Dominguez detained in doping investigation

Why not just run faster without the drugs? You know, train better?

This has to hold true at any level, it's not rocket science.

Pace = stride rate x stride length x endurance.

Current World Records will be obliterated with or without so called performance enhancing drugs.

ventolin^3 wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Ha, Ha.

Ventolin^3 is really actually arguing that watching races on TV makes him an expert. I'm sure I watch a lot more football than Bill Belichick. After all I have Sunday Ticket and he is on the sidelines when the games are on.

no

idiot

watching lot more quality races than most any one here

there are many guys here who have probably seen every play off game in nfl in past 20y

how many have seen virtually every single golden league/diamond league meet here since inception in '90s ?

you can add most of top quality euro meets prior to golden league as well back to '80s on satellite & before then whatever was on terrestial tv back in '70s

it's a different ballpark of viewing...

Ha, ha.

So I was right. You are claiming expertise because you watch the races on TV. Even more expertise than a coach. Ha. Ha. Okay.

Or is he a genius troll? If so I take my hat off to him.

J.O. wrote:

I know more about pro cycling than you will ever know.

How would you ever know that?

Do you really think that there is no increase in performance as your hematocrit rises, up to a point?

You're not that oddball from Richmond are you?

If your body needed more RBC's it would produce more wouldn't it?

You don't need more RBC's to run or cycle faster, you need to train and race better.

The problem with Pro cycling is that it is just too hard, riders get huge swings in morale and they have always used drugs to prop up their egos.

If I'm an oddball it's because I don't have this sheep like mentality that others have. When I was biker, there were all sorts of ridiculous old wives tales which had been around for ages. The best rider around, had a much more sane attitude, that was Paul Curran. He had his head on straight.

find me an epo +ve who didn't have an improvement

who would tell about it?

this is a classic example of survivorship bias.

///Cicero, writing in the 1st century BC, tells of how a friend of Diagoras tried to convince him of the existence of the gods, by pointing out how many votive pictures tell about people being saved from storms at sea by "dint of vows to the gods", to which Diagoras replied that "there are nowhere any pictures of those who have been shipwrecked and drowned at sea." And Cicero goes on to give another example, where Diagoras was on a ship in hard weather, and the crew thought that they had brought it on themselves by taking this ungodly man onboard. He then wondered if the other boats out in the same storm also had a Diagoras onboard.///

@ Cabral

Comparing cross country to track/indoor is comparing apples with oranges.

Certainly the World cross country championships in Ostende/Belgium where you could hardly run because of the mud and the freezing cold and wind.

In cross country, track times, don't say everything (for example Lebid. A 29.00(10km) guy can beat a 28.00 easily.

Pleaseeeee, A small group of riders tried to do the Tour de France in 2007 without doping. Did you see the results?

http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/nondoping-cyclists-finish-tour-de-france,2268/

Non-Doping Cyclists Finish Tour De France

August 30, 2007 |

02.12.09 PARIS—A small but enthusiastic crowd of several dozen was on hand at the Tour de France's finish line on the Avenue des Champs-Élysées Tuesday to applaud the efforts of the 28 cyclists who completed the grueling 20-stage, 2,208.3-mile race without the aid of performance-enhancing drugs.

Great Britain's Bradley Wiggins finished the final 56km time trial in a respectable and drug-free 4 hours and 38 minutes.Finland's Piet Kvistik, a domestique with the Crédit Mondial team, was this year's highest-finishing non-doping rider (142nd overall). Kvistik claimed the maillot propre, the blue jersey worn by the highest-placed "clean" rider, on the ninth stage of the race when the six riders who had previously worn it tested positive for EPO, elevated levels of testosterone, and blood-packing.

"This is a very, very proud day for me," said the 115-pound Kvistik, who lost 45% of his body mass during the event, toppled from his saddle moments after finishing, and had to be administered oxygen, fed intravenously, and injected with adrenaline by attending medical personnel. "They say it is physically impossible to ride all of the Tour without drugs, but we prove them wrong this day."

"What day is it, anyway?" asked Kvistik, his eyes rolling wildly in his head. "I can no longer tell."

Kvistik's overall time for the Tour was 571 hours, 22 minutes, and 33 seconds, beating by over an hour the previous record for a non-enhanced rider, set by Albrect Påart during 1923's infamous ether-and-morphine-shortened race. Kvistik finished a mere 480 hours behind Alberto Contador, the overall winner, making 2007's margin between doping and non-doping riders the closest in history.

"It became most difficult for us on the 7th stage, which was almost 200 kilometers and the first stage through the mountains," Kvistik said while accepting the non-doping victor's 100-franc check from his stretcher. "Not only did the excruciating pain and weakness in my legs make it difficult to walk my bike on the steeper stretches, it was mentally very hard to know that half the other clean riders were dead or dying. Also, the other 141 riders finished the Tour in Paris that morning, which made it all that much harder."

"It's rather a shame that the Tour's 'clean' riders, or 'lanternes naturelles' as the fans call them, receive so little attention, for their monumental achievement," said cycling commentator Phil Liggett, reporting on the non-doping riders' finish for Versus-2, the little-sister network to Versus, who carried the main Tour de France coverage. "It's nearly impossible to compete in the full Tour while shot full of human growth hormone, erythropoietin, testosterone, glucocorticosteroids, synthetic testosterone, anabolic steroids, horse testosterone, amphetamines, and one's own pre-packed oxygen-rich red blood cells. To do it on water and bananas is almost heroic, no matter what one's time is."

While Kvistik's achievement is being celebrated by cycling insiders, critics of the Tour de France maintain that not enough is being done to combat the use of performance-enhancing substances in cycling's premier event.

"Nonsense—pure nonsense," said Tour general director Christian Prudhomme, who was vacationing in Switzerland as Kvistik crossed the finish line. "We have done everything we could imagine, both in terms of prize money and other incentives, to promote riders who compete without pharmaceutical aid. But we simply do not have the resources, nor the viewers the interest, to televise the entire two months it takes for a normal, unadulterated human to circumnavigate an entire nation on a bicycle."

Kvistik remains in critical condition at the Hôpital Neuilly-sur-Seine, where he was placed in a medically induced coma to aid his recovery from exhaustion, malnutrition, and loss of bone density. Attending physicians say he is not expected to return to cycling.

ventolin^3 wrote:

find me an epo +ve who didn't have an improvement

Bouchra Ghezielle (FRA)

4:01.28 PB from 2005

Was disqualified for testing positive for EPO in the final of the 1500m at the 2008 World Indoor Championships. Ghezielle's result, prior to being removed from the records, was 4:08.66, was despite excellent pacing by the front running Russian for a low 4:00 result, with 400m splits of 63.26, 2:07.89 (64.63), and 3:11.53 (63.64).

Viktor Burayev (RUS)

1:18:06 PB in 2001

1:19:27 in 2008 before positive test in late 08. At the Race Walking Cup where he tested positive, he was the 24th across the line, more than four minutes behind the winner and four minutes outside his lifetime best from 2001.

Abdelkader Hachlaf (MAR)

3:33.59 PB in 2001

Ran 3:53.27 to finish fifth in the 1500m final at the 2004 World Indoor Championships (fourth after Michael East's DQ) before he was disqualified for EPO use.

Antonio Pettigrew (USA)

Ran 44.27 in 1989, before availability of synthetic EPO. LIfetime best after synthetic EPO's availability was 44.21 (1999).

Fernando Silva (POR)

Improved 5000m best from 13:57.42 (2004) to 13:54.60 (2006) before testing positive for EPO at the 2006 European Cross Country Championships.

If you don't tolerate idiots, how can you look at yourself in the mirror every morning ?

Viktor wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

find me an epo +ve who didn't have an improvement

Fernando Silva (POR)

Improved 5000m best from 13:57.42 (2004) to 13:54.60 (2006) before testing positive for EPO at the 2006 European Cross Country Championships.

Didn´t improve ? You don´t know what you are talk about. Before take EPO he was a 14:40 runner.

After win twice the national cross champ Fernando was JUST second in the 2006 European cross country behind Mo Farah but winning over Sergey Lebid for example.

The fact that almost didn´t improve on track it´s because he didn´t care about track and during the summer track season he didn´t took EPO and always slow down.

After he tests positive, he was never been the same good runner he was before the positive test.

Anyhow he did confess that he took EPO for the last years before the positive test and did many tests many times after the runs but the test did negative all the time. The positive test was done by surprise at his home.

This shows someone can dope with EPO and the drug able to train hard and improve your potential but in the day of the competition tests negative.

Now think about undetect self blood doping. Everyone can take with no problem as long as aren´t caught with frized blood or during the process of take.

Viktor wrote:Antonio Pettigrew (USA)

Ran 44.27 in 1989, before availability of synthetic EPO. LIfetime best after synthetic EPO's availability was 44.21 (1999)

you realise pettigrew was approaching 32 when he ran 44.21 when on epo ???

in terms of 400m running he was ancient & without it woud have been lucky to break 45s at the time, as is usual for a 30++ sprinter

Mr. Obvious wrote:Ha, ha.So I was right. You are claiming expertise because you watch the races on TV. Even more expertise than a coach. Ha. Ha. Okay.

moron

you obviously can't read

tell me which coach here or anywhere has seen all of these races as a sample :

- the big '72/'74 races munich/new zealand

- ovett beating rono over 2 miles for wr in '78

- wessinhage destroying yifter over 5k in '79, showing that yifter's legendary kick had no chance against a top 1500 guy in a slow race - a lesson kennster never learnt against hicham in '04 & bernie in '06

- ovett being hunted down by the panzer division of wessinghage & hudak but just holding onto a 3'31.36 wr with all 3 breaking 3'32 & 3 fastest times ever

- all coe/ovett/cram's wrs & most of their near misses

- cruz 1'41.77 when he shouda packed in the season 3/52 before after all his exertions - he shoud barely have been able to break 1'44 by then

- maree 3'29.77 when if rested & hadn't chased aouita in 3'33 2/7 before couda probably gone 3'29-flat

- most of aouita's big races mid-'80's

i'm not going to bother with ones post-'90 to today

( every <26'55 except one & of the 90 runs <12'55, i've seen all but about 10, the only one of note being kennster desperately holding on over songok in a 12'48 ( from race report ) ) but just a coupla my faves :

- hicham running 7'23 off a pedestrian 1st k when it looked like he woud be lucky to run 7'27 after but ran a superhuman last 2k - komen's record wouda gone off a proper 1st km

- hicham splitting 2'44 in rieti when at that point he looked so strong that his boast of running 3'24 was on, but faded badly in stretch but still ran 3'26.8 !!!

when a coach has seen everyone of these for a start, i'll start thinking of him as a comparable judge of elite horseflesh

survivorship bias wrote:

find me an epo +ve who didn't have an improvement

who would tell about it?

this is a classic example of survivorship bias

nonsense

a +ve epo test is just that - it tells us the athlete was likely taking epo

it tells us nothing about what their performance was at the time or their progression to that point

for that you have to check their stats & with caveats after checking those, there aren't any who didn't improve on epo

HAHAHAHA!!!

This is getting more and more hilarious for every post! Ventolin thinks he knows more about running than everybody else because he thinks he has watched more TV than everybody else!

Sorry, but this time you went too far and showed that you´re nothing but a brilliant troller. I hope nobody is stupid enough to respond to your posts from now on.

she had her peak year in '05 with 4'01 & 4'02 for wc bronze

by '06 she had already drifted out to 4'04 & she has no performances at all for '07 !!

with that progression & lack of racing in '07 she had almost certainly drifted out to 4'05++ & probably nearer 4'10, so to run 4'08i, which is probably worth 4'06 outdoors was a big improvement on what was expected

& he set that 1"18'06 as usual at russian champs meet in adler - a meet where no one ever gets dq'ed for lifting - any judge who is stoopid enough to do so woud be shot

he was probably semi-running most of that race

name his best walk outside of russia

another guy who was slowing down after peak year of 3'33 in '01

he was down to 3'35 by '03 & probably drifting out towards 3'40 by '04 with that progression

a 5th place in a global final in a tactical race which he ran 3'53.3 when gold was won in only 3'52.3 & bronze in 3'52.9 showed he was competitive with korir (1st) who had run 3'30 previous year & ivan (2nd ) who ran 3'30 later in '04

you have got to have been in <<3'35 shape to have run them close & remember he was drifting out to 3'35+ the previous year

psychopath alert wrote:HAHAHAHA!!!

This is getting more and more hilarious for every post! Ventolin thinks he knows more about running than everybody else because he thinks he has watched more TV than everybody else!

eh ??

what "think" moron - i saw them

i'd reckon there are only 2 or 3 other guys here who have seen all those & i may be overestimating

you are clearly an imbecile that believes observing leads to no gain of knowledge, especially for one whose dayjob involves mostly observation

Sorry, but this time you went too far and showed that you´re nothing but a brilliant troller. I hope nobody is stupid enough to respond to your posts from now on.

idiot

how many of those races you seen ?

If by your reckoning Cruz should barely have been able to break 1.44 but managed to run 1.41.77, does that not mean that your judgment and understanding is off? How did he run two seconds faster or is your knowledge incomplete. If you're going to start all your posts by calling people morons and idiots can I suggest not calling Bekele 'kennster'.Also, use some capital letters, it would make calling people idiots less ironic.

you clearly didn't watch his post season '84 or if you did you are clueless

he put in a herculean effort to win in 1'43.0 & most cases he wouda quit for the year then or at least take 2 or 3/52 off & have 1 more outing - finito

he instead embarked on an incredible run of 1'42s & then his 1'41, when he coud only possibly be running on fumes

any normal human woud have had difficulty cracking 1'44 by cologne & i myself watched it on tv expecting his schedule to catch up by then & expecting ~ 1'44

how he ran 1'41 that day is one of the biggest mysteries in the sport

you know where you can stuff your nickel'n'dime grammar policing...