Did the Kranicks coach this kid, Tooker, if yes then kudos, because he became a 3:41/3:59/8:28 (steeple) - National class.
Don't have time to listen to the whole Tooker interview so maybe someone can weigh in. I just heard the first part where he weighed only 90 lb in 8th grade or 9th grade. Tiny.
Yeah tooker was insanely good. He was a cornball though and a terrible sport. Jay Navin was a really good 800/1600 guy also and I remember competing against him. And Navin was cool, he congratulated me one time after a race.
There's really nothing to report on. I ran HS and D1 in NY, was teammates with several FM (and Saratoga) kids and none of them had anything good to say about him. He ran the kids into the ground for his own ego, the kids were shot by the time they got to college, and other big schools around the country caught up to and surpassed what FM was doing for training.
Then all of the reputation hits started coming in, I know a few now-HS coaches who said through the grapevine that parents basically don't want their kids running for him. And now he just cares about his grandson on the team. They're a dead program.
Someone mentioned in another thread that Bill’s son coaches a local running program for 10-13 year olds and overtrains them.
From what I hear, the training at FM is so intense that not many people want to do it. Some of them join freshman year and then quit. With the small teams, not many more people will join because not many people at the school have friends or family members on the team. It’s a vicious cycle
The FM middle school XC program always has lots of people in it, but many of them end up choosing not to do FM high school XC because they don’t want to be part of the Stotan program
Only because they don't want to work hard to be a good runner. Running isn't fun for everyone regardless of how many miles you put in. Basketball and lacrosse are easier to train for and you still get to be in a sport.
The FM middle school XC program always has lots of people in it, but many of them end up choosing not to do FM high school XC because they don’t want to be part of the Stotan program
Only because they don't want to work hard to be a good runner. Running isn't fun for everyone regardless of how many miles you put in. Basketball and lacrosse are easier to train for and you still get to be in a sport.
It’s funny how a few here are so triggered by one or two schools. Obvious they didn’t have a good experience. I know many coaches and school programs in the tri state area and those who actually do well resemble what has been said here. They train hard, and the students who can’t handle the work quit. Nothing new. Or they all become sprinters so they can say they’re in track and run 5 miles a week. End of story.
This post was edited 32 seconds after it was posted.
Only because they don't want to work hard to be a good runner. Running isn't fun for everyone regardless of how many miles you put in. Basketball and lacrosse are easier to train for and you still get to be in a sport.
It’s funny how a few here are so triggered by one or two schools. Obvious they didn’t have a good experience. I know many coaches and school programs in the tri state area and those who actually do well resemble what has been said here. They train hard, and the students who can’t handle the work quit. Nothing new. Or they all become sprinters so they can say they’re in track and run 5 miles a week. End of story.
True. When a program(s) is on top, trolls like me show up appearing triggered. My points have been that athletes in unusual programs like Kinetic and FM appear to be part of a cult following.
Scholastic athletics as defined by the New York State Public High School Athletics Association is defined as follows:
Scholastic athletics emphasizes education-based, interscholastic sports for grades 7-12, balancing athletic competition with academic success, recognizing it as integral to student growth, governed by state rules, and promoting responsible citizenship, not professional sport.
So, do you understand why some of us are triggered especially when at the receiving end of getting screwed over by FM and Saratoga distance programs? Nys xc has exactly ONE team spot per section. That means national championship or national podium teams that train 364/365 take a well deserved spot from very good teams who cannot even make their own state meet!
Nysphsaa is absolutely a guilty party here. They have delegated coach decisions to local school districts and not appear to take any role to address what appear to be obvious violations to the spirit of scholastic athletics vs. Professional sport!
The state and the school administration are definitely just as guilty as the kranicks. The constant investigations since the 90s were pushed aside by the ADs and the state could only not see what was going on if they were willfully ignorant. When kids from casual teams running for fun know the Kranicks are dangerous and weird so does everyone else
So called “HS XC Expert” - in the absence of FM’s dominance over the past half decade, what then is your valid excuse for not winning? Is it due to Saratoga’s dominance in that time span? Other teams have risen to the occasion. Or is it because you just suck. You can’t use these excuses anymore, when they havent been factors.
So called “HS XC Expert” - in the absence of FM’s dominance over the past half decade, what then is your valid excuse for not winning? Is it due to Saratoga’s dominance in that time span? Other teams have risen to the occasion. Or is it because you just suck. You can’t use these excuses anymore, when they havent been factors.
^ This. screwed over by a program?? It’s running. National champs are won by the fastest runners. Based on time. Funny how the self proclaimed trolls can’t handle others being faster than them.
So called “HS XC Expert” - in the absence of FM’s dominance over the past half decade, what then is your valid excuse for not winning? Is it due to Saratoga’s dominance in that time span? Other teams have risen to the occasion. Or is it because you just suck. You can’t use these excuses anymore, when they havent been factors.
I cannot reveal if my team won or lost without revealing my identity. I only call myself "hs xc expert" as I spent a ridiculous amount of time studying trends and data courtesy of tully runners to figure out how to beat saratoga girls hs xc team in xc and track. My analysis found opportunities to exploit in xc. I could not figure out track. They run too much to keep up with their blistering starts to a 1500 and 3k without blowing up my athlete(s).
I was unwilling to sacrifice the future of young and developing young woman. I read all about allie ostrander and read melody Fairchild's book.
I followed jay johnson and steve magnes' methods - not lydiard and cerutty.
In closing, I accepted the challenge (and likely defeat) - especially in track. Other methods were used to celebrate success such as PRs, improvement, and positive attitude. Growth mindset was king over fixed mindset of "beat Toga or FM" in their heyday.
Fyi....years that I very closely studied FM and Toga girls teams was 2012 to spring 2023. Both programs were strong during this period. There were many high quality runners for both programs during this window. My analysis of how to defeat these programs waned after June 2023 when I exited the scene. See, this is normal. You coach for a few years and exit. It is rare to be in the game for decades - especially year round for relatively low pay.
About 10 years ago I had one of my few runners who had a chance to make the State Championships running the steeple in the State Qualifiers. For most of the race my runner and the Saratoga runner were back and forth in front. The last 200 a runner from another school passed both and earned the spot to the State Championship. I happened to be in the same ski club as the father of the Saratoga runner and after the race I was talking to him. He was okay about his kid not making states but it was like being in the reception line of a wake. At least 15 other Saratoga parents came up to him. Many moms were in tears, one dad asked him how he was holding up, another dad told a story about how his daughter missed states a few years earlier. One dad told him “Your daughter needs a you now. You have to be there for her now.” There were plenty of hugs, and tears. When you have the parents so invested in the team they are crying when another kid doesn’t make States you are going to have a hell of a time getting rid of the coaches.
Second story, when Kelsey Chimel was a a senior , Saratoga was trying to get 3 girls to qualify for the State Championship in the 3000. Chimel had the “super standard”, a second girl had the at large standard and the third girl had neither, so the only way the 3 make it is if the slowest girl wins, the girl with the at large standard gets second and Kelsey gets third. The 3000 starts and the Saratoga girls go into the lead running in the formation they need to get all 3 to the State Championship. The problem is that a girl from Ballston Spa latches on to the back of them. After 4 laps the Ballston Spa girl goes into the lead and suddenly the Saratoga girls start racing, Chimel starts racing, the second fast girl starts racing, and pretty soon they are separated from the slowest Saratoga girl and the Ballston SPA girl and a hundred yards ahead.
With a lap to go the Ballston Spa girl dies and the slowest Saratoga girl is in third but they are in the wrong order for all 3 to make States. Chimel has a huge lead and gets 20 yards from the finish and Kranick orders her to stop right there, he tells the the second girl from Saratoga stop at the same spot and they stand on the track about 15-20 seconds for the third Saratoga girl to pass them , then they start running and finish in the order to get all three to the state championship.
Fyi....years that I very closely studied FM and Toga girls teams was 2012 to spring 2023. Both programs were strong during this period. There were many high quality runners for both programs during this window. My analysis of how to defeat these programs waned after June 2023 when I exited the scene. See, this is normal. You coach for a few years and exit. It is rare to be in the game for decades - especially year round for relatively low pay.
It shouldn't have taken you eleven years to figure out their teams were faster than your team.
Second story, when Kelsey Chimel was a a senior , Saratoga was trying to get 3 girls to qualify for the State Championship in the 3000. Chimel had the “super standard”, a second girl had the at large standard and the third girl had neither, so the only way the 3 make it is if the slowest girl wins, the girl with the at large standard gets second and Kelsey gets third. The 3000 starts and the Saratoga girls go into the lead running in the formation they need to get all 3 to the State Championship. The problem is that a girl from Ballston Spa latches on to the back of them. After 4 laps the Ballston Spa girl goes into the lead and suddenly the Saratoga girls start racing, Chimel starts racing, the second fast girl starts racing, and pretty soon they are separated from the slowest Saratoga girl and the Ballston SPA girl and a hundred yards ahead.
With a lap to go the Ballston Spa girl dies and the slowest Saratoga girl is in third but they are in the wrong order for all 3 to make States. Chimel has a huge lead and gets 20 yards from the finish and Kranick orders her to stop right there, he tells the the second girl from Saratoga stop at the same spot and they stand on the track about 15-20 seconds for the third Saratoga girl to pass them , then they start running and finish in the order to get all three to the state championship.
Cool. Except that is NOT what happened. The Ballston Spa girl (DeMars) won and Saratoga went 2nd, 3rd, 4th with Chmiel in 3rd.
Second story, when Kelsey Chimel was a a senior , Saratoga was trying to get 3 girls to qualify for the State Championship in the 3000. Chimel had the “super standard”, a second girl had the at large standard and the third girl had neither, so the only way the 3 make it is if the slowest girl wins, the girl with the at large standard gets second and Kelsey gets third. The 3000 starts and the Saratoga girls go into the lead running in the formation they need to get all 3 to the State Championship. The problem is that a girl from Ballston Spa latches on to the back of them. After 4 laps the Ballston Spa girl goes into the lead and suddenly the Saratoga girls start racing, Chimel starts racing, the second fast girl starts racing, and pretty soon they are separated from the slowest Saratoga girl and the Ballston SPA girl and a hundred yards ahead.
With a lap to go the Ballston Spa girl dies and the slowest Saratoga girl is in third but they are in the wrong order for all 3 to make States. Chimel has a huge lead and gets 20 yards from the finish and Kranick orders her to stop right there, he tells the the second girl from Saratoga stop at the same spot and they stand on the track about 15-20 seconds for the third Saratoga girl to pass them , then they start running and finish in the order to get all three to the state championship.
Cool. Except that is NOT what happened. The Ballston Spa girl (DeMars) won and Saratoga went 2nd, 3rd, 4th with Chmiel in 3rd.
Crazy scene yesterday at the New York State Qualifier meet at Shendehowa High. Saratoga’s Kelsey Chemiel, Ella Kurto and Mckinnley Wheeler and Ballston Spa’s Faith Demars break away from the pack at the gun. After 5 1/2 laps...
Fyi....years that I very closely studied FM and Toga girls teams was 2012 to spring 2023. Both programs were strong during this period. There were many high quality runners for both programs during this window. My analysis of how to defeat these programs waned after June 2023 when I exited the scene. See, this is normal. You coach for a few years and exit. It is rare to be in the game for decades - especially year round for relatively low pay.
Wow. Bro, you need to let it go. They were fast!! That’s the analysis. Maybe you should seek some therapy
