Acl30 wrote:
Female looking genitalia? So what if I had my penis surgically removed and my testicles placed inside my abdomen and wore dresses, could I compete in female sports? No, because I am genetically a male. He is also a male, is penis just never formed and his balls never dropped. That is why he is still running high school times.
I see you are a medical expert. Perhaps you want to give the IAAF a ring and help them do their gender testing.
2 impressions wrote:
catch up.. wrote:Here's the video of the 1500m (year is mislabelled). You have to feel sorry for the second placed athlete.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EszpoGf2Nkw1) Get rid of the idiots who let a motorcycle on the track.
2) Semenya is a man.
Women should be more proactive, and NOT shake his hand.
Agree w most of this, except the motorcycle -- it was the only thing that could keep up with Semenya.
As for other athletes not shaking Semenya's hand, it seemed that Dominique Scott (2nd in the 1500m) was making a point of that -- stayed close to the finish line and completely turned toward the other approaching finishers, greeting them. Pretty much the only way to remain on the track and keep one's back to Semenya, which is what she did, at least through the duration of the video.
catch up.. wrote:
Here's the video of the 1500m (year is mislabelled). You have to feel sorry for the second placed athlete.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EszpoGf2Nkw
That was almost embarrassing to watch.
The sad thing is if s/he smashes the opposition and records at the Olympics this will be the top story the main stream media will concentrate on which will make T&F a joke and detract from other worthwhile performances. Then if you throw in a few PED busts T&F will become an even bigger joke.
lets just stand back and watch the burning ship go down, and be smashed by a hurricane, and get pulled into the deepest f u c k i n g trench on earth. Track & Field has put cheaters into power, had no balls when it comes to making tough decisions. There would be more honor in it if they fessed up to the cheating scandals that have dominated the entire professional realm for years. And this is one of them. Men masquerading as women in order to cheat real women out of medals, victories, money and medals is nothing new. The restrictions should be just that: strict! Caster Semenya is one more self entitled child involved in the big joke that is what our sport has become. Justin Gatlin's running fast times again? Great lets make him the new face! Makloufi blows everyone away at the Olympics coming out of nowhere acting like a hooligan and trained by the shadiest coach in track? Let's celebrate!!! Russian doping scandal?? NO WAY! Jamaican doping scandal? Say it aint so!
Professional track already doesnt get TV airplay because it brings in shit money. Runnerspace and flotrack are barely serviceable viewing options. If the athletes boycotted this circus it would be over.
WAF Joke wrote:
The sad thing is if s/he smashes the opposition and records at the Olympics this will be the top story the main stream media will concentrate on which will make T&F a joke and detract from other worthwhile performances. Then if you throw in a few PED busts T&F will become an even bigger joke.
Whoah there! You just said T&F would get some extra media attention, right? That means the IAAF gets paid MORE, not less at the end of the Rio dopefest.
The right people make money. Does he/she have a Nike contract yet? It's perfect.
Freak. Show.
I can't wait.
Thanks for the sarcasm instead of answering my question. My point was genotypically he is a male. What do all males have in common? A Y chromosome, if he has one he is a male. Are there any males without a Y chromosome? No. He also has testes, so he has male gonads. The only thing about him that is female is his external genitalia, or phenotype. You should know that gonadal sex and sexual phenotypes in males and females are produced by separate developmental pathways, I would guess that he has a mutation on his x chromosome that allowed him to develop female external genitalia instead of male genitalia. Also a side note, he is married to a woman, so on top of having a male genotype, male gonads, his brain is also programmed like a males. So, back to my original point, if you were to remove a males external genitalia (penis) and raise him as a girl, should he be allowed to compete as a female, Even though he gentoypically is a male and has male gonads?
Exactly! This should never have been allowed in the first place on the professional circuit.
Excellent summary.
First of all, everyone who insults Semenya by calling her a man, or "disgusting", or mocks her for her sexuality, which she clearly didn't chose, doesn't just act childishly (or worse), they also perpetuate the sentiment amongst many that hers is a gender rights or LGBT rights issue, and that a sport who wouldn't let her compete is backwards, homophobic, or both.
Also, sports is inherently about "advantageous genes", so if Semenya is to be disqualified from competing against women, the argument has to be a bit more sophisticated. If she was the only elite runner, it would be hard to argue that her extremely high testosterone levels are the main factors for her athletic success - after all, at the top end of any reasonably popular sport, you are bound to find genetic outliers. Many top basketball players are extremely tall - and yet, a 7'6" player gets applauded, not disqualified, despite his obvious genetic advantage over a 5'10" player.
However, the appearance of Dutee Chand and other hyperandrogenic athletes alongside Semenya (and a litany of doping cases) does indicate that there is a particular advantage to having very high testosterone levels, to the point where it distorts the competition. The question then becomes whether they are simply the 5-sigma outliers in a continuous distribution, or if there is some clear discontinuity that would allow one to draw a sharp line and establish a better distinction between two categories of athletes. After all, for every 7'6" player, there are several 7'4" players, and many 7'3" players that can compete fairly. Is that true when it comes to androgenic females? These are the questions that should be answered, but as long as both sides make this a fight about gender identity, it's not going to get us anywhere.
Clearly, the fact that sport has for centuries been divided into "male" and "female" doesn't help, when people start questioning Semenya's gender because of her testosterone levels. There is no question that she is female, the question has to be whether there should be some different set of biological criteria that can more fairly discriminate between two bimodal distributions.
Querfeldein wrote:
Clearly, the fact that sport has for centuries been divided into "male" and "female" doesn't help
Yes. The solution is to have two categories: "female" and "other".
Querfeldein wrote:
There is no question that she is female,
There is no question that there are people, many of them experts in their field, who question whether she is female. So for you to say "There is no question that she is female" is, without question, the most ridiculous statement made on this thread.
Querfeldein wrote:
as long as both sides make this a fight about gender identity, it's not going to get us anywhere.
Are you an idiot?, despite the BS you've written that is exactly what it's about. In the case of Semenya it's about a person with male characteristics, visible and not so visible, running against females, what about that don't you understand?
"the argument has to be a bit more sophisticated" - No it doesn't.
There is a question. wrote:
Querfeldein wrote:There is no question that she is female,
There is no question that there are people, many of them experts in their field, who question whether she is female. So for you to say "There is no question that she is female" is, without question, the most ridiculous statement made on this thread.
questions about caster semenya's gender
https://www.google.com/search?as_q=questions+about+caster+semenya%27s+gender&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=The best suggestion so far: You cannot compete in women's athletics unless you have ALL, by birth, the internal bits to get pregnant and give birth.
Querfeldein wrote:
The question then becomes whether they are simply the 5-sigma outliers in a continuous distribution, or if there is some clear discontinuity that would allow one to draw a sharp line and establish a better distinction between two categories of athletes.
There is no continuous distribution and Caster is an extreme outlier
The Regulations are based on the strong scientific consensus that the clear sex difference in sports performance is mainly due to the marked difference in male and female testosterone levels (normal female range of serum testosterone being approximately 0.1 – 2.8 nmol/L; normal male range, above 10.5 nmol/L). Due to abnormal adrenal or gonadal function, certain females have serum testosterone levels of 10 nmol/L or more. The Regulations aim to preserve fair competition by requiring such athletes either to show that they are androgen-resistant (and so derive no advantage from their elevated levels of testosterone) or else to bring those levels down below 10 nmol/L.
s.
http://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/hyperandrogenism-regulations-cas-dutee-chandIsaacSteinberg wrote:
libs hate real women wrote:Wrong.
If a man identifes as a woman and has taken testosterone lowering meds for a year he can run in a women's race. Doesn't matter if his D and balls slap around. Any male runner, e.g. Mo Farah, can decide to run as a female.
Bolt should get a sex change and be the first "female" to go sub 10.
Why is this so hard to get? Bolt wouldn't need a sex change. He can just say he feels like a woman and take testosterone lowering meds for a year and then compete as a female.
A MAN DOESN'T NEED A SEX CHANGE TO COMPETE AS A WOMAN.
Querfeldein wrote:
Also, sports is inherently about "advantageous genes"
Totally wrong. The female category is for those who LACK certain advantageous genes.
Yes, in any question of "do they have an advantage?" OF COURSE THEY DO. Women are the disadvantaged in any of these scenarios which is why universally across the board men dominate women. Any talented state level high school boy can break the womens world records. You need no more evidence than that. The womens world records get broken hundreds of times every year by males. This isnt as if people like Caster are being told "oh you cant join our club, we dont like you". I'm sorry but getting to be a professional athlete and make a living doing it is not a right. If you want to be a runway model and you think you look good and maybe you've done some modelling, but youre not 5'10 or taller you are OUT. You have NO chance. Why? Because them's the rules.
If you want to compete in womens sports and you are not a woman, a fully biological woman, then you pose a threat to the integrity of the entire practice. Chemically, biologically, everything about Caster is male except her external genitalia. Internally she is almost all male. So yes, this is the equivalent of the boy sneaking into a girls race, killing them all, then flexing and acting like a hooligan about it. What a disgrace. And the reason this does not post a threat if this were reversed is because males ARE the advantaged, so this poses no threat in reverse. It does when we talk about women because if a woman wanted to get to the place chemically where Caster is she would have to take illegal drugs and even then it would not put her on the same playing field because she'd be fighting her own body's mechanics, unlike Caster.
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Is this a joke? She actually has pecs-no tits. She's wearing a MENS singlet with no sports bra. This is f*cked for any WOman competing against her.
Querfeldein wrote:
Verbose BS at its worst (or should that be best?).