlin.

Last year, the Colorado State University graduate lowered his personal best time to 8:27.09. His performances earned him $900 a month of carding for the first time which allowed him to eat better, reduce the number of hours he works, and, more importantly, worry less about paying rent.

He doubts he'll get that money within the new system.

"They are pretty much giving up on distances over 1,500m," Watson said. "I am 26 and knowing I must run 8:19 this year to be carded, which is four seconds faster than the Olympic 'A' qualifying standard, is to me insulting and disappointing."

That is an absolutely brilliant post, and I agree with almost everything said (and unsaid, if you think that even people within the AC "tent" are just going along with the OTP crap, even though they know it is wrong).

This is the WRONG WAY for Canadian distance running --- it is so obvious to anyone who knows...

It's not obvious to me. Just like I'm sure it ain't obvious to pre32.

Why is it that anyone who disagrees with your biased position must by default be different handles of the same person? Given your lack of argument (simply reposting an article without attribution) I'd say you are another handle as several others of the skuj/rsb vein. See? Anyone can play that silly game.

When were those things NOT awarded? How about the half-marathon championships, that didn't exist until AFTER a certain coach was removed from his National Endurance position in the late 90s? And hey, that's yet another international team that Canadian distance runners are being sent on.

If you'll actually read the thread, you'll see that there are numerous statements about AC "throwing in the towel" or "raising the white flag". Does that really jive with having several distance championships that have had increasing amounts of prize money (due largely in part to long term partnering with private enterprise - hey! there's a novel idea!) when throwers and sprinters have a single, non-prize money championships?

Might want to swallow your puke on that complaint.

Since I'm sure you actually READ the carding criteria, can you please cite the exact lines where it says that AC will NOT nominate the full equivalent of 66 senior cards for able bodied athletes, obtaining over $1.1 million for Canada's track and field athletes?

News flash - there are more cards and more carding money going out now than there were 10 years ago. Doesn't take a bitter disgraced national coach to be able to see that, although it gets pointedly ignored because it doesn't fit ones preconceived agenda.

"Own the Podium" was, by all accounts, quite successful for the winter Games. Many of us, including Skuj, were rightfully proud of Canada's successes. Why not, then, the same approach for the summer Games? Is it about winning medals in our best events, or having mediocre athletes representing us across the board?

There are limited funds available for athlete support (i.e. carding, training centres, etc.). It makes sense that AC is trying to maximize the effect of these monies by steering them to the areas where they are more likely to produce medal performances. It is, I dare say, what the vast majority of Canadians would want. Given the choice of (1) our sprinter won a silver, or (2) our 10K guy cracked the top 20, which would you prefer?

There is certainly an unnecessary amount of condescension in one of those posts, but it was not Pete's.

Once again the "Skuj dance" is on display and thoughtful questions go unanswered. I've become more and more convinced that the guy's got nothing.

If that "bitter", "disgraced" former National Coach is supposed to be me, you are 100 % wrong. I am neither bitter nor disgraced. More like passionate lover of the sport of distance running, and extremely experienced and knowledgeable in that area, and able to offer realistic and honest assessments of programs and their shortfalls, and perhaps offer better solutions. So if you want to define myself and my motivations ACCURATELY, that would be the way to do so...

I think there were actually more cards in the 80's and 90's than today, but carding money comes from Sport Canada, and it isn't always reflective of AC's priorities.

As for the hosting of all those Distance Running Championships, I suspect they are a cash cow for Athletics Canada. Think about it ---- by far the largest numbers of participants in various National Championships are distance runners, whether on the road, the track, or cross-country. So they all pay their membership fees and their entry fees, etc.

And then at the end of the day, Athletics Canada says we will not support a High Performance Centre for athletes that run longer than 1500 metres. They also say "We are a sprinting and throwing Country".

As for the Own the Podium Success, what really worked is that we got a lot of medals (most) in Sports that are almost brand new in the Olympics, and that only a very few athletes and countries compete in. So we owned the Podium. Wow! What a model to follow!

Just find sports with the least possible amount of competition, and pour all our money into them, and then we can Own the Podium forever...

And the Distance Runners can just go and f**k themselves...

rsb wrote:

As for the Own the Podium Success, what really worked is that we got a lot of medals (most) in Sports that are almost brand new in the Olympics, and that only a very few athletes and countries compete in. So we owned the Podium. Wow! What a model to follow!

Canada did well at the Winter Olys because those games involve winter sports and Canada is a winter sport nation. Duh!

Canada sucks at distance running because training for distance running is not conducive to winter. Duh!