Lydiard Aerobic Phase

sim wrote:

Ok, so now you are using Canova as an authority.

I had never heard of him until letsrun.

Canova uses the reasons that now there is a double periodised year for competing. Here is his first mistake. Competitions are should be considered secondary to training.

Canova says the new system of training is based on high intensity. This is his second mistake.

Canova says the new frontier of methodolody is to use many periods of specific training with a strong modulation. This is his third mistake

Canova's fourth mistake is he is not aware of the technical aspects of running.

You might be the singular most ignorant person to post at Letsrun.

You\'ve figured this out nicely.

Don\'t know how extensive your knowledge of distance running coaches is, but you may recognize Bill Squires\' name. He\'s coached five, I believe, sub 2:10 marathoners in the 70s and 80s.

He, Nobby and I were chatting a few years ago and Bill was commenting on people who coach Kenyans. He said that he didn\'t really think that good coaching was taking a kid who\'d run 10km in 28:15 when he was 17-18 and getting him to a 2:06-2:07 marathon. He thought real coaching was taking a 23 year old who had run a 2:23 marathon and taking him to 2:13.

In \"Train Hard, Win Easy\" there is a section about Kenyan coaches. One of them says that anyone who does his workouts can become a world class runner. The first session was 4x800 in 1:56-2:00. I remember thinking that anyone who can run 4x800 in 1:56-2:00 is already pretty close to being a world class runner and that the real trick here is to get someone to the point where they could do that sort of thing.

Lisa Ondieki once said that when she was married to Yobes Ondieki she tried doing the sort of training he did and it nearly killed her. She said that she thought westerners were largely not able to hold up under the sort of training Kenyans did.

Renato also wrote this

That is not true, because Sebastian ran all his life very long. If you see the career of these people, normally also the big runners of 800, 1,500 meters, come from long distance. [2003 World 800m Champion Andre] Bucher was, for example, in Switzerland, the best junior in 10,000 meters, 5,000 meters, steeple and reigning in junior cross country, then becomes a specialist in 1,500, then after 1,500, 800. [Steve] Cram won European Championships at 3,000 meters before going to mile and 1,500, and after mile and 1,500, although he was very slow, not fast, still able to run 1:42.88 [for 800 meters]. Why? Because you can build not your speed, but your speed endurance when you have a very, very big aerobic base, aerobic background, that now these people don't have. This is the problem.

So when you run very, very long, but never fast, you go for a general type of training, but this is basic training. Long, long run at low level can only produce improvement in short distance, not in long distance.

from

http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/interviews/2005/renatocanova.html

contradictory to your posting

sim,

I asked him what he meant by other coaches "disagreeing" with Lydiard. Please don't hold that against him if he brings up other coaches -- it's one of the few responses that address the question.

What I gathered from this example is not that Canova disagrees with Lydiard on the benefits of marathon training, but that the periodisation of two peaks per year doesn't fit more modern racing schedules, compared to 40 years ago. But, Lydiard also gave modified schedules for athletes who compete year round.

the buzz

I know more about Renato ideas than you for sure.

Where is the contradition ?

Did you read this ?

“I use a method very different from Lydiard. This fact is not because Marathon Training is not good”

Where the Renato mensracing.com wrote refers Lydiard or relate what he says to the Lydiard training more than every other training method ? Where ? I don’t see it, and I don’t need glasses. May be the Lydiard name just run away of the writing.

You simply you see Lydiard everywhere. Omnipresent.

I know that Lydiard refers to the need of an aerobic training condition, but Renato doesn’t refute that interest. Renato confirms that interest . Simply he says that the challenge of the modern runner in the present days due to a high and frequent competitive demand it needs a different training approach in what concerns the periodisation. Sometimes a top runner needs to be ready for 8months of a quite permanent competitive schedule. This you may admit.

Consequently it needs a different training approach in what constitutes the aerobic elements of the build up aerobic block that promotes the aerobic shape condition. This need the Lydiard followers hadn’t admit yet. About this I will do a few comments further up.

Ps – Please don’t tuirn on hunger or crucify Renato. Don’t call him what you did to me. I´m a stupid one, a bastard, a fanatic, a idiot, a clown whatever, but him… ? He is a man of respect.

I really should go through a whole lot of different posts and look for common phrases, commonalities in expression and sentence structure. But who would be bothered to do this?

Would you classify me an an elite Mr Not? Maybe i have some insight into what goes through an elites mind. Do you?

It is funny to hear you so biased towards the elite end of this sport. The comparison between elite and couch potatoes gives you away. You are an elitist in attitude but i believe you have never actually experienced the elite mindset. As an ex-elite (to use this term), i'm just as interested in helping the everyday person than as potential elite.

See in the end talent just doesn't matter in the bigger picture. Aspiration matters. The desire to improve oneself. As a coach this is far easier to work with than arrogance or negativity and those people always go further in their improvement - even if it is from 3:45 to 2:35 over 10 years this is a massive change for a person to make. I like change.

If you get off your elite soapbox then you might see how to engender your own change.

Those of you who don´t know who is Sergey Lebid i may say something. At the time of this post Renato was the coach of the Ukrane Sergey Lebid. Further up in another Renato post about Sergey Renato said that he did quit out to coach Sergey Lebid because Sergey refuses to do speed work as Renato wanted.

One more post by Renato Canova on this board with more comments about the Lydiard training. Let´s see if Mr. Ray is satisfy.

The best quality of Sergey is a final progression, not a short sprint. So, he doesn't have the kick, but is able to finish very fast during last 400-600m.

The worst quality of Sergey is that never was able to start very fast in a race. He needs running increasing his pace, and is not able to answer when some athlete (like africans do) change quickly his speed.

He has a PB of 3:39.5 in 1500, and with a good training can improve to 3:36. But El Guerrouj, Kibowen, Chebii, Kipchoge are all faster than him.

He has PB of 28:12 in 10k (this year) and 61:49 in HM. Are good, but Bekele, Kipchoge and others can run really faster.

So, the only way for beeing competitive is to find a tactical race, like happened during WCh in Edmonton.

The problem is that the new generation of top runners (expecially Bekele and Kipchoge) don't await the race, but "make" the race.

So, really I think that a position in top 6 must be considered like a triumph. Also if are not mathematics, top level competitions follow precise rules, and it's not possible to reverse the reality.

About the question "like short intervals are good for cross and not for track", my answer is very clear :

In cross you cannot use high continuous speed, that depends on the level of your Anaerobic Threshold, expecially when it's muddy. You need muscle strenght (and Sergey is stronger than Kenyans, but not than Bekele), high strenght-endurance, not very high aerobic power. So, a training of volume is very important, as the training of strenght.

Regarding short intervals, they are good for preparing the capacity of changing pace, and of sprinting during the last part of the race.

But this can happen only when the races are slow in the first part, because training long run and very short tests doesn't allow to increase your capacity in running FAST FOR LONG TIME. For doing this, you need LONG INTERVALS AT HIGH SPEED (may be 102-105% of the Race Pace), that he didn't do with his system.

You are always speaking about Lydiard, that was a very great coach, but never prepared an athlete for competing in a cross season. With this system, you cannot be in shape for the winter season, and for winning WCCCh you need running about 27:20 or less (with Bekele under 26:40, in other case you are not competitive). So, you have to use a similar training of the summer, only with some more volume and a little slower speed.

Without long intervals (3000/2000, and 6-10 km very fast continuous running) you cannot win a medal in World CC.

Hi Ray, fair enough! I went a bit hard but i think what i've said holds true.

I really think that once an athlete has solidified their aerobic development then a double periodised year can be attempted.

Daley Thompson took 1981 and 1985 off any big International competitions. They were both deliberately single periodised years. (He won Olympics in 1980 and 1984).

I asked him about this and he said something like, 'you always need to go back to that to reset'.

One of the big mistakes coaches are now making is trying to compete for most of the year. Indoor races, major XC races and then an entire outdoor track season. Go go go. Burnout soon follows.

In technical events it often works out a little different. It takes a few years to solidify the technique and so those years can also be spent building a large base, before any major thoughts towards actual competition peaking are considered. In running people can just run and have absolutely no thought as to what they are doing. I see it all the time, i suffer from it myself. Cerutty calls it Zombieism, a lack of awareness of what on is doing. I find thinking technically about running helps avoid this zombieism.

Hi Not a Fanatic

So you are a fanatic afterall - a renato fanatic

I never said I know more about Renato than you. You are creating an argument that is not there. I never mentioned Lydiar either in reference to Renato

These two statements

Athletes able running in 1'44", never have to rest to long time, losing a part of what before they were able to build. The new frontier of methodology is to use during a season many periods of specific training, with a strong modulation, but always at an intensity very high. For example, Mutua and Bungei runs about 1 hour only 1 day per week (during winter, in Kenya), but for improving their AEROBIC POWER use other system

and this

although he was very slow, not fast, still able to run 1:42.88 [for 800 meters]. Why? Because you can build not your speed, but your speed endurance when you have a very, very big aerobic base, aerobic background, that now these people don't have. This is the problem.

not in synch with each other

You ask of proof of the cult. I ask if you have taken time to read the other letsrun threads who speak of the cult? I would urge you to do this required reading. Meanwhile I would make a connection to your use of 'metaphysical' with this topic. Is this not cult like behaviour? Of course it is. Do the reading and you will see what it is I say.

sim wrote:

One of the big mistakes coaches are now making is trying to compete for most of the year. Indoor races, major XC races and then an entire outdoor track season. Go go go. Burnout soon follows.

Just some cases of success that didn´t use the Lydiard periodisation as well as they use a different aerobic build up shape condition that includes fast pace training than the Lydiard method and interval training with short and long sets as well as they incorporate in the pre competitive block (named anaerobic by Lydiard) more aerobic runs than the Lydiard training. Besides they don´t do no intermediary hill block. Resume. Almost all have a different training structure than the Lydiard training.

Burnout soon as the very best Gebrelassie that runs for some 20 years or burnout like Kenenisa Bekele that says on the top for so long now and that he runs during the spring, summer winter and autumn in different distances and different terrains like cross, indoors, outdoors and road runs. They are runners that are on the top for some more than 20 runs at the world top class and despite they follow a training regime with track workouts almost constant they didn´t blow out. Burnout like Paul Tergat that used to run on cross, road and track. Burnout like Dieter Baumman that was able to be at the top for some 17 years – he goes for the top class at 20 years and he stayed there until 37 , was able to be 5000m olympic champ, European champ, world medallist, the only european born able to run sub13:00. Burn as Carlos Lopes able to win his first WCCC in 76 and 10000m Olympic silver and in 1984 wins his third WCC title and was able to be marathon olympic champ in 84 and marathon WR in 1975.

Burnout like Fermin Cacho 1500m olympic winner. Burnout like Abel Anton that stayed on the top for some 15 consecutive seasons.

Burnout like Paula Radcliffe that start training so soon and she still continues in top shape. She is able to compete in W HM champ and win and do HM best performance and she is able to compete in the WCC during the late winter and she is able to compete in the track runs during the summer. Meanwhile she competes in another runs at her best shape. Burnout like El Guerrouj the very best that he was able to compete in the indoor season and be 3000m indoor champ and during the summer he was able to win all Golden Gala meetings and to win the outdoor world champ. Burnout like Tadesse that he is able to win the W HM champs in the fall season and then to participate in the New Year runs and beat the best and during the winter he did compete in the major international cross country runs and then he wins the WCCC and later during the summer he dis huge track performances.

I could go on with more examples. Hundreds of examples, but no need. Only the dumb don’t understand. Only the fanatic don’t want to agree and don’t see the evidence.

The Lydiard training is outdate in many aspects.

Hello Not a fanatic

You list many athletes - how many train intensely all year round.

You mention el guerrouj in your argument

His reported training is below

http://members.iinet.net.au/~peterg1/run/el_train.html

A lot of aerobic base work at what seems to be best aerobic pace.

There seems to be distinct phases to his training.

The prime interest of that names is to prove that they didn´t burn out while have a different periodisation than what the Lydiard training precribes. You shall agree that with something like 20 runs at the top world level spread during the summer season and sometimes he also did the indoor season this is not the typical Lydiard training.

Otherwise this run schedule enabled him to have such a a long aerobic shape condition period as Lydiard advises.

If you think that´s the El Guerrouj training that you present that´s enough to change my opinion you are wrong. Besides the El Guerrouj winter build up includes faster pace runs that what the classic Lydiard does. Also the competitive season - as anaerobic block seen is longer than Lydiard 6 weeks. How would you want that i agree in that points ? No i don´t.

Besides you have a single example to contest me. And about all the rest of the names that i list. If you want i can list 10 times more. Anyhow despite what you say about shall be right, that´s not enough to change the tendency. The tendency is that you can train diffrently thna Lydiard and stay on the runner scene at your best top shape and you best perfermances while you also train differently than Lydiard. That´s what Renato posts say. Among other things.

The buzz. You may think what pleases you. You may think that the Lydiard training is the world best, that the unique one that can put you on the top, that Lydiard he is the Father of the Jogging that if you don´t use the Lydiardc way to lace the shoes you take tremendous benefit from it. I don´t think so. In my opinion the evidence that all that is not true is such that only a ignorant or a fanatic can argue against it.

"not a fanatic",

I may never be satisfied, but that's a different issue.

What I take away from your Canova examples is that, when using 6 month periods, with 3 months marathon conditioning, an athlete is not competing in his event for 2x3 months each year.

But Lydiard did provide modified schedules to accomodate athletes competing for 3 seasons or year round.

What I take away from both Lydiard and Canova, is that nothing happens without aerobic development.

As you mention, Lydiard recognized that the running world was different than it had been when he was training his original group. One of the big changes was that there were more opportunities for competition throughout the year so many athletes were not as well served by a schedule that pointed for two peaks a year. He had many questions from high school and college coaches in the US who wanted to use his ideas but who needed their athletes to be in racing shape year round. So he created modified schedules to accommodate the year round athlete.

Arthur may not have been the first person to do that with his system. Pat Clohessey came to the same conclusion about the changed running world when he began coaching in Oz. Clohessey had trained and raced in Europe with Lydiard in the early 60s and used the system. But Clohessey's athletes incoporate hill and anaerobic work pretty much year round. Nic Bideau acknowledges a strong Lydiard influence but also does not seem to have his athletes doing distinctive phases.

I believe that when he senses an athlete is getting ragged his response is to spend some time doing only aerobic work, but I recall a quote from Mottram to the effect that he's never more than a few weeks away from racing form.

I believe that this later adaption of Lydiard is by far the most commonly used one now. It's probably the reason so many of us who understand Lydiard's ideas can look at what so many current runners do and see Lydiard's principles in application.

sim wrote:

you!

Not wrote:

ur still pissed cus of the 3 x no-jumps thing.

some people try and use that against me. It would work except it's all been done before and i've well reflected on that particular stuffup. Continue to use it if you wish it has minimal effect. (maybe i coach now because i still have unfinished business?)

I don't know who is Skuj and who is not. It's all very suspiscious. You may be Skuj. Makes things interesting though.

Personal attacks ey? How about critically attacking what i said, give me a chance to learn something from you.

....says the guy who trashed skuj and told him to grow up because he has a child now.

every example of a non burnout you give is/was a highly suspected user of drugs. i don't care if an athlete uses drugs, just don't lie and cover the use up.

so you are still finding isolate things hey.

Firstly, what does Geb and Kenny do for training? Is it Canova training? Do you know?

Next Baumann, bad choice of athlete to back yourself up - here is 3 weeks of his training from 2002 and then 3 weeks of what he does now, look similar to anything you know?

Baumann 2002

4.11-10.11

Mon 48’ easy 12km

Tue am: 40’ jog + circuit for strength endurance (30’,)pm: 66’ easy-mod 17km (last 4km 3:30)

Wed am:42’ easy 10km, pm: 20’ w.u.Track: 8x1000m (3:05-3:00) rec.1:30 + 20’ w.d.

Thur 1hr 23min. easy 21km

Fri am: 1:10 min easy 16km, pm: 45’ 10km

Sat am: 3x3,9km (12:32-12:26-12:06) rec.2’ (hilly trail in the forest), pm:45’ jog

Sun 1hr 45min easy-mod 28km last 45’ (3:30)

11.11.-17.11

mon 53’ easy 13km

tue 42’ easy+ circuit for strength endurance (40’)

50’ easy 12km

wed 20’ w.u. 10x400m uphill 5-6% (1:30-1:25) rec. 2:10 + 20’ w.d. – 20km

7km jog

thur 8km jog

42’ easy 10km

fri 1hr 35min. 25km last 5km 16:40min.

sat 1:10min mod 18km last 4km uphill

sun 1:30 very easy 20km

Baumann 2008

1.10.-7.10

Mon Endurance 12k 55'

Tue Rest

Wed Long long endurance 34k 2:33

Thurs Easy endurance 18k 1:22

Fri Fartlek after 60' 20 x 1' w 1' rec - Total 1:46 25k

Sat a.m. Easy endurance 55' 12km, p.m. Easy endurance 38' 8km

Sun Long long endurance 2:20 progression 10/15/10k

40:45/56:2/33:50 min

8.10-14.10

mon Easy end. 55' 12 km

Tues Easy end. 1:06 15 km

Wed Long long end. 2:33 33 km

Thurs Easy end. 1:10 15 km

Fri Easy end. 43' 9 km

Sat Test 1 Hour 18,6 km (3:12) Avg. - total 23 km

Sun Easy end 1:15

ah that's enough - you are so argumentative that you are missing all the good stuff.

just check out what the top 20 800m runners of all time did for their base training, excellent comparison article:

http://z12.invisionfree.com/Hunter_Reports/index.php?showtopic=432

HRE wrote:

It's probably the reason so many of us who understand Lydiard's ideas can look at what so many current runners do and see Lydiard's principles in application.

You guys see Lydiard principles in me running across the street to dodge a car or running to the fridge to get a beer. All over letsrun you and your friends are saying "see he's a lydiardite" when he is not.