You mean the Renato who argues that EPO doesn't work on athletes trained at altitude - even though he has never tried it with his athletes and doesn't know any who have? Yet they continue to dope. He does have something in common with rekrunner, which is a confidence in maintaining a view of that which he has no experience of and no data that supports it, because doped athletes don't volunteer to be research subjects.
Renato and rekrunner undertand physiology. You don't.
No, they don't. Neither is a scientist. Renato is an expert on training and rekrunner is not an expert on anything. As Sage says, he is simply clueless. They make categorical pronouncements about the ineffectiveness of doping with no experience of doping or of doped athletes. Yet the numbers of athletes who have doped and still do speaks for itself.
Renato and rekrunner undertand physiology. You don't.
No, they don't. Neither is a scientist. Renato is an expert on training and rekrunner is not an expert on anything. As Sage says, he is simply clueless. They make categorical pronouncements about the ineffectiveness of doping with no experience of doping or of doped athletes. Yet the numbers of athletes who have doped and still do speaks for itself.
You don't have to be a scientist to understand exercise physiology. Those athletes who grew up, live and train at altitude already have higher levels of EPO in their blood. It might harm their performance, and even their health, to increase it artificially. Some take the chance though.
"culture" doesn't explain anything, it's just a restatement of the original question, like the gag in Candide about the "dormitive principle". where does culture (/"tradition"/"social norms") come from? "the Japanese are good marathoners because distance running is popular in Japan", okay, sure, but why is distance running popular? it's not like the Chinese and Koreans just never thought of it.
some notes: Koreans are bigger than Japanese under a modern food environment. China does have a lot more people than Japan but there's a pretty wide range of ethnicities there, they're not all Han (and of course no Ainu admixture.). China surely has worse environmental conditions (air, water, food) than Japan. places with cold winters and borderline-autistic national characters seem to do pretty well in endurance events generally, Norway/Sweden/Finland being the obvious cases in point.
No, they don't. Neither is a scientist. Renato is an expert on training and rekrunner is not an expert on anything. As Sage says, he is simply clueless. They make categorical pronouncements about the ineffectiveness of doping with no experience of doping or of doped athletes. Yet the numbers of athletes who have doped and still do speaks for itself.
You don't have to be a scientist to understand exercise physiology. Those athletes who grew up, live and train at altitude already have higher levels of EPO in their blood. It might harm their performance, and even their health, to increase it artificially. Some take the chance though.
But multiple reports looking into Kenyan doping cite a lack of anti-doping information and education as a significant factor.
It hasn't helped you. You still don't understand what doping does. Kenyans obviously do. They just haven't figured out how to get away with it. Lack of "education".
But multiple reports looking into Kenyan doping cite a lack of anti-doping information and education as a significant factor.
It hasn't helped you. You still don't understand what doping does. Kenyans obviously do. They just haven't figured out how to get away with it. Lack of "education".
Man, you are really stupid. You say that those Kenyans at the top, like Kiptum, are getting awat with it. Now you say they haven't figured out how to get away with it. Stupid. Lack of education on your part.
You mean the Renato who argues that EPO doesn't work on athletes trained at altitude - even though he has never tried it with his athletes and doesn't know any who have? Yet they continue to dope. He does have something in common with rekrunner, which is a confidence in maintaining a view of that which he has no experience of and no data that supports it, because doped athletes don't volunteer to be research subjects.
You also have confidence in maintaining a view of that which you have no experience and no data that supports it.
But now it seems you have the comprehension problem. I do not present altitude and synthetic EPO as either/or scenarios.
Well, I did get confused here, yes. What did you mean with "unless you mean naturally by virtue of their environment at altitude."? That implied to my understanding that artificially by virtue of doping or blood transfusion doesn't work in your opinion.
And then you move on to ask whether EPO works? Huh? Didn't you just say that "altitude and synthetic EPO" work? So what now?
We don't need to dwell on your past confusion, now that I have clarified it is not an either/or scenario.
The way to understand the comment is that your list of Kenyans will have already benefited from naturally elevated EPO stimulation, continuously their whole lives, from their very first breath. They already have aerobically strong cardio-vascular oxygen delivery systems. The question is whether further artificial elevation will provide additional performance benefits, as measured by a stopwatch. As I said, I'm not so sure, as that box has already been checked.
If artifical "EPO works", we should predict marginal gains from high altitude inhabitants (living and training at the right altitude), and substantially larger gains from the aerobically weaker sea-level athletes. Anyone following sports performances knows what really happened in the EPO-era, on the track, on the grass, and on the roads.
Can you be more specific, preferably among the fastest athletes, and even better with conclusive evidence of EPO "working"?
Boulami - world record while doped, lasted for decades until super spikes came, still 2nd fastest time ever
Ramzi - improved exponentially culminating in Olympic gold while doped
Saginova - beat Semanya (with 9 nmol/l testo) at Worlds and Olympics for gold while doped
I could go on. Some of the Kenyan mentioned above would qualify too, such as A. Kiptum running a WR while doped.
Please go on, preferably with the "even better ..." part. These are potential candidates, but what is missing is the conclusive evidence that it was EPO that "worked", and that what "worked" was not something else. For example, did Saginova also take steroids? That would put her on more even terms with Semenya. Ramzi changed his country, his coach and his training. Others have run near Boulami's time, in an event which is not often raced for records.
Sure, no question that many athletes "use", but where is the Lance Armstrong from the USA, or the Jan Ulrich from Europe? What is it that they know?
Leaving aside that lots of people have provided evidence that you either ignore or deflect from with ridiculous what-if scenarios, the TdF scandals got police involvement because of Italy and border-crossings with drugs and FBI involvement because of US Postal, leading to huge doping discoveries. Armstrong got only canned after retirement btw because of the relentless Tygart building on the above. No such "luck" with runners yet.
The IAAF got lucky - when their scandals broke, 1st with hiding doping positives and 2nd with ignoring blood doping, both over many years, they were able to keep the investigation in-house and blamed a select few within IAAF and Russia only. The Sunday Times has published back then that athletics is now dirtier than cycling...
You keep asking new questions... the answer to that one is for example Shobukhova (dominated for years, won several majors and then got DQ'd for blood doping) Radcliffe (likely doping, WRs, brushed away with the above-mentioned in-house investigation) or Farah (likely doping, multiple Olympic and World champ, coached by finally banned doper Salazar), or Rupp (likely doping, ARs, Olympic medals, coached by finally banned doper Salazar).
Which evidence? I don't ever ignore the evidence. All my statements and doubts are consistent with all the evidence that everyone one of the "lots of people" provided. I just disregard any over-interpretations from non-experts.
I don't speak of cycling busts, but EPO-aided performances. If EPO was as powerful and as widespread as is popularly believed, we would have seen it in the performances in the '90s, when there was no test for it -- both in and out of Africa. I'm not all that interested in EPO working invisibly in the American and European runners who were getting lapped in the big races.
The Sunday Times published something back then something about the sport "now"? How prescient. Again -- I don't care about "extreme Ret-% (an awkward measure of "dirty")" -- if running is so dirty, where were the performances?
Armstronglivs keeps appealing to the runners' experiences, but what were their experiences, in their own words? Many cyclists have talked, but where are the running anecdotes from the athletes themselves? History suggests the non-African experience was not comparable to the East Africans', and rather comparable to pre-EPO era performances.
Regarding you answers:
Shobukhova -- did she also take steroids? If so, then what "worked"?
Radcliffe -- did she even dope? The much talked about blood values were taken under conditions well known to produce false positives and higher blood values. Many non-experts drew their own conclusions off this inconclusive evidence.
Farah, Rupp -- did they even dope? Tygart said he left no stone unturned.
That is why I turn to learned men (and women) like yourself who are so adamant that EPO worked, to share their bases for their conviction. Yet here we are, you cannot say if EPO worked for anyone else. You cannot be specific. You cannot provide any evidence.
Sure, no question that many athletes "use", but where is the Lance Armstrong from the USA, or the Jan Ulrich from Europe? What is it that they know?
Jesus Chr*st. The fact that athletes in all kinds of sports have used it for decades and that the antidoping organisations have long sought to prevent its use is nonetheless not "evidence" in your books that it is a ped shows the breathtaking extent of your doping denial. You can maintain that ludicrous flat-earth position because the only "evidence" you would accept is unattainable, which is from athletes who have used the drug making themselves available for scientific research. Not one has. Surprising. Yet the drug has been used throughout sports and still is. The reason for its widespread use (along with other drugs) is obvious but the only one you can come up with is that athletes, coaches and antidoping experts are all idiots. On this and all doping issues you have effectively locked your mind up and thrown away the key.
That doesn't really answer any question, does it.
The fact that athletes "use" is evidence of "use", and suggests a "belief" that the reward will be worth the risk. That "belief", combined with a lack of contradictory information, is the reason for its widespread use. It is all rather logical for coaches/athletes, just based on incomplete, or wrong, information, lacking substantial evidence.
Anti-doping experts worry about combinations of performance, health, and spirit of the sport. Their assessment is subjective, not requiring proof. They make banned lists factoring in all Olympic sports, not just one type of event in one of its sports. They don't even list which criteria were satisfied, when banning a substance.
I don't depend soley on lacking scientific research. The extent of the lack of data and evidence goes far beyond scientific research. Athletes who use banned drugs, typically run races and produce performances which can be measured with a stopwatch, that can be compared with other performances. If PEDs will produce a desired result, we should expect to see changes in these results.
Renato and rekrunner undertand physiology. You don't.
No, they don't. Neither is a scientist. Renato is an expert on training and rekrunner is not an expert on anything. As Sage says, he is simply clueless. They make categorical pronouncements about the ineffectiveness of doping with no experience of doping or of doped athletes. Yet the numbers of athletes who have doped and still do speaks for itself.
Sure I do.
Sage was unwise.
You are likewise an expert in none of the relevant fields. This is why you so quickly result to insults when someone pokes at your beliefs.
Athletes using speaks volumes about "use" and "belief". Their performances speak for themselves.
It hasn't helped you. You still don't understand what doping does. Kenyans obviously do. They just haven't figured out how to get away with it. Lack of "education".
Man, you are really stupid. You say that those Kenyans at the top, like Kiptum, are getting awat with it. Now you say they haven't figured out how to get away with it. Stupid. Lack of education on your part.
You haven't noticed the stream of doping violations coming out of Kenya. But there isn't much you notice, aside from my posts.
You mean the Renato who argues that EPO doesn't work on athletes trained at altitude - even though he has never tried it with his athletes and doesn't know any who have? Yet they continue to dope. He does have something in common with rekrunner, which is a confidence in maintaining a view of that which he has no experience of and no data that supports it, because doped athletes don't volunteer to be research subjects.
You also have confidence in maintaining a view of that which you have no experience and no data that supports it.
I don't have to. The evidence is overwhelming. The presence of peds in every sport for decades, that defy the best efforts of antidoping. If doping was ineffective it wouldn't exist.
Jesus Chr*st. The fact that athletes in all kinds of sports have used it for decades and that the antidoping organisations have long sought to prevent its use is nonetheless not "evidence" in your books that it is a ped shows the breathtaking extent of your doping denial. You can maintain that ludicrous flat-earth position because the only "evidence" you would accept is unattainable, which is from athletes who have used the drug making themselves available for scientific research. Not one has. Surprising. Yet the drug has been used throughout sports and still is. The reason for its widespread use (along with other drugs) is obvious but the only one you can come up with is that athletes, coaches and antidoping experts are all idiots. On this and all doping issues you have effectively locked your mind up and thrown away the key.
That doesn't really answer any question, does it.
The fact that athletes "use" is evidence of "use", and suggests a "belief" that the reward will be worth the risk. That "belief", combined with a lack of contradictory information, is the reason for its widespread use. It is all rather logical for coaches/athletes, just based on incomplete, or wrong, information, lacking substantial evidence.
Anti-doping experts worry about combinations of performance, health, and spirit of the sport. Their assessment is subjective, not requiring proof. They make banned lists factoring in all Olympic sports, not just one type of event in one of its sports. They don't even list which criteria were satisfied, when banning a substance.
I don't depend soley on lacking scientific research. The extent of the lack of data and evidence goes far beyond scientific research. Athletes who use banned drugs, typically run races and produce performances which can be measured with a stopwatch, that can be compared with other performances. If PEDs will produce a desired result, we should expect to see changes in these results.
We do see the effect of peds in results. But the effects can't be measured definitively without knowing for certain which athletes doped and what was their performance level before they doped. None of them choose to supply that data - even when they've been caught. Everything is therefore an estimation. But only the naive, the obtuse or those in denial like yourself will not see that doping has had an effect wherever it has been used.
No, they don't. Neither is a scientist. Renato is an expert on training and rekrunner is not an expert on anything. As Sage says, he is simply clueless. They make categorical pronouncements about the ineffectiveness of doping with no experience of doping or of doped athletes. Yet the numbers of athletes who have doped and still do speaks for itself.
Sure I do.
Sage was unwise.
You are likewise an expert in none of the relevant fields. This is why you so quickly result to insults when someone pokes at your beliefs.
Athletes using speaks volumes about "use" and "belief". Their performances speak for themselves.
I don't have to be an expert. I am not the one who denies the effects of widespread doping in all sports. Your position requires that you know better than the myriad athletes who have doped and their coaches and trainers. You don't have the personal experience, knowledge or data to do that. Therefore you are - as Sage said - the least informed poster on this topic.
The AIU has banned Esther Birundu Borura (Kenya) for 3 years, from 6 September 2023, for the Presence of a Prohibited Substance (19-norandrosterone)/Use of a Prohibited Substance (Nandrolone or Nandrolone precursors). DQ results since 30 June 2023. pic.twitter.com/Jxis1e3Y1n
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