Is BYU at Risk of Budget Cuts?

The 99.99% are rotten wasn't a firm number, it could in fact be 98.5% or 99.2%. As far as the defenders addressing issues in this thread, they are using propaganda provided by the LDS; less believable than Pravda ever was. That is resolutely not a legitimate source. Come up with some authentic and unbiased information, and you will be taken seriously.

nofacetimber wrote:

I agree with you on one thing, I do think this is an interesting thread.

Despite your feigned impartiality or perhaps prejudice. I'm happy to oblige on a few points.

Fair and Balanced wrote:

All the while forcing the lower members to pay for...

I'm not sure what you mean by "lower members", however if you are referring to poor members who pay tithing while the church has vast reserves then let me remind or reveal to you that the Lord requires and honors sacrifice from all his people not only the rich.

Lower members refers to the people who are not in charge. To the people who don't call themselves apostles, who don't call themselves prophets, who aren't in the quorum of seventy, who aren't mission presidents. Provide some evidence that the leaders pay even a cent towards tithing. There is a great emphasis on giving to the already rich, and a total disregard for the scripture about giving to the poor. In the Bible, God speaks often of the poor and needy. He commands us to give generously to the less fortunate and to speak up on their behalf.

Proverbs 19:17

“Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward them for what they have done.”

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Proverbs 22:9

Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.

Luke 12:33-34

Sell your possessions, and give to the needy.

Deuteronomy 15:11

I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

1 John 3:17-18

But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

You see, God takes a dim view of those who hoard massive amounts of money collected in the false name of a religion. He wants that money to be used to help the poor. Of course, these are all examples of scripture taken from the Bible, and LDS doesn't seem to follow the entire Bible, only those select few passages that reinforce what it wants to do.

Fair and Balanced wrote:

Of course, these are all examples of scripture taken from the Bible, and LDS doesn't seem to follow the entire Bible, only those select few passages that reinforce what it wants to do.

The desire to help the poor and needy among us is not lacking in Utah, and since a good portion of Utah residents are Latter Day Saints, I think your unsound conclusion that there is a total disregard for it is sorely lacking.

https://www.ksl.com/article/46566488/utah-is-the-most-generous-state-in-america

Utah generally represents well when it comes to rankings of generosity and charity.

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. 1 Timothy 6:10

Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. Matthew 6:19-21

And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” Luke 3:11

Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor. Proverbs 14:21

If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? James 2:15-16

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. Matthew 23:23

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. Matthew 6:24

“At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do. Deuteronomy 14:28-29

The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked regardeth not to know it. Proverbs 29:7

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate. 1 Timothy 6:17-18

Some people are always greedy for more, but the godly love to give! Proverbs 21:26

And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully, and he thought to himself, ‘What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?’ And he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God.” Luke 12:16-21

And Jesus said to his disciples, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:23-24

Curse those who hoard their grain, but bless the one who sells in time of need. Proverbs 11:26

There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches being hoarded by their owner. Ecclesiastes 5:13

"Though he piles up silver like dust And prepares garments as plentiful as the clay, He may prepare it, but the just will wear it And the innocent will divide the silver. Job 27:16-17

nofacetimber wrote:

Fair and Balanced wrote:

Of course, these are all examples of scripture taken from the Bible, and LDS doesn't seem to follow the entire Bible, only those select few passages that reinforce what it wants to do.

The desire to help the poor and needy among us is not lacking in Utah, and since a good portion of Utah residents are Latter Day Saints, I think your unsound conclusion that there is a total disregard for it is sorely lacking.

https://www.ksl.com/article/46566488/utah-is-the-most-generous-state-in-america

Utah generally represents well when it comes to rankings of generosity and charity.

Individuals in Utah may represent well, but the record of the mormon church in regards to hoarding wealth and not giving to to charity is abysmal and well documented.

joseph smith's 27 preteen wives wrote:

nofacetimber wrote:

The desire to help the poor and needy among us is not lacking in Utah, and since a good portion of Utah residents are Latter Day Saints, I think your unsound conclusion that there is a total disregard for it is sorely lacking.

https://www.ksl.com/article/46566488/utah-is-the-most-generous-state-in-america

Utah generally represents well when it comes to rankings of generosity and charity.

Individuals in Utah may represent well, but the record of the mormon church in regards to hoarding wealth and not giving to to charity is abysmal and well documented.

The article on talks about self-reported volunteering. Volunteering for what? Is it only volunteering for the church? It doesn't mention giving to charity. Do you have any citations of that?

The real distinction here is wicked versus righteous. Race was a tool God used to help separate or preserve the righteous posterity of Nephi and his family.

Whether you grow up in an isolated white tribe or black tribe all your life. If one day you were cursed so that your race or skin color changed, that would be distressing. It doesn't matter if originally you were white or black, you wouldn't be very appealing or attractive to those in the tribe who kept their original skin color. It's human nature, it would take time for people to adjust and accept you.

A racist teaching would imply that God believes white people are superior to dark people. But that is not what is happening here. Race is used to preserve the righteous from the influence of the wicked. To help prevent or slow down the mixing of the posterities through marriage etc... The notion that this scripture teaches that God believes white people are superior to dark people is further discredited in other parts later in the history of the Book of Mormon as God censures the wicked Nephites (white skinned) and looks favorably upon the Lamanites (dark skinned) who turn to righteousness.

So in the sight of God a white man is no better than a black man. A righteous man on the other-hand is looked on more favorably than a wicked man. And that has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

If the priesthood ban was a result of racism within the church, one might reasonably conclude that said racism would spill over into other facets found within the country, the most egregious and prevalent being slavery. But that is not the case.

"Utah’s extended quest for statehood was a second topic that received frequent coverage during the Civil War. Utah first applied for statehood in 1849 and submitted other unsuccessful requests prior to the Civil War. Beginning with South Carolina’s secession in December 1860, eleven states eventually left the Union. A year after the Southern states formed the Confederate States of America, Utah Territory again formally applied for statehood. As William H. Hooper, Utah’s territorial delegate to Congress, noted in a letter to George Q. Cannon, “We show our loyalty by trying to get in while others are trying to get out.”"

"When news of Utah’s statehood request reached the east, the New York Times commented that “in the stirring events of the rebellion, the Mormon territory out in the Great Salt Lake region has probably been the last thing thought of; and it is a little startling to hear that Utah is knocking at the door of the Union, and asking to be let in . . . during the present session [of Congress].” The article further observed that “Utah had dropped as completely out of mind as Pompeii or Palmyra, when, all of a sudden, a few weeks ago, a message was flashed over the wires, by the just completed telegraph from Salt Lake City, announcing to the Government that Utah was loyal to the Union, and her people ready to fight for its preservation.”"

"Northern readers were informed of the prevalent view in Utah that “they were going to become a State” and that if their application was approved by Congress, “they would be as faithful and true as the sun to the Constitution and the Union.” Utahns wanted statehood. That same article concluded, “There are two things which the Mormons seem bent upon doing—entering into the Union, and erecting their wonderful temple.”"

https://

rsc.byu.edu

/archived/civil-war-saints/utah-and-civil-war-press

Brigham Young sent the following telegraph to President Abraham Lincoln: "Utah has not seceded but is firm for the constitution and laws of our once happy country."

Utah a state where 99% of the residents pertained to what you claim is a racist faith, supported the Union, the abolition of slavery, the Constitution, and the belief behind that document that "All men are created equal".

Those facts don't coincide with the perception you are trying to create.

joseph smith's 27 preteen wives wrote:

The article on talks about self-reported volunteering. Volunteering for what? Is it only volunteering for the church? It doesn't mention giving to charity. Do you have any citations of that?

I haven't analyzed the article too closely, but I believe it was pretty general and the volunteering was geared towards community service.

Here's one that touches on charity:

https://wallethub.com/edu/most-and-least-charitable-states/8555/

I haven't looked too closely on how they come up with their numbers but it's a mix of volunteerism and charitable giving.

You are absolutely wrong on this one. Brigham Young brought slavery to Utah and taught that is was ordained of God. At some point, he decided that it was more beneficial for Mormons if Utah became a state, but that doesn't mean he wasn't racists. The Mormons that opposed slavery followed Joseph Smith III and formed the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ. There are so many racists teachings that came out of Brigham's mouth. If I posted the vile thing that he and other Mormon church leaders taught, my post would probably be deleted.

The Book of Mormon teaches that God was racist because he cursed the wicked with dark skin, and if they would become righteous and stay that way "their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people." The Book of Mormon teaches that the dark skin curse will eventually go away and they will become white if they are righteous. Mormon leaders continued to perpetuate this racist teaching. Spencer Kimball who was the Profit of the Mormon Church said, "I see a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today...they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people...For years they have become growing delightsome, and they are becoming white and delightsome as they were promised. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters on the Hogan reservation."

So according to the God of the Book of Mormon. Dark skin = wicked and cursed. Light skin = pure and delightsome.

The Mormon church denied equal rights to blacks in denying them the preisthood based on the color of their skin. That is the definition of racism. You can spin it all you want and try to find justifications, but the facts show that the vile teachings of the so called prophets were racist. I was taught by Mormon Church leaders that blacks were cursed because of the curse of Cain, and they were less valiant in the pre-earth life than white people. It is also still in some Mormon curriculum that interracial marriage should be discouraged.

You are trying to defend a church that has a history of racist teachings. You won't win on this one, and either will the Mormon church until they apologize for their racists teachings, disavow them, and move forward. Progression has always been a difficult thing for Mormon church leaders, despite claiming to be prophetic.

Bring 'em Young wrote:

You are absolutely wrong on this one. Brigham Young brought slavery to Utah and taught that is was ordained of God....

Can you give me a source? How are you coming to the conclusion that Brigham Young taught slavery was ordained of God?

Slavery existed in many forms during the time the saints first came to Utah. Native American tribes at war with each other would capture and enslave their enemies by selling them into slavery in Mexico.

"Some groups of Native people, including the Utes, participated in the slave trade, raiding nearby tribes, capturing potential slaves and selling them to the Mexican elite. They also stole horses and sold them to travelers. By positioning themselves as slave traders, not potential slaves themselves, people like Ute Chief Walkara, or Walker, could evade the enslavement of their own people while maintaining a powerful status relative to other bands and tribes."

Saints tried to disrupt this abuse of human life. The following are excerpts from a history.com article regarding the saints and their involvement in the Native American slave trade, while I don't agree with some of the authors conclusions. The sources go a long way to show that the saints in no way condoned the practice of slavery as we know it.

“Early one morning we were excited at hearing their shrill, blood-curdling war whoop,” wrote John R. Young, who was camped with the Mormons in what would become Salt Lake. The Native people they encountered had just returned from a raid in which they had captured two girls. “One of these they had killed, and were torturing the other,” wrote Young. One of the Mormon settlers intervened, buying the captive girl.

Soon, Mormons were buying slaves regularly in an attempt to save them from their enslavement and to convert them to Mormonism. “It is essentially purchasing them into freedom,” Brigham Young, the pioneers’ leader, wrote. He encouraged other Mormons to “buy up the Lamanite children as fast as they could and to educate them and teach them the gospel.”

This amounted to a green light for participating in the slave trade. In 1852, the Utah territorial legislature passed a law that allowed the trade, justifying it as a kind gesture toward children who would otherwise be degraded. As a result, Mormons were soon trading horses, food, and other items for Native children. Though they did not tolerate the Mexican trade in slaves, they were willing to participate in the slave trade with Native Americans.

Often, Mormons did so because they felt they had no choice. For example, in 1851 Mormons stopped Don Pedro Leon Lujan, a Mexican slave trader, from conducting slave trades with the local Ute people. Walkara’s brother, Arrapine, was furious at what he saw as the Mormons’ interference in his people’s trade. In retaliation, he tried to force the Mormons to purchase the children they had prevented him from selling. When they refused, he murdered a child in front of them.

“Several of us were present when he took one of the children by the heels and dashed his brains out on the hard ground,” Daniel W. Jones, a Mormon settler, recalled. He then threw the body toward the Mormons and told them that if they’d had a heart, they would have purchased the child instead.

When the saints arrived in Utah there were African Americans, both free and slave among them. The following gives some insight into how slavery was viewed/treated in Utah.

"By the time the Saints migrated to Utah, there were both free and enslaved black members of the Church. Green Flake, Hark Lay, and Oscar Crosby, members of the vanguard 1847 pioneer company, were enslaved to Mormon families at the time of their pioneer journey. In 1852, Church leaders serving in Utah’s legislature debated what to do about black slavery in Utah Territory. Brigham Young and Orson Spencer spoke in favor of legalizing and regulating slavery, allowing enslaved men and women to be brought to the territory but prohibiting the enslavement of their descendants and requiring their consent before any move. This approach would guarantee the eventual end of slavery in the territory. Apostle Orson Pratt gave an impassioned speech against any compromise with the practice of slavery: “[To] bind the African because he is different from us in color,” he said, “[is] enough to cause the angels in heaven to blush.” Young and Spencer’s position prevailed, and the legislature authorized a form of black slavery that demanded humane treatment and required access to education."

So yes, you could say in a manner that Brigham Young had a hand in legalizing and easing out the existence of slavery in Utah for existing slave owners. But to characterize him as someone who brought, or encouraged slavery in Utah is false.

-----------

The scripture you shared talks about scales of darkness falling from their eyes ( Lamanite posterity in the Americas ). So the darkness mentioned clearly refers to a spiritual darkness not skin. Now the use of white and delightsome could be interpreted to mean white skin. However white is also symbolic of purity and in the context of the rest of the verse it makes more sense to think of it as white or pure as related to righteousness.

That said, there is at least one occasion mentioned in the Book of Mormon where it specifically mentions that the curse was taken from a group of righteous Lamanites and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.

However there are many more occasions where no change in skin color is mentioned in relation to righteous Lamanites. 2,000 stripling warriors, Samuel the Lamanite etc...

So yes the quote you shared does seem to indicate a belief by Spencer W Kimball that the scripture referenced refers to a change not only morally/spiritually but also in skin color.

Was he correct in this observation? I don't know. Could he be wrong? Very possibly.

It's not too surprising to find all too human faults among men called of God. These faults are plainly manifested in the Bible and Book of Mormon. What would be a red flag to me would be to find a promotion of evil among men claiming to be such.

Who was more in the right on measures regarding African American slavery, Orson Pratt or Brigham Young? I would say Orson Pratt, abolish slavery right away, give them their freedom even if it means that the money the slave owner paid for their services was for naught, if they don't comply convict them. Well that approach wasn't chosen, instead existing slaves would finish out their indentured servitude easing away from slavery. An alternate approach, not an evil or clearly wrong one.

At this point i'm beating a dead horse, I don't think the church is perfect or without fault.

I do think that the treatment and slander of the church is off base. It gets slammed for perceived shortcomings, while being ignored or dismissed in it's virtues. While I do believe the church to be of God despite it's faults, my intention is not try to prove or establish such. As that is a matter of faith. It's the slander, the accusations, the characterization of the church as evil to the core that i'm trying to combat.

blamb61 wrote:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood

I wouldn't put a whole lot of credibility into what the LDS Church reports. It's like reading Pravda in the 1970's to get an accurate description of the United States. For instance, in Brazil the LDS Church claims to have 1,326,738 members as of 2015. However in the Census taken in Brazil only 226,509 claim to follow the LDS faith.

Perhaps the real reason the Priesthood ban was lifted in June of 1978 was because an LDS Temple was set to open in October of 1978 in Brazil. This would be a problem if many Brazilian LDS members that have African blood in them would be banned from entering the LDS temple simply because of their race. Brazil also has a lot of people of mixed heritage even further complicating this matter. The public outcry from members and non-members is something the Church leaders did not want to have to deal with. Therefore, they may have decided to end the Priesthood ban to make it a non-issue. It just seems a little too "convenient" to have a "revelation" about the priesthood being available to everyone who is male just four months ahead of a temple being opened in a country with a high percentage of people of African heritage. Even the first missionaries to Brazil were sent there initially to try to win converts of certain select groups of people. Later they branched out and began teaching to all people.

For further reading on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_in_Brazil

Oh, and back to the original question on this topic. No, I don't think that BYU is at risk of having their budget cut at all.

I thought this was a running message board. Lol

A summary of my most recent conversation with Mormon missionaries (while walking an aggressive, apparently anti-Mormon, rat terrier).

Me: BYU!!

Elder: Go Cougs!

Me: Any of the Elders on the xc team at BYU?

Elder: No.

Me: Afraid of coach Eyestone and his world of pain?

Elder: Who's coach Eyestone?

Me: You guys have a huge, middle linebacker looking RM, that's a steeplechase all American at BYU. Is he on roids or something?

Elder: Nobody cheats at BYU.

Me: Then how can he beat his more svelte teammate Claysun Shumway?

Elder: Would you like a copy of the Book of Mormon?

Me: I already have a copy that I pilfered from a Marriott hotel.

Elder: Have you read it?

Me: I only break it out when I can't fall asleep at night. It knocks me right out after one or two pages. Hey, why are you guys riding around in a wolf pack of four Elders? I thought common practice involved two man teams?

Elder: One of our missionaries was murdered near here.

Me: Are you implying that I had something to do with it?

Elder: Ha ha ha.

Me: So you're saying that I live in a crappy, crime-infested neighborhood?

Kia the rat terrier: grrr... (as the hair on her back rises).

Elder: Nah.

Me: So it's a safety in numbers thing?

Elder: Exactly.

Me: If any of you guys are going back to BYU as a student, you should try to gain access into the realm of the beautiful and exciting BYU t@f/xc ladies.

Elders: Thank you for the advice.

Mormons and Catholics can occasionally get along.

I learn more here than i did at skool.

Think thundersnow!

Um, Utah mormons have always been for slavery. The mormons that broke off to reorganize in the chosen place of Jackson County, Missouri opposed slavery.

Early converts were initially from the Northern United States and opposed slavery, believing they were not supported by Mormon scripture. After the church base moved to the slave state of Missouri and gained Southern converts, CHURCH LEADERS began to own slaves. NEW scriptures were invented teaching against interfering with the slaves of others. Slave owners joined the church, and took their slaves with them to Nauvoo, Illinois, although Illinois was a free state.

After Joseph Smith's death, the church split. The largest contingent followed Brigham Young, who supported slavery, allowing enslaved men and women to be brought to the territory. A smaller contingent followed Joseph Smith III, who opposed slavery, and became the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS). Young led his followers to Utah, where he led the efforts to legalize slavery in the Utah Territory. Brigham Young taught that slavery was ordained of God and taught that the Republican Party's efforts to abolish slavery went against the decrees of God and would eventually fail. He also encouraged members to participate in the Indian slave trade.

LDS Observer wrote: I wouldn't put a whole lot of credibility into what the LDS Church reports. It's like reading Pravda in the 1970's to get an accurate description of the United States. For instance, in Brazil the LDS Church claims to have 1,326,738 members as of 2015. However in the Census taken in Brazil only 226,509 claim to follow the LDS faith.

Actually both numbers are probably true. There are probably 1.3 million members in Brazil on the Church's records. How many of them are active members of the LDS Church is probably something very different. That is why in the census that was taken by the Brazilian government only 226,509 claimed the LDS Church was their religion. This number would probably be the correct number of people who actually attend the church on a weekly basis or at least follow the teachings of the LDS Church. Some could just be members in name only while the vast majority in Brazil rarely or never attend the LDS Church. Nothing new here really. Look how many Catholics, Jews, Protestants, etc. claim they are of that particular religion but don't attend the religious gatherings that often.

nofacetimber wrote:

It's not too surprising to find all too human faults among men called of God. These faults are plainly manifested in the Bible and Book of Mormon. What would be a red flag to me would be to find a promotion of evil among men claiming to be such.

Ummmm, is racism as doctrine not evil?

Mormon leaders are the ones who say that God would never allow them to lead their believers astray. They’ve set the standard of perfection in their doctrine. The problem is, Mormon doctrine changes as prophets change. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God and that the blood atonement should be practiced. That doctrine is now considered false. Others taught that polygamy would always be a part of God’s church. Others taught that blacks, and then mentally and physically handicapped were cursed for being less valiant in the pre-earth life. Early Mormonism believed in a trinitarian view of the godhead. I’m sure I could think of a lot more changes if I thought more about it longer.

If Mormon prophets were wrong so many times in the past, could they be wrong about the treatment of the LGTBQ community? Could they be wrong about requiring 10% of members’ income and hording hundreds of billions in net assets while giving very little to the poor? Could they be wrong about gender identity? Could they be wrong about the role and treatment of women? Could they be wrong when they married multiple teenage women as middle aged men? Could they be wrong about actually being God’s mouthpiece?

In my opinion, the examples of what they could be wrong about are actually examples of them using their influence for evil.

Just go to Reddit Ex-Mormon.

Former Mormons telling the truth.

If LDS was a person, it would be Trump:

Outrageously racist.

Like the rapist pedophile Trump, hates women.

Lies as a default.

Doesn't give to charity.

Doesn't pay the taxes it owes.

Believes in adultery and marrying multiple times.

Embraces communism.

Is unpatriotic and avoids military service.