To Hadd: malmo disagrees with you. Can you explain the disconnect?

Just read about Tinman's big workouts. Interesting to see that you have 7 -10 miles runs before the workout begins. I can do that! My problem is that when I work on speed I can get fast, but I lose endurance but when I work on endurance I become very slow. I even look very slow even when I am running "fast."

Tinman wrote:

[Good tips here.

It makes sense to me. The "skill" theory makes a lot of sense to me because I can't figure out exactly what my "problem" is. I just can't put it all together in training.

Any more advice particular to marathon training?

I am doing doubles several times during the week and longer runs on the weekend and trying to get my mileage higher.

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Doubles aren't necessarily the answer to running faster marathons. First step: add a mid-week medium-long run with some quality in it to your current schedule. What's quality? It depends upon what you need.

Do you lack "staying" power? If so, do more training at marathon pace or a tad slower, but for a long period of time. Example 3, building to 5 x 3 miles at Marathon pace with 3-minute recoveries? Or, run 90 minutes at 15 seconds per mile slower than your estimated marathon pace. Of course, warm up and cool down for both workouts.

In the marathon, you don't need to focus on training intensities below 10k pace, in my opinion. That doesn't mean you eliminate a 5k pace interval workout, for example, but certainly you limit the total amount of running you do at 5k or faster pace, for two reasons. First, you don't want "turn up" the metabolic thermostat. That is, you don't want train your body to burn carbohydrate fuel fast; otherwise you "bonk" about 17-21 miles into a marathon race. Second, transfer of training to racing is fairly specific. If you want to run 6 flat pace for a marathon, then you need to train within the 5:30 to 6:30 per mile range for you key workouts; if you expect training effects to transfer to successful racing results.

If you have further questions about marathon training, read the article I wrote on the subject at

.

Regards,

Tinman[/quote]

Obviously. However, it's also ludicrous to suggest that my argument is so reductionist.

Mostly true Tinman, BUT, Gaining power and endurance also requires skills aquisitions, you have to learn, through correct training how to recruit different muscle fiber in a more economical sequence. So that before those fibers are fatigued, your brain recruits a different set of fibers whilst the other fibers recover, and so and and so on.

Hadd wrote:

wellnow wrote:

You need to ability to run as economically as possible at every pace without your pace dropping.

If you read Daniels as you said elsewhere, you would know that marathon runners are more economical at M-pace than milers at M-pace.

He showed that milers become more economical as the pace approaches their mile race pace. Milers are more economical at race pace than they are when running slower. You cannot be as economical as possible at every pace.

If milers train to become marathon runners they will improve their economy at M-pace, but simultaneously reduce their economy at mile race pace.

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Well Hadd...... good luck finding a miler who can run a mile faster than Sammy Wanjiru, or a marathon runner who can do his endurance runs faster than Hicham El Gerrouj.

Hi, Morten. No problem, here is the answer to your question of why some runners with a low VO2max are very fast:

Thanks wellnow

It was in a kind of way already what I was thinking about -that the metabolic gains is just a little piece of the cake. Last winter another of my friends began sleeping with some sort of oxygen mask and even though his hematokrit (probably wrong spelled) went from 41 to 48 or something in a few months time he didn't notice any improvement in his running. He didn't feel any stronger during his long runs and tempo runs so instead he more or less decided to run harder and get better that way which meant that his pace got at least 10s pr km faster on the very long runs - but not much faster on the tempo runs. In my opinion your statement about believing in yourself and better results makes so much sense! His "VO2max" didn't increase at all but his confidence increased almost dramatically which in my opinion is the reason why his personal bests has been bettered this season.

Haile Gebrselassie is still one of the world's best marathoners because he really loves running. He doesn't wory about whether his body is too old for world records or people like Tinman says that his VO2max decreases so he can't maintain a certain speed for a certain amount of time - he just runs like he has done for almost 20 years!

wellnow wrote:

Hadd wrote:

[quote]wellnow wrote:

You need to ability to run as economically as possible at every pace without your pace dropping.

If you read Daniels as you said elsewhere, you would know that marathon runners are more economical at M-pace than milers at M-pace.

He showed that milers become more economical as the pace approaches their mile race pace. Milers are more economical at race pace than they are when running slower. You cannot be as economical as possible at every pace.

If milers train to become marathon runners they will improve their economy at M-pace, but simultaneously reduce their economy at mile race pace.

*************************************************

Well Hadd...... good luck finding a miler who can run a mile faster than Sammy Wanjiru, or a marathon runner who can do his endurance runs faster than Hicham El Gerrouj.

Hadd didn't say, or even imply, that a marathoner like Wanjiru will beat a miler like El Gerrouj with proper mile training, or vice versa. He said that if you take Wanjiru and train him like a miler, he'll be more economical at mile pace. Likewise, if El Gerrouj trained for a marathon he'd become more economical at marathon pace.

Morten DK wrote:

In my opinion your statement about believing in yourself and better results makes so much sense! His "VO2max" didn't increase at all but his confidence increased almost dramatically which in my opinion is the reason why his personal bests has been bettered this season.

Haile Gebrselassie is still one of the world's best marathoners because he really loves running. He doesn't wory about whether his body is too old for world records or people like Tinman says that his VO2max decreases so he can't maintain a certain speed for a certain amount of time - he just runs like he has done for almost 20 years!

This is funny.

Numerous times I´ve went to the starting line with full of confidence and ending to numerous disappointments.

And by the way even Haile has slowed down, he just have moved to the marathon, a distance that he didn´t try at all in his prime.

According to wellnow though, his neuromuscular efficiency is way higher now, so that's all that matters. I bet he'd have no problem running a 7:25 3k, or 12:39 5k right now.

Added efficiency + easy reacquisition of a skill he still has = sub 12:30 5, correct wellnow?

Didn't he run a marathon i 2001 or 2003 or something? And of course confidence is not everything. It just happens that feeling better in training alone will give you better results in training. And knowing that you have prepared the best you can gives the same effect. In my opinion doping helps psychologically more than physiologically. If you know that you have an advantage against your opponents it will no matter what affect your racing.

And if Hailes VO2max decreases then his neuromuscular skills must increase because in my opinion he is still one of the worlds finest runners!

feeling better in training will make you feel better in racing

wellnow wrote:

... here is the answer to your question of why some runners with a low VO2max are very fast:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14915-a-short-heel-helps-runners-go-the-distance.htmlhttp://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/211/20/3266

From the linked website:

"In the study, heel length was measured as the average of the horizontal distance between the ankle bone and the Achilles tendon on the inside and outside of the leg. When this average was shorter, Scholz's model showed that more energy gets stored in the tendon.

Her team also monitored 15 professional runners as they ran on a treadmill. Those with shorter heels had lower oxygen intake, indicating greater running efficiency.

"If I were to bet my money on any athlete, I'd definitely have a look at their feet first," says Scholz."

So, how is this trainable? And, how do quick sprints in the low-density atmosphere in the Ethiopian highlands (as you so advised) overcome this apparently innate/inborn quality in someone who does not have it?

And, in your quote ... why would this only apply to those with low VO2max? Surely it would apply to anyone, irrespective of oxygen uptake?

Are you (wellnow) now comfortable stating that efficiency/economy is inborn and is linked to "short heels"?

A. Nonymous wrote:

Hadd didn't say, or even imply, that a marathoner like Wanjiru will beat a miler like El Gerrouj with proper mile training, or vice versa. He said that if you take Wanjiru and train him like a miler, he'll be more economical at mile pace. Likewise, if El Gerrouj trained for a marathon he'd become more economical at marathon pace.

No need to call wellnow on this. Anyone with any reading comprehension whatsoever will have noted that he, either deliberately or otherwise (and to use his own term) missed the point!

A. Nonymous wrote:

Hadd didn't say, or even imply, that a marathoner like Wanjiru will beat a miler like El Gerrouj with proper mile training, or vice versa. He said that if you take Wanjiru and train him like a miler, he'll be more economical at mile pace. Likewise, if El Gerrouj trained for a marathon he'd become more economical at marathon pace.

Well obviously Wanjiru isn't going to beat the best milers in the World, nor the best milers in the World run under 2.07 for a marathon. But the similarities in training are significant, so muc so that it's more a case of what they leave out of their training than what they include. So the best trained marathon runners ARE very economical in at mile pace, and the best trained milers ARE very economical at marathon pace.

Hadd wrote:

So, how is this trainable? And, how do quick sprints in the low-density atmosphere in the Ethiopian highlands (as you so advised) overcome this apparently innate/inborn quality in someone who does not have it?

And, in your quote ... why would this only apply to those with low VO2max? Surely it would apply to anyone, irrespective of oxygen uptake?

Are you (wellnow) now comfortable stating that efficiency/economy is inborn and is linked to "short heels"?

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It was very silly of Scholz to say: "If I were to bet my money on any athlete, I'd definitely have a look at their feet first," because it implies that oxygen uptake is less important, when of course it is equally important. Yes I am confident in the research, but that quote is just stupid stupid stupid. In the research paper, they don't make that conclusion.

So the best distance runners can have a high VO2max/ relatively low economy or relatively low VO2max/high economy or a mixture of both.

Sprints are faster at altitude, so runners are able to practice running very fast over short distances.

With regard to altitude training. The advantage of less oxygen availabilty may be that the improved economy is due to fact that despite there being 25% less oxygen available at 8000ft the best Ethiopian men run just 5% slower over 10k.

So what is happening at altitude that makes distance runners more economical over long distances? I have an answer to this, a different one to Jack Daniels' low wind resistance idea, but what is your answer Hadd?

You're welcome Morten. It's a very intereting study and one that is easy for others to repeat. But this will only happen if we tell people about it. Then maybe there could be thousands of results to test the hypothesis much better.

Your freind may not have gained any benefit from wearing the oxygen mask and increasing his hematocrit, because this may have been a reduction in plasma volume more than an increase in red blood cells. But of course, training harder is surely the real reason for his improvement.

With regard to Haile Gebreselassie, his VO2max must be lower than it was when he was 20. People say that he is now just a time trialling marathon runner, but his run in the 10000m in Beijing was awesome.

wellnow wrote:

Hi, Morten. No problem, here is the answer to your question of why some runners with a low VO2max are very fast:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14915-a-short-heel-helps-runners-go-the-distance.htmlhttp://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/211/20/3266

wellnow wrote:

It was very silly of Scholz to say: "If I were to bet my money on any athlete, I'd definitely have a look at their feet first," because it implies that oxygen uptake is less important, when of course it is equally important. Yes I am confident in the research, but that quote is just stupid stupid stupid.

Why would you cite an article that you don't agree with? Their main point was that the "heal length" was directly related to efficiency. That "stupid stupid stupid" quote pretty much sums up the article.

ya.... wrote:

That "stupid stupid stupid" quote pretty much sums up the article.

I agree. Give it up wellnow

I do agree with the research. The problem is that after the paper was published, one of the researchers made a claim suggesting that heel length was more important than oxygen uptake, which was a stupid thing to say. Both are equally important.

Hadd wrote:

wellnow wrote:

You need to ability to run as economically as possible at every pace without your pace dropping.

If you read Daniels as you said elsewhere, you would know that marathon runners are more economical at M-pace than milers at M-pace.

He showed that milers become more economical as the pace approaches their mile race pace. Milers are more economical at race pace than they are when running slower. You cannot be as economical as possible at every pace.

If milers train to become marathon runners they will improve their economy at M-pace, but simultaneously reduce their economy at mile race pace.

**********************************************

Let me explain why I think that this idea is exaggerated. It all has to do with muscle tone. I mentioned a few pages ago that I need a very intensive warm-up to run a fast 1500m This is because I don't have good 400/800m speed and so I need to do this type of warm-up in order to induce the higher muscle tone I need to run a fast 1500m race.

If you look at Wanjiuru's training you will see that he does very long runs at a very slow pace. This helps maintain the necessary muscle tone throughout the race, and would certainly help a middle distance runner training for a Marathon.

Think about it, why do so many runner's legs tighten up in the last few miles of a Marathon? The reason is NOT bad economy. There is more to the endurance side of the training than being able to do long runs at close to race pace. The issue of neuromuscular coordination is critical to all paces and the ability to hold those paces, and if a Marathon runner's legs tighten up at 20 miles, it's because they have reached a critical point beyond which their legs cannot coordinate well enough to maintain the pace.