Craig Virgin and Fam have interesting comments on Rupp and NOPe

Preceded by an American record.

The Rocket... wrote:

agip wrote:

put another way, per daniels, tempo pace for Rupp is 4:32/mile. So he ran 4 x 4 minute pieces at around 12 seconds faster than tempo pace. with much rest. then a fast one.

I'm not that talented, I run half the miles as rupp, and I could do that without much stress.

No you couldn't.

Do it. Film it. Post it.

ack.

seriously though - have you ever done mile repeats at 10k pace?

I am not sure what to think about Rupp and his records. What I do know is that I once idolized Virgin until I actually met and talked to him.

He seemed like one of the most insecure people I have ever met. When Derrick (and then Verzbicas) were gunning for his records, he continually talked about himself over and over again while being adamant that "they're on a slightly different course anyway, so it shouldn't count."

I know there in nothing I can say that's going to shut up the naysayers and I’m not going to try mainly because I don't have the time or energy and it won’t work anyway. I have written and spoken quite a bit about this topic and my purpose for continuing to jump in on it is for no other reason than I can’t resist the urge defend what I believe is right. Also, I personally know what it takes to success at anything and I hate seeing someone’s achievements discounted based on a lack of knowledge and/or lies.

I probably know more about NOP, Rupp and AlSal 'of toady' than Fam and Virgin and I don't know much. There are at least 2 dozen people, coaches, athletes, trainers and doctors who know far more than me Fam and Virgin combined and so far, no one has said anything to closely implicate Rupp of doping and without an NDA, that's nearly impossible in this day and age. Some of the people mentioned, Magness and the Gouchers know a lot more than any of us, and at most, they have implied and/or in so many words stated that AlSal in 'their opinion' has used the system to his advantage and perhaps they disagreed with his methods...that's all they know and that's all you are ever going get out of them because that's all there is. If there was more, a smoking gun per se, you would know by now. This is not like the U.S. Postal Cycling Team where people are being threatened to keep to keep their mouths shut. This is not meant to demean anyone, but I know the Gouchers perhaps justifiably so were or still are pissed at AlSal and perhaps justifiably, Magness is trying to make a name for himself. Undoubtedly, from both of those camps there will be drips and drabs of information that come out over time and possibly even a book one day, but all that is going to be said will simply expand on what has already been implied and/or in so many words stated. Btw, I will add that there are other people just as close to the heart of the matter as Magness and the Gouchers who have a different opinion. You can choose whichever opinion you want to lean towards, but they are the people that know. Btw, Rupp’s and AlSal’s home address, training venues, training methods, assistance coaches, trainers and doctors, etc., are well known among the people who need to know. An investigation would be quite easy; NOP is not nearly as mysterious as people think.

I will avoid a science discussion and simply state that having athletes take blood and breathing tests, finding deficiencies and using the approved process to prescribe medication...that's what AlSal has done...there is nothing mysterious in that. AlSal has not done anything that anyone else can't do and has not done anything that some of the other elite training groups don’t do. A few little known facts, only a couple of NOP athletes have ever been prescribed medicine; some of the ones who were did not benefit from it; Rupp’s has competed successfully without his medication and only uses it on an as needed basis; AlSal has gone out of his way to deal directly with USADA/WADA specifically on this issue to ensure compliance. As an elite athlete, personally I would enjoy knowing that a coach is doing everything possible ‘that’s legal’ and with my health in mind to help me achieve my goals.

Galen Rupp's breathing problems go back as far as his youth soccer days...this problem was not something invented to have him take medication to help him run faster. Using laymen's terms, the effects of breathing medication is a complicated discussion and I admit there is some gray area especially when you get into what, when, the dosage and who needs it. If you want take a deep dive on the subject, search on Steve Magness and read through some of his posts to get a student level understanding, doused with a bit of his opinions. Myself, I have listened to talks given by top level PhD types, USOC officials, etc., the people who wrote the books that Magness reads. Some of these are individuals who have absolutely no dog in the AlSal/Rupp discussion. The condensed layperson explanation is, in general breathing medication has little to no athletic performance benefit for a person without a breathing problem and for someone with a breathing problem, the benefit mainly lie in getting them to normal. In some cases, it actually has a negative affect and in the few cases where it has shown some degree of performance enhancing benefits, it is a poor choice for doping. Even when you go outside of the approved process, the type of medication, the dosage, when it has to be administered makes it unhealthy, unreliable and most important, detectable. (There are much better ways to dope.) The fact is, there is nothing in Rupp’s performances or post-race workouts that suggest anything except he is a talented athlete and is fit. In my mind, Rupp has not had one single off the chart performance. In his greatest race, he finished second; in fact, Rupp loses about 50% of races. If he is doping, he needs to get better at it. And some of the crap that has been stated like visits to an EPO specialist, taking a shot of adrenaline before a race, giving drugs to Mary Cain, etc., is so crazy that will not even get into it.

I am not trying to portray Fam and Virgin as bad guys, they have heard bits and pieces of information about NOP through the grapevine and they have some knowledge and personal experience with doping issues from their own careers and basically surmise Rupp must be doping. Obviously Virgin is no stranger to doping from his days at AW and the era he competed in and Fam has had his own issues with being prescribed breathing medication. No disrespect, but they both know just enough to be dangerous, but they really don’t know anything for a fact except U.S. athletes are having performances better than they ever dreamed of and are slowly making their careers less relevant. Although you can’t take anything away from what an athlete accomplished in their area, but Fam and Virgin no longer appear on any of the U.S. performance lists and Adam’s name will probably will disappear in a year or 2….that has to suck.

1. Rupp's allergies are so bad that he sometimes requires a mask to filter dangerous pollens.

2. Rupp requires thyroid medication.

3. Rupp ran an American Record (after chasing the World Record) and 15 min later ran an amazing workout.

4. Farah moved from a World Champs/Olympic finalist/also ran, to a nearly unbeatable double champion.

5. Salazar worked with Slaney and Armstrong.

Just because he studied EPO doesn't mean he encourages the use of synthetic EPO. Sure we can't say with certainty much of anything on these matters, but for a guy who's job is it to maximize performance it makes sense to understand EPO's role in the body. Remember EPO does occur naturally and if you can train in a way (naturally) that increases it that just seems like smart training. Same way that doing hill repeats create physiological changes that help you run faster. If you could drive your car to do hill repeats, and other people lived in flat areas or didn't have a car to get to hills, would you not do them? Would you say it's not fair because not everyone has the same access to hills?

The live high/train low philosophy is based on maximizing performance along these lines. Sure not everyone gets to do it, and not everyone gets to be born in an area where they can play endless hours of basketball on courts all summer long or in the altitude of kenya or colorado.

It's still possible that Dr. Gunderson is an excellent resource with much knowledge of how to maximise the natural and very legal training methods.

It may be exciting to just assume there is a massive dark conspiracy, but if you are wrong and have no real knowledge, you are defaming people and dragging the sport down.

Never 15 minutes after a 2 mile pr. Then finish with one at 2mile pace.

I only know how difficult this workout must be because mile repeats at10k pace is difficult by itself.

stress reliever wrote:

Preceded by an American record.

People need to stop emphasizing how fast the race was when speaking about how difficult Rupp's workout was. It was a RACE. Races are all-out regardless of what the finishing time may be. Fatigue is a product of effort, not speed. If anything, the fact that he got the American Record is an indication that he was fairly rested coming into it.

And trying to find your "equivalent times" from Rupp's workout is a fine way to help you understand it a bit better - but stop acting like it's a precise parallel! Rupp is training at a higher level than anyone on these boards and one of the perks of that is being able train harder.

I, for one, was VERY pleased to see Rupp virtually exhausted after his AR 2 miler. He had to sit down. He didn't run a 12:37 5000 smiling through the finish line, grabbing a bouquet, and begin a victory lap and high 5ing everyone. He didn't blow through a 1500 at 3:26 and do the same. It appeared to be an all out, honest, and in my opinion, PED-free performance by a top notch athlete who is operating at his limits. I hope he doesn't break and he and Salazar back off for a little while after his AR mile attempt.

Okay can we all understand and the actual workout and quit making up false facts:

2 mile 8:07

15 min rest

1600 4:21

3 min rest

1600 4:20

2:45 rest

1600 4:20

3:00 rest

1600 4:16

4 min rest

Mile 4:01

I sat and hit the split watch during the live feed.

I don't mean the slightest offense, and you surely ran times vastly faster than I ever ran (eons ago), but to infer from the fact that you and runners you knew could not have done an equivalent workout to the conclusion that Rupp must be doping--for that is indeed your conclusion--is a bit insane. Rupp has, after ten years of intense, uninterrupted training, training at a higher level and with greater intensity than perhaps any other American, a capacity, that mere mortals cannot truly dream of. I don't mean this to be hagiographical, but if you go through all the Flotrack interviews with Salazar and Ritz, and piece together the kind of workouts Rupp has been doing, they are phenomenal, and they have surely produced a remarkable recovery rate, which is what Rupp's workout turned on.

In_Ithaca wrote:

Disclaimer: Havent read through the whole thread.

Those of you that are saying, this isn't that hard of a workout compared to his fitness. Anybody could do this if you scaled it to their prs... etc.

Just want to say, nah man. After a 3k pr, no chance I, or runners i knew, could of done the equivalent workout. This stuff is crazy. If you don't think they are up to something beyond clean living and hard work youre nuts.

That being said, its sure exciting. Made me come back to the forums after who knows how long away.

It's surprising to me that no one has mentioned the workout Rupp did with Levins following the 5000 a few weeks ago. There, Levins was clearly the stronger runner and able to do more than Rupp. What--he wasn't doping then but is now??????

That was thoroughly discussed a few weeks ago.

Montesquieu wrote:

It's surprising to me that no one has mentioned the workout Rupp did with Levins following the 5000 a few weeks ago. There, Levins was clearly the stronger runner and able to do more than Rupp. What--he wasn't doping then but is now??????

Yeah but that's because Cam faded the last 1500 meters and didn't push all the way to the line like Rupp. But yes that was insane too.

Montesquieu wrote:

I don't mean the slightest offense, and you surely ran times vastly faster than I ever ran (eons ago), but to infer from the fact that you and runners you knew could not have done an equivalent workout to the conclusion that Rupp must be doping--for that is indeed your conclusion--is a bit insane.

Yo dude, I don't think whatever times I ran make me more qualified to talk about this kind of stuff. Honestly, I've been so far out of the sport for so long that my opinion shouldn't carry much weight. I was just addressing the early part of the thread where a lot of people were trying to say how "doable" this is. I'll stick by my guns about how ridiculous the workout is. I'll also agree with you that these guys are on a DIFFERENT LEVEL...

If he had a moroccan surname yall would be saying he was doped 100% of the time.

Either way, from what i can remember, this is what these boards are all about. Unsubstantiated rumors, bold claims and good times. These guys are public figures, they're paid to put up with this kind of bs. Is he doped like the dudes in the 90s, probably not. As I said before, do i think they're running like this entirely off of clean living and hard work. Nope. Just one guys opinion based on zero proof. Well besides stuff i've heard from people i trust and something a friend of a friends uncle once told me.

ps the BU track is unreal fast. I remember feeling it was like cheating all on its own.

pps. I think the guys he's racing against in europe are equally as doped. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

trackcoach wrote:

Obviously Virgin is no stranger to doping from his days at AW and the era he competed in and Fam has had his own issues with being prescribed breathing medication. No disrespect, but they both know just enough to be dangerous.k.

Actually you're the one who knows enough to be dangerous. Since the AW doping program didn't start until after Virgin left AW how was he implicated? Talk about ignorant smears. I doubt that Virgin ever heard rumors until the 1984 USOC catch and release coverup.

Magness just posted the following on FB:

Steve Magness

"This is the Golden Age of fraud, an era of general willingness to ignore and justify the wrongdoings of the rich and powerful , which makes every lie bigger and widens its destructive path."

Interesting quote from the book Wheelmen

Again, Magness is trying to sell a book. Apparently he doesn't cover the subject in the book. I wish the nay-sayers in this saga were other than Virgin, Fam, and Magness. Those guys could be on Dr. Phil.

dunce cap wrote:

trackcoach wrote:

Obviously Virgin is no stranger to doping from his days at AW and the era he competed in and Fam has had his own issues with being prescribed breathing medication. No disrespect, but they both know just enough to be dangerous.k.

Actually you're the one who knows enough to be dangerous. Since the AW doping program didn't start until after Virgin left AW how was he implicated? Talk about ignorant smears. I doubt that Virgin ever heard rumors until the 1984 USOC catch and release coverup.

I was not insinuating Virgin ever doped, in fact I highly doubt he did. I was stating that doping is something he's familiar with through associations and being a part of a certain era.