Some more information about kenyan athletes

The doping protocol(s) the E. Africans get away with would probably be quite an interesting read.

Really, the level of 2 and 4 mmol is a CONVENTIONAL level, but in many cases there are big differences. For example, when we push a strong athlete of 10000m to a MAX LASS of 8/9 mmol for 15-17 min, if he is well trained can run HM about 6 mmol. The difference depends on the characteristics of athletes : runners with more Fast Fibres with Oxydative attitudes can reach a higher level of lactate, as their engine works like a "turbo", using again a good percentage of the producted lactate as energy. Fibres of these athletes are able to use the best attitudes of Fatty Acids, developing the "Aerobic Lipidic Power". So, they are able to run till 3 mmol about, using essentially Fatty Acids preserving glycogen.

Paul Tergat (but also Paula Radcliffe, Jaouad Gharib, and many of the best runners) are of this type. They cannot run many marathons in one season, as their engine is able to develop more power, but the capacity of searching fuel eating their muscles (so, they are "self-cannibals"), if allows top results, is also damageous for thir body and structure.

Instead, there are other athletes rich of Slow Fibres, than can use in most part Fatty Acids, running at lower level of lactate, that can run many marathons in one year, without any danger, because never are able to run using fuel from their own muscles.

Regarding Da Costa, his 2 halfs were 64:42 + 61:23. If we suppose that he could have a value in HM of 60:20/60:30 (pace of 2:55 p/km), running the first Half at 3:04 pace he used the 94/95% of his AnT, of sure 2 mmol. But in this case, he preserved completely the tank of glycogen, and in his 2nd Half was able running about 98/99% of AnT, having yet his tank full of glycogen. Of course, at the end of the marathon his lactate could be 3.5 or 4 mmol, but it happened because of his distribution. If Ronaldo had run the first half in 61:23, he had used the 90% of his glycogen soon, not being able to use the best Fatty Acids when already without glycogen in his fibres, and could not run better than 2:09/2:10 the full race.

One of the reasons of the improvement of top perfprmances in marathon today, is the new system of running, using negative split. This system allows to preserve your glycogen, giving the opportunity of running the second half (if well prepared) very close your PB in HM. Practically, first Half of fast warm-up, second Half of competition.

About the idea of drug for Africans, is a so stupid fancy that doesn't deserve any reply. It's possible to explain very well every improvement knowing physiology, methodology, training and having the taste of investigating human possibilities, instead to close himself without trying to understand what is possible to do. Mother of morons always is pregnant.

Renato Canova wrote:

Mother of morons always is pregnant.

Priceless! :-D

Renato,

What is your interpretation of this 5 sets of 4 x 100m in 14, in the schedule you provided for a 30 minute 10k runner.

Later you said this 5 sets of 4 x 100m in 14 is not a good workout.

Do you think some other workout for speed would be better?

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=255993&thread=220022

Renato,

Indeed it is interesting the dynamics of fuel utilization. I have a generalized theory about maximum lactate steady state and goes like this: one can only maintain about half of ones max plasma lactate at threshold. A distance runner, for example, with mostly slow oxidative fibers may have a maximum production of 6 mmols on a typical incremental step-increase test and therefore their personal MSS lactate is about 3 mmols. An average Joe who runs 20 minutes for the 5k or Jane who run 22 minutes can produce arounnd 8 mmols for a max plasma lactate on an incremental running test, so their personal max lactate steady state is around 4 mmols. An elite 5k runner might hit 16 mmols on an incremental test and therefore their personal MSS lactate is around 8 mmols. An 800m runner may hit 18 or 20 mmols on an incremental test and therefore their personal MSS lactate is about 9-10, when in peak shape. Just a thought. What is your opinion of such a possible correlation?

Thank you very much for your excellent reply.

Paul "the lipidic cannibal" Tergat. Maybe the Hannible shoe.

Thank you.

tinman,

it sounds good to me, but i think that the lowest max would be about 10 mmols for the ultra distance runners who have the least slow twitch, it they trained for 800/1500m races.

cheers

JonnyO

Tinman,

Based on your theory, would a world class 800 meter runner have a faster 10000 meter time than a world class 5000 meter runner.

I fine hypothetical discussions rather boring, and there are actual tests that have been completed to provide the results that occur in reality.

dunes runner, that makes no sense at all, i am not the only person to wonder what planet you are posting from?

Which part don't you understand.

dunes runner, so you mean why doesn't the higher max lass of the 800m runner yield a better 10000m time that that of the 5000m ?

o.k. sorry i see where you are coming from there on planet dunes :-)

its a good question, but we have to take running economy into account too, a 5000m runner will be more economical in a 10000m than an 800m runner and this will make a big difference in the times they can run.

Yes that's the question.

hopefully i answered your question in my previous post

I suppose you are thinking that lactate accumulation is the cause of slowing down rather than the effect of how much pyruvate is being generated. Just as the quantity of oxygen one can consume is not highly correlated with speed for a homogeneous group of runners, so is the quantity of lactate measured not a solid predictor of race velocity. Rather, the velocity at VO2 and the velocity at lactate produced the way to predict race times. My generalized theory does hold some water and is independent of velocity at which values are recorded. I am simply suggesting that a fairly good correlation exists between the maximum a runner can produce and the maximum steady one achieves. People wondered why, for instance, that Salazar's max steady state lactate was only about 2.5 mmols. No wonder it was when you consider that his peak lactate values recorded on incremental tests were about 5 mmols. Let us figure out why this seeming correlation exists. Maybe this is a research project for someone.

tinman i suspect there are three reasons why Salazar only recorded a max of 5 mmols in that test.

the first is that he was probably in marathon training and wasnt doing the high intensity sessions required to boost lactate tolerance, i.e. he wasn't doing 800/1500/3000/5000m sessions.

another reason i suspect is low blood sugar. i believe Alberto Salazar would often be running with low glycogen reserves in those days simply because he was training so much. i have had the same problem in the last two days.

at 5 mmols when running well,i suspect he was running at about the equivalent of 2.50/k or 4.33/mile pace, maybe slightly faster, what speed did he record in the test?

if it was much faster than this, then perhaps the test was over too quickly for enough lactate to accumulate for a max reading, or perhaps another reading should have been taken slightly later?

another reason i suspect is that he had so few fast twitch fibres that his readings were much lower than normal. i believe that he did have a very low proportion of fast twitch, but does this give super low lactate tolerance?

cheers

JonnyO

Renato Canova,

I only trained for a year at 1500m in high school but was better at the 3000m. I was off for 10 years, did some jogging for 2 to 3 years and was off again for 2 years. I started jogging again almost a year ago. Several years ago, I was able to easilly do a 200m in 28 seconds (after doing hills for 8 weeks). Although I found I was too tired to do speedwork.

Lately, I decided to do it in a more gradual way so I could last and do speedwork every week. First, I use a heart rate monitor and keep myself around 140 beats per minute most of the time when I jog.

Second, I started doing 2x60m one week, then 3x60m the next week, then 4x60m the following week then 1x100m in 16.6 and 3x60m then last weekend I did 2x100m with both in 15.7 seconds and 2x60m in ? and 9.2 seconds

This weekend, I'd like to do 1x200m, 2x100m and 1x60m and go up until I get to 8x200m.

I have a double goal. I'd like to start training for the 1500m again but one real dream for me would be to run a 200m in 25 seconds or less.

I read that 2 sets of 4 times 30m is good to improve your speed. Is this something you recommend? How long does it usually take to get to your potential over 200m? I'm 33 years old.

Renato, if you don't want to answer the other post, can you answer the following?

You said: "In Kenya, the 90% of training for young runners is "natural training" with aerobic direction. So, they run long run easy, 20 min hard, some repetition not very hard (no longer than 400m) and some fartlek (normally using 1 min fast / 1 min easy). They don't seek any intensity."

If someone in Canada or the USA wanted to train 13 to 15 year olds, how would they do it? How would the program be structured specifically and how would you change the program from one year to another? Would you have to start younger than 13 years old?

i think Renato is gone to Kenya by now...

I want to say what happened last Thursday (29 Jan) during a training on a rough road between Eldoret and Kaptagat. I went with a small group of runners (Jennifer Chesinon, that will run Mumbay Marathon on 15th of Feb, with 3 guys running with her) at 13 o'clock, for adapting Jennifer to the conditions of the race (very hot and humid). After running about 1 hour (the pace was about 3:50 per km), we met a group of boys going to school, for a Primary (from 6 to 14 years). It's possible to recognize the school as in Kenya every college uses a different uniform. When the boys (and the girls) saw the group of runners, the 50% of them (about 15 people, from 8-9 to 14 years) began running with my athletes, someone barefoot, some other with normal shoes, someone with used shoes of different companies (expecially Nike and Fila). I remember one child of 8-9 years, barefoot, very nice in technique, and a girl 15 years old (I spoke with her, giving the address of the Camp, because was really very strong). They ran for about 2 km, when we met a group of a Secondary School (from 14 to 18 years)with a different uniform. Also in this case, many of them started running with the group. After other 2 km again, we met a third group from another Primary, and yet about 10 guys joined with the group of runners.

At the end of the road (after more than 5 km for the first group of guys, about 3 for the second group and about 1 for the last group), more than 50 runners were together, following their instinct and enjoying running without any other goal than their fun.

If I had a videocamera, I could have a wonderful and natural movie about the instinct of Kenyans in rural area (near Nairobi, nobody runs).

This is the reason of the big difference between western people and african people. For them is yet something of natural, that they have in their DNA. For us, is something no more interesting, as the brain of our guys is thrown in direction of motors, speed, machines, and a lot of other means, but not in direction of their body and the fatigue.

So, what can I answer ?

If we are able to collect a group of western boys 13 years old, we must train them for increasing general resistance at first, as their life is totally without any knowledge about this type of attitude (also mentally). Then, we have to build the passion for controlling their personal improvements, as in athletics we have the possibilities of measuring ourselves. At the end, we must train all the qualities (like cohordination, strenght and ability) that can be very important, but we must think that, with our normal life, already the brain of today's boys is prepared for a high level of cohordination (they have only to transfer this attitude to their muscles).

One thing is sure : without the capacity of suffering for facing the fatigue, is not possible to become a runner of high level. I think that this step is the first for educating a young runner.