2:19 on 70-80 miles per week.

Below Average wrote:

Week 1 down, 22 weeks to go.

M 7.6 6:34 pace

T 10 miles, 20x400 in 71 average with 50ish sec rest average

W 7.3 6:48 pace

Th 10 miles, 33:25 July 4th 10k tempo. Second place 37:30. Ran 34:01 last year

F 7.5 6:41 pace

S 8.9 6:46 pace

S 12 miles 6:41 pace

Total: 63ish miles

Feeling good! Biggest chance is specific pace for easy days. I’ve always just went out and ran. Usually 7:30-7:10 pace this year so I’ve upped the easy day pace quite a bit. Other random facts that may help or hurt my chances. 6’2 160-165 lbs and size 14 feet. Vaporflys only go up to size 13 so I’ll have to do it the old fashioned way. 42,000 almost entirely injury free lifetime training miles. I’m guessing a large lifetime base will be very helpful for this current lower mileage approach?

Shoe size 14 ??? Does JS coach Big Foot? Just kidding you. This will be my favorite thread here at LRC to follow.

I found it much more useful (successful) to have them train by time. Let’s say you have three 1600 runners with times of 4:00; 6:00 & 8:00. I would have the:

4:00 do 400@ 60 seconds

6:00 do 266@ 60 seconds

8:00 do 200@60 seconds

All would start in different spots finish in the same spot at very close to the same time. I do the same thing with the longer runs as well.

vladimir wrote:

I found it much more useful (successful) to have them train by time. Let’s say you have three 1600 runners with times of 4:00; 6:00 & 8:00. I would have the:

4:00 do 400@ 60 seconds

6:00 do 266@ 60 seconds

8:00 do 200@60 seconds

All would start in different spots finish in the same spot at very close to the same time. I do the same thing with the longer runs as well.

A good one in some way, but you forget something I think…...they will not run the same total distance if they have to finish the workout at same time?

Thats the point the same effort based upon their ability

vladimir wrote:

Thats the point the same effort based upon their ability

Okey, but they will not cover the same total distance upon their ability,and that I think is highly essential together

with individual best pace and recovery time.

Anyways , as I first told there are a couple of ways to do a good "Team-workout", eg "Paarlauf" and some more.

I’m committed to this experiment 100% until 12/8 at least. If I get anywhere close to actually pulling this off, I think I’ll be committed for life!

Should a person on their first day of training run the same distance as a person that’s been training & racing for years- no. Should a person who has taken five years off pick up training where they left off- no. Training has to be totally geared to the individual. You have to train where you are! Not where you want to be or where you used to be. A younger edition of myself could float thru a series of sub 60 second 400 (440 yards then)- today I struggle to run one 400 in under 70. You can’t train everyone the same because we don’t all have the same background (training).

vladimir wrote:

Should a person on their first day of training run the same distance as a person that’s been training & racing for years- no. Should a person who has taken five years off pick up training where they left off- no. Training has to be totally geared to the individual. You have to train where you are! Not where you want to be or where you used to be. A younger edition of myself could float thru a series of sub 60 second 400 (440 yards then)- today I struggle to run one 400 in under 70. You can’t train everyone the same because we don’t all have the same background (training).

Demonstrably I can train everyone , sprint to ultra, with the same basic philosophy. It`s just a matter of ….individual right pace.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

The way to do it correct if you like to test next time is to run fast reps of 60 sec ( at about your 5 k race pace) and then just walk easy between until your pulse is back to 120 bpm .

I ran these at mile pace (4' distance).

Your comment reminded me that I used to run 40x 60s / rest 30s walking, at my 5k pace many times. For example 40x 57s at my 5k pace (measured distance) with 33s rest walking, followed by 4x 51s (same distance) rest 69s, then a few days later ran my fastest time for the 5k. I did 60 of them once and felt that was too many, though my highest heart rate was moderate. I don't know what the recovery heart rates were. I also did them with 18 second recoveries but felt the shorter recoveries were not as productive.

Thus I'm convinced that this method works and I plan to keep using it.

Interesting what you wrote . 40 x 400m or 40 x 60 sec is even in my system sometimes when preparing for a marathon.

Then they are not at 5 k pace but lactate threshold pace (LT) and same rest down to 120 bpm . One of my best marathoners did this before Riga marathon ( pacemaker) and 45 x 60 sec at LT-pace with 60 sec jog in between at about 90 sec / 400m pace . This was the last specific long run he did before that race so we used jogs in between the reps.

I think I remember Jack Daniels told that when running 400s maxVO2 at 5 k race pace there is no need for more than about 20 of them. Running more at that pace will risk overload. Just keep on with your good training and Good luck!

I did 10x 65s with varied intervals this morning as a check, and part of a longer workout, and found them difficult to keep track of, so will stick with specific rest intervals from now on. They are probably good when not knowing how long to pause, but I usually have a good idea.

Coach JS, I hope it's okay to ask a question. At the end of a run, as you know, the pulse continues high depending on intensity, peaks then comes down, first slowly and then rapidly. It is actually hard to catch the pulse right at 120 because it's dropping so fast at that point. Reindell, Gerschler et all point to a range of 120 to 130, where you state 120. Why not 120 to 130?

This is related to my own question. I averaged 183 for the last 8k of a 10k a few months ago, so 120 is quite low for me. Also I noticed the difficult time after a run is when the heart rate is peaking, and then starting to drop, but when it is falling fast then there is plenty of energy. Thus, since most of the pressure is gone by that point, why not start again at 140?

Besides that, I want to note that Gerschler trained Roger Moens with repetition training with long recoveries, which is also common today with 800 meter runners. Do also use repetition training like this. I'm just curious and still like your method. Best regards

Hello dunes runner! I just love running and my coaching. And I love to help runners of different levels to find out

their best training. Well…..Gerschler and his companion Dr Reindel found in scientific experiments ( I think it was 4000 runners) that the most important part of the interval training was the recovery! They found out that the heart needed recovery back to 120 bpm ( they also mentioned 130 as you say) after a top of 180 bpm to get the very best stroke volume and to grow stronger. I took this knowledge further and in my system this top of 180 bpm ( or 90% of MHR) is the target when running LT- intervals and then when it comes to maxVO2-intervals at 5 k race pace , I just let the heartrate go up to 190-195 bpm ( 95-97% of MHR for a runner with 200 bpm MHR) and down back to 120 bpm when recover. One thing that struck me now( I have thought about it before also) is that Gerschler´s runners in fact mostly ran their LT -pace in their intervals! That explains why it was possible for them to run 100-200 x 100m-200m reps at that pace.So , why not start again at 140 bpm ? They found out that the heart needed longer rest to get the very best effect on the heart.

I have seen in all runners I have coached, and myself, that in an interval of 20 x 400m at individual 5 k race pace the heart will need about 45 - 90 sec recovery to come back to 120 bpm.

I never find it difficult myself to manually count my heartbeats to 20 beats in 10 sec = 120 bpm, but a heart monitor is of course to prefer to easy see when back to 120 bpm. Most of my young top runners have a MHR about 200bpm and they just love this method to always get the perfect rest needed after every rep. And they are really fast in races.

When it comes to repetitions at 800-3000m race pace I use a mix between Daniels and the great coach Franz Stampfl with his "Staying power", and the runner use race pace with long recoveries back to 100 bpm or less ( 50% or less) because when running repetitions the main purpose is to run race pace relaxed and the recovery then needs to be longer than when running maxVO2 intervals at 5 k race pace. Hope this fully was explained to you or you just can ask again . Cheers!

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

So , why not start again at 140 bpm ? They found out that the heart needed longer rest to get the very best effect on the heart.

Yes, I have articles of their studies. However, I'm not sure they ever compared with 140.

I never find it difficult myself to manually count my heartbeats to 20 beats in 10 sec = 120 bpm, but a heart monitor is of course to prefer to easy see when back to 120 bpm.

I do use a heart rate monitor and have a nice readout. My max heart rate is right around 200 bpm.

[quote]When it comes to repetitions at 800-3000m race pace I use a mix between Daniels and the great coach Franz Stampfl with his "Staying power", and the runner use race pace with long recoveries back to 100 bpm or less

Aha, Ralph Doubell. I have Brian Hewson's book somewhere in a box.

Thank you for the explanations. : )

2:19 or bust! I plan on following this thread too as I have a similar goal for CIM. Good luck bud and stay healthy!

Just a question to you dunes runner, ...I got the impression that you are same age as me (60) or more, and still you have

MHR of 200 ? Must be very rare I think?

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Just a question to you dunes runner, ...I got the impression that you are same age as me (60) or more, and still you have

MHR of 200 ? Must be very rare I think?

I'm in my 70's actually, though I keep it a secret. : )) The cheap Nashbar (bicycle) heart rate monitor I had a few decades ago gave me a max heart rate of 174, many times at the max, and I used it quite a bit. However, the technology was not very good.

Last fall I got a Garmin chest strap which showed much higher rates, so I sent it back, thinking something was wrong. Then later I ordered another one and the same thing happened, so it was probably the cheap Nashbar monitor that was off. The Garmin appears to be more reliable and is much easier to read, so I think it must be the one that is accurate.

My heart rate range was probably the same the whole time, as changing that much would seem to be quite unusual. I've always kept exercising and training through the years and do my best to keep healthy, which is very important to me.

Very interesting dunes runner. Then you can use the ratio up to 180 when running LT-intervals and 190-195 when running maxVO2 -intervals and wait easy walking between until pulse is back to 120 bpm ( or 130 if you prefer) . Thanks and good luck with your training. -: ))

- COACH J.S -

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Then you can use the ratio up to 180 when running LT-intervals and 190-195 when running maxVO2 -intervals and wait easy walking between until pulse is back to 120 bpm ( or 130 if you prefer) .

Coach JS, thank you for being so positive and sharing your ideas.

If I understand correctly, maxVO2 is 5k pace, LT-intervals are half-marathon pace, both recovering to 120bpm, best aerobic power LSD is 70-70% max, and 800 race pace training goes to max with recovery less than 100 bpm. This brings up more questions. : ))

I can see reaching 180 eventually with LT-interval pace, and recovering below 120 within 90 seconds.

However, I doubt being able to reach 190-195 in 60s at 5k race pace, unless maybe I did 40 of them with very short rests and did the last few of them very hard. Is that what would be expected with maxVO2? In that case, reaching 190-195, I think the pulse would not return to under 120 in less than 90 seconds - but would that really matter? I haven't tested this, but think that would not happen - maybe I would need to test this first. Maybe I'm rambling too much. I should probably test these first for a month or two, and then report back with questions.

When I did 40x60s at 5k pace with 30s rest a few years ago, my heart rate only got up to 85% at the highest. I will need to test that in the present to see what happens now. Best regards

Hello again dunes runner! ))

In fact you don`t have to bother how high your pulse will reach when running 20 x 400m or 20 x 60 sec . It`s not the main thing with maxVO2 intervals when you run them at 5 k race pace. The main thing is to teach your body to be more energy effective at 5 k race pace ! When you repeat this workout mostly once per week the body will get more energy saving at the same pace . Then when you see that the rest time between the reps at same 5 k pace down to 120 bpm will reduce it`s time to increase the 5 k pace with 1 sec / 400m . This is a very smart way to actually see improvement in training . I use to call this part of my system " The rubber band effect" )) Good luck now, and you are always welcome to ask questions or show your training progression.

- COACH J.S -