Some more information about kenyan athletes

Really, we don't see any western athlete to do this type of training, and this is one of the reason because now they are no more competitive. But, in the past, I saw many european runners to use this type of variations.

For example, about Alberto Cova, winner of European Ch. in '82, World Ch. '83, Olympic Games '84, European Cup '85 (always with a terrifying last lap), his coach Giorgio Rondelli (working with the Italian group in Tirrenia) thought a special work : 10 x 400m in 58.0 (rec. 2 min), using 3 different parts at speed of 15.0, and one part at speed of 13.0. The particularity was that every time the fast 100m changed position. So, for example, you coul run 13.0 + 45.0, or 45.0 + 13.0, or 15 + 13 + 30, or 30 + 13 + 15. The goal of this work was to become totally owner of the last lap, knowing himself perfectly, and building a big mental lucidity in the most complicated part of the race.

I remember also Fernando Mamede running 3000m with variations of speed, and Emiel Puttemans. In Italy, also Antibo used this work (not on track but on the road). One week before beating the Italian record of 10000m winning in Helsinki with 27:16 in 1989, he tested himself during the Final of Italian Club Championships, running in two following days, before 10000m in 29:07 alternating laps in 60.0 / 80.0 (after informing the other runners of his strange test), after 5000m with even pace in 13:37 (test for the passage of the race).

But, for example, with Lebid I use some work of variations, also on track, and in the past I used with Maura Viceconte (Italian record holder of 10000/Marathon with 31:05.54 and 2:23:47) and other women like Ornella Ferrara (bronze in World Ch. '95 in Marathon) and Maria Curatolo (silver in Marathon '94 in European Ch., and 8th in OG '88).

I have only just found this thread and it seems to me that its going to keep me busy for a very long time......good posting Renato.

Bill, read as much Renato as you can, then read it again, and again and again over and over and over.

Renato is absoulutely THE MAN.

one of the biggest problems in UK athletics is that we don't do specific training properly, it's all a bit haphazard with too much emphasis on fast reps at the wrong pace at the wrong time of year.

Renato teaches us how to avoid these mistakes by doing the right sessions at the right time.

Thank you for your very detailed reply. As far as I know, the Fins and Russians used a lot of variable interval pace running as race tactics in the 70's, therefore purposely switching the pace throughout which their competitors were not use to.

There is a lot to digest in the details of your examples, but I'm just wondering about the 20Km alternative every Km 2:55- 3:08 to average 3:01.5/Km. 6.5" on 3:01.5 is 3.6%. That must be getting AT LEAST very close to lactate threshold for 3' 10 times. I would guess the lactate would stay at the high end within 20' of the 20Km.

If the runner is running lets say at 3.6 Mmol on the 2:55's- the lactate surely cannot clear very much running at 3.6% off marathon pace in 3:08 (3Mmol maybe????) After 20' 3.4Mmol??? Have you tested or can you estimate, since it us very interesting for marathon pace training.

Finally, I fail to see 9-10Mmol racing lactate threshold you discussed. I read all the lactate readings- I don't see a threshold (where lactate is steady at the 9-10 Mmol range at speed x and SLIGHTLY faster speed y it jumps to a much higher lactate reading. Can you provide an example of that racing threshold.

Thank you very much. This is very interesting.

Renato,

Okay I have asked about that workout 3 times, as it was included in another schedule you posted. Maybe I need to make a longer message. I wonder why you include it in a schedule, and then say later it's not useful. I'm just wondering about your interpretation of it in the schedule you mentioned before (and now), and appreciate your comments. Thanks.

Here is the schedule you posted from the other thread, which you include this workout (5 sets of 4 x 100m in 14). Thanks

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=255993&thread=220022

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In Kenya, the 90% of training for young runners is "natural training" with aerobic direction. So, they run long run easy, 20 min hard, some repetition not very hard (no longer than 400m) and some fartlek (normally using 1 min fast / 1 min easy). They don't seek any intensity. So, they are able running 13:20 and 3:35 only with general and basic training. THEY HAVE YET TO START THEIR REAL TRAINING.

Instead (but may be that I am wrong, I don't know), I've the sensation that US runners use a system based on intervals, anaerobic training, very intense workouts. This type of training cannot be used like normal system, because permits to reach in short time good results, but destroys your body instead to build it.

Without a big base (Lydiard was the first, and you always remember him) is not possible to improve in quality and to consolidate your level.

I want to give an example.

There is an athlete training 4 times per week, using the same schedule. When is in his top shape, his week is the following :

Mon : 30 min easy + 15 x 400 in 63.0 recovery 1 min

Tue : 40 min easy + speed (5 sets of 4 x 100m in 14)

Wed : Rest

Thu : 10 x 1000m in 3:00 rec. 2 min

Fri : 50 min progressive run

Sat : Rest

Sun : Race (3-5 km)

The total mileage is about 40 miles per week.

This athlete goes running a 10000m, and is able running in 31 min. SO, SOMEONE THINKS THAT THE RELATION BETWEEN 10x1000m AND THE RACE IS : INTERVALS AT 3:00 = RACE AT 3:06.

Next year, you mantain the same schedule, BUT EVERY DAY YOU GO FOR AN AEROBIC SESSION, so your schedule is :

Mon : a) 1 hr moderate b) Like before

Tue : a) 40 min easy b) Like before

Wed : 1 hr with last 20 min hard

Thu : The same (only one session)

Fri : a) 1 hr 10 min moderate b) Like before

Sat : 1 hr at moderate pace

Sun : Race (5-10 km, for example no more short cross, but long distance)

The total mileage is now about 85-90 miles per week.

Nothing changed about intervals, NOR THE NUMBERS OF REPETITIONS, NEITHER THE DURATION OF REST, NEITHER THE SPEED.

You go running a race of 10000m and are able running in 29:50, FASTER THAN YOUR INTERVALS OF 1000m.

So, now the relation between 10x1000 and the race is :

INTERVALS AT 3:00 = RACE AT 2:59.

What did it happen ? That YOUR SPECIFIC TRAINING OF INTERVALS NOW IS ABSORBED INSIDE THE VOLUME, and its output is better than before.

SO, THE IMPROVEMENT IS NOT IN RUNNING ALWAYS FASTER, BUT IN A CORRECT BALANCE BETWEEN RUNNING LONGER, INCREASING VOLUME, AND RUNNING EASIER AT THE SAME SPEED.

Your body and your mind are full of energy, not always exhausted. Thru too many intervals, you finish in short time your nervous fuel, and your tank can be empty for long time.

But, I repeat, can be that my impression is wrong : I don't know the reality, mine is only a supposition.

Van, aspirin doesn't actually reduce plasma viscosity, rather it reduces the ability of blood to clot. thus, all aspirin does is helps you bleed longer if you are cut. safest way (without actually taking a plasma expander) is just to hydrate well. especially if you tend to wake in the middle of the night, try to drink some water, helps fight the typical morning dehydration.

doc john

plasma viscosity? YOU'RE NO DOCTOR

JonnyO

Do you have Renato's book yet?

Pantman, sadly it didn't appear in my Christmas stocking, so last week i copied the most important info from Renato's marathon training thread.

as i said in september, i am going to follow Renato's advice when training for the London Marathon in April

i hope to buy Renato's book soon.

JonnyO,

I e-mailed IAAF with order and ccard details and had it (sent from Monaco) in under a week - just a few pounds, just a small book, but worth its weight in gold.

Lots more than what is on the threads...

Pantman,

Thanks for the recommendation. : )

cheers Pantman, how much is it?

How does a plasma expander work? I've heard cyclists use the product and I seem to remember a couple of German steeplers who admitted using the stuff but claimed it wasn't illegal.

glycerol is a legal plasma expander. it is a vegetable extract, so its perfectly safe and natural.

it works by helping to store extra water in the body, presumably the same way it helps plants to store water.

extra plasma (water) in the blood improves endurance, because you can work at a high intensity for longer without getting dehydrated.

this is one of the main reasons why african distance runners are so good over long distance, they have a naturally higher plasma level when they train hard

cyclist who took epo would even use a drip to boost plasma to keep the hematocrit below 50% and pass the blood test, a completely ridiculous exploitation and abuse of their bodies by doctors who claimed that such preparation was neccessary to win big races. not to mention the huge cost of such treatments, which made some ruthless men very rich.

fortunately Lance Armstrong was not so stupid as to use these methods, although he has still been criticised for using a hypoxic tent, to simulate altitude.

other ways to boost plama are to run more mileage, eat more carbs, stay warm during the day by wearing more clothing or turning the heating up at home, especially during cold weather. some people have used environmental chambers, where they just sit in a hot humid room for an hour and sweat, it works, you dont even have to train in there, just sweating is enough.

anything that makes you sweat will help to increase blood plasma although of course you have to drink more water. in fact just warmer weather or a warmer environment alone will make your body retain more water.

an increase in blood plasma will be idicated by a reduction in resting pulse rate, so if your resting pulse is much lower than before, then you are doing it right.

lately due to cold weather my resting pulse rate has been very high, if the weather turned suddenly warm my resting pulse will drop as my body retains more fluid.

have you ever noticed, sometimes after a long hard workout, or race, your resting pulse when you go to bed is much lower than you expected? thats because of an increase in plasma volume.

About the first question, the most important goal in Marathon is to reduce the difference between the 2 thresholds (AT of about 2 mmol, and AnT of about 4 mmol), that, when you are really prepared in your SPECIFIC POWER MARATHON ENDURANCE are very close (under 5% in the best runners). What does it mean 5% ?

You have a marathon runner, 4 months before his race. You test your runner (that has a PB of 63:20 in HM = 3:00 / km)

and find that, at 3:00 pace (after 20/25 min), he has a level of lactate of about 4 mmol. You can really suppose that this athlete, well prepared, can run a full marathon in 2:13 (that is 3:09 pace). If you think that the relation between 63:20 and 2:13:00 is not correct, is only because you type of training marathon is not correct. Of sure, every athlete talented for long run, able running a HM at 3:00 / km pace, must be able running in 2:13:00 with a correct training (sometime, TRAINING HARD IS NOT TRAINING WELL...).

Anyway, if 3:00 pace is 100% (18.0 every 100m), 3:09 is 95% of the same speed.

But, if you test your runner 4 months before the race, you find that running at 3:09 can provoke a lactate level of about 3 / 3.3, so higher than what is possible to accept for running full marathon. You must remember that, when you produce more lactate, is because your consumption of glycogen is growing, and this fact means that your tank of glycogen cannot last more than 1:30:00.

If you test the level of 2 mmol (for example, using the FARAGGIANA - GIGLIOTTI test, consisting in 6 x 2000m even pace, with very short recovery (may be 40 sec, only the time for taking blood from the ear), increasing speed every time (for example, in the above case : 6:50 / 6:40 / 6:30 / 6:20 / 6:10 / 6:00, more a last 1200m free faster possible), you can find (it's an example) values of 1.8 mmol - 2.0 - 2.4 - 2.8 - 3.4 - 4.0. So, you can suppose that, at that time, the speed for producing 2 mmol (good for running full marathon) can be about 3:20 (a difference of 11% from HM speed), and this athlete, also with long run, cannot run a marathon under 2:20.

One of the systems for reducing the difference of speed from 2 to 4 mmol (conventional values) is to work very much using the speed of recovery, of course running fast.

What example we can do for building a correct consumption of fuel ? For instance, using 1000m at alternated speed :

4 MONTHS BEFORE MARATHON :

You start alternating a fast km (at the speed of 4 mmol, may be 3:05 at that moment) to a slower km of recovery (at a speed under 2 mmol, may be 3:40)

During the first period, if you use this type of training 3 times, every time you KEEP CONSTANT RECOVERY SPEED, and try to improve TIME OF TEST, for improving your ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD (Resistance is the BASE for increasing POWER).

At the end of the period, you are able running in 3:00/3:40 (average 3:20)

3 MONTHS BEFORE MARATHON :

You KEEP CONSTANT THE SPEED OF TESTS, and try to improve SPEED OF RECOVERY. You are able to improve your AEROBIC THRESHOLD, keeping at the same level the AnT (Power is the BASE for increasing SPECIFIC ENDURANCE).

At the end of the period, you are able running in 3:00/3:30

(average 3:15)

2 MONTHS BEFORE MARATHON :

You work on speed of tests (till 2:58) during the first 2 sessions, and on speed of recovery (3:26) during the third session. So, at the end, you run in 2:58/3:26 (av. 3:12)

LAST MONTH :

You can lose little power, as when you are really ready for full Marathon, you cannot run your PB in Half. If this happens, there's some mistake in your training. Last period has the focus of INCREASING SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE, bringing the speed of 2 mmol (marathon) very close to the speed of HM. So, you can run a little slower your tests (3:00), working for improving speed of recovery (at the end, 3:18). In this case, your average is 3:09, and you can identify it in your Marathon Pace, using of course even pace.

Of course, we don't use only this work, but use also more long run, specific marathon endurance workouts (for ex., 4 x 5000m at 102% of your MP, recovering 1 km in 3:30), always having inside a SPECIFIC ELEMENT : Marathon Speed.

The most important thing, in this project, is to control a correct recovery. So, a big modulation becomes the most important way of training. When you go to specificity, YOU MUST BE FRESH IN MUSCLES AND IN BRAIN FOR RUNNING AT Mar. Pace. So, recovery is very important. You not only can, but MUST recover running big volume at low intensity. MORE YOU RUN SLOWLY IN YOUR RECOVERIES DURING SPECIFIC PERIOD, MORE YOU CAN RUN FAST FOR LONG TIME DURING YOUR SPECIFIC WORKOUTS. Don't forget that the Specificity, in Mararathon, is a Specificity of Extension.

Regarding the other question, with specific training for 5000/10000m (and also steeple), athletes can increase their capacity of running in Steady State with a very high level of lactate. For example, in a 10000m runner (in 27:30), if we can share the race (supposing that is at even pace) in parts of 2000m, we could find (after every 2000) lactate of 6 mmol (5:30) - 8 mmol (11:00) - 8.5 mmol (16:30) - 9 mmol (22:00) and a final of 12/14 mmol, due not only to a final increase of speed, but also (supposing yet even pace) to the difficulty in keeping a good Steady State longer than 15/17 min. This type of SS is called MAX LASS (Maximum Lactate Steady State), and for top runners can be about 12/13 mmol lasting 6/7 min at the speed of 5000m (2:30/2:35), and about 8/9 mmol lasting 15/17 min at the speed of 10000 (2:38/2:42).

One of the reason of variations of speed in long tests on track is to improve this attitude.

Thank you for your great response.

I always thought that the 2Mmol velocity is a good indication of fitness at the early stages of base building and/or indication of fatigue, but not necessarily an indication during the specificity period. At specificity, the faster the 4Mmol velocity the better, but the most important being the MP lactate (3-3.5Mmol) which I assumed a runner can keep throughout especially a slow twitch runner.

How far off I'm I?

A (Abera, KK, Okayo types) predominantly ST

B (Gebr, Kiplagat) More FT than above

HM A and B get the same time- let's go with your 63:20 example, obviously head wind for the M and tail wind for L.

LT = 4Mmol for all, let's say.

Mmol @ 20' A=3.3/3.5, B=3.5/3.8

Mmol @ 40' A=3.8./4.1, B=4/4.3

Mmol @ 55'- no sprinting nice even pace throughout

A=4.1/4.3, B=4.1/5.0

For the marathon, lets say they all run 2:13 (again example with that TYPE of runner by 5K, 10K, marathon speed and possible muscle fiber type association).

Mmol @ 20' A= 2.6 B=3

40' A=2.9 B=3.2

60' A=3 B=3.3

80' A=3.2 B=3.4

100' A=3.3 B=3.4

120' A=3.4 B=3.4/3.3

A types much lower early but increae quicker for the first hour, then A increases steadily slower and B flatens out or lowers if slowing down as is usual for most not winning. Just an example, absolutely no foundation for this. But I still thought that was the thinking behind the lactate and muscle/ trained type of runners.

2. As you know, a lot of elite runners do get their best 10K personal best time and/or best HM shortly before or shortly after their marathon best.

I understand what you are saying that if you train exclusively for a half marathon (Tanzanian), you should be in a different form and especially for 10K. But often they go hand in hand with many athletes. But I do not think that would work with all athletes such as Gebr, which probably takes a very different approach to the marathon than 10K training + longer long runs and 3-5 MP runs. The complete program is revamped A to Z to enable MP maintenance of fuel VS 10K engine Horse Power. Other runners ???? they are at their best form for 3K-15K and 10K-marathon. ????? I would agree with you however- shouldn't.

In another post, when you have a chance please. Can you give us your understanding of Tanzanian runners- training history, philosophy, mentality, etc.

Also, will Eth or any country be successful at steeple if they put their full energy towards it as they have for the 5-10-marathon. Is the lactate very much higher at the 3K steeple as it is for a standard non-Olympic 3K track race.

Lastly, I know this is an E.African thread. But can you please comment on Russian, Romanian, Turkey ladies for 1500M to marathon for history, philosophy, etc...

Thank you very much as usual.

8ball, marathon pace is 2-2.5 not 3-3.5 mmol of lactate.

for the marathon lactate won't vary a great deal from runner to runner i don't think, because we all have to preserve glycogen in the same way.

however it is interesting how some marathon runners run very fast at the end. maybe they are running at below 2 mmols for the first 35k and then nearer to 4 mmoles for the last 7k bcause they have been able to preserve a lot of glycogen.

we see this a lot in the London Marathon.

for the 10k, i am sure there must be differences in lactate due to muscle fibre composition varying from runner to runner as you suggest.

I was assuming every day easy runs are @ 2Mmol and most runners are probably running them slightly too fast anyways around 2.2Mmol.

I was assuming for the marathon, the 3 hr guy is at least in the 2.5-2.8Mmol range. The machines in the 2:13 range are maintaining the high 2 low 3. I assumed. But of course the 10k readings would vary much more yet for muscle fiber type and/or training methods.

In Renato's example of month 4 to month 1, I can't imagine that there would be that great an improvement in 2Mmol velocity in 4 months- I would seriously doubt someone can run that fast at 2Mmol. Reduce the gap between MP and LT yes, but not Ae T 2Mmol and An T 4Mmol pace- that's a whole other story. I've been known to be wrong often, all in the spirit of learning. Cheers

Also, I used 2 and 4 Mmol. 4 is most likely too high for LT especially for predominantly ST runners, so the readings would all be lower relative.