I agree with this. I support Israel and their right to exist. This type of attack although frightening for the terror groups is going to indiscriminately kill or hurt people close to the phone/device. You know this is going to cause severe collateral death/maiming.
Yet Gaza complains about collateral damage from an airstrike or missile. Isreal can't win the pr war so who cares what anyone says. Isreal must do what it needs to do to survive
Murder tens of thousands of kids?
Maybe if they stopped bombing nations, assassinating people, stealing homes and land, committing one horrific act of terror after another, that would be helpful toward their survival
they are a natural ally, in that they are a western facing, liberal democracy in the grander american vision of american liberal democratic tradition of popular representation in government, human rights and open markets and personal freedoms.
they are a strategic ally, in that they dovetail into our overall aims for limiting the ambitions of authoritarian local and global actors and have provided many tactical assistance in these aims many times over.
is that what you're looking for? maybe there is some engagement with ChatGPT you could pursue instead of asking obvious questions here.
In fairness.. do u think they really do a great job of supporting human rights and personal freedoms in the west bank and Gaza? Hard not to see them as an authoritarian force in the region.
What does peace look like in Israel/Palestine to you? How many states?
One state? If one state (Israel), is it based on democracy? Hard to see that as it would be the end of their theocratic ethno state. A popular belief is that only ethnic cleansing can make a 1-state solution work for the Israelis (many feel this is their real plan).
Two states? How can Palestine work as a state now it is so sliced and diced by (illegal but state-supported) Israeli settlers. I've been there - it's untenable.
Everyone needs to support Israel's right to exist and defend itself - they are there for good now.
I do wish they could have stuck within borders that would have made future peace imaginable. 50% of the population in the region have no rights or future and are supposed to just accept that or get out and be a refugee somewhere else.
"liberal democracy in the grander american vision of american liberal democratic tradition of popular representation in government, human rights and open markets and personal freedoms."
This nonsense you wrote only applies to the Jewish population. Arabs in Israel live under an apartheid regime and no surprise the US supports that regime just like they supported apartheid South Africa.
they are a natural ally, in that they are a western facing, liberal democracy in the grander american vision of american liberal democratic tradition of popular representation in government, human rights and open markets and personal freedoms.
they are a strategic ally, in that they dovetail into our overall aims for limiting the ambitions of authoritarian local and global actors and have provided many tactical assistance in these aims many times over.
is that what you're looking for? maybe there is some engagement with ChatGPT you could pursue instead of asking obvious questions here.
In fairness.. do u think they really do a great job of supporting human rights and personal freedoms in the west bank and Gaza? Hard not to see them as an authoritarian force in the region.
What does peace look like in Israel/Palestine to you? How many states?
One state? If one state (Israel), is it based on democracy? Hard to see that as it would be the end of their theocratic ethno state. A popular belief is that only ethnic cleansing can make a 1-state solution work for the Israelis (many feel this is their real plan).
Two states? How can Palestine work as a state now it is so sliced and diced by (illegal but state-supported) Israeli settlers. I've been there - it's untenable.
Everyone needs to support Israel's right to exist and defend itself - they are there for good now.
I do wish they could have stuck within borders that would have made future peace imaginable. 50% of the population in the region have no rights or future and are supposed to just accept that or get out and be a refugee somewhere else.
Fair questions. No, Israel's human rights and freedoms do not apply to their occupied population, and this, in my opinion, is the real existential threat to Israel. A self-imposed threat of their own failure to acknowledge the rights of the occupied. However, they do apply to Israeli citizens (jewish or arab)
I do still believe a two-state solution is the most likely, and functional solution. Once the dust settles from the 10/7 attacks and Gaza war, that will have to be re-evaluated. Mostly, the illegal seizure of occupied territory in West Bank is the single biggest threat to a 2 state solution and makes a single state solution the most likely the longer this goes on. Why Israel doesn't recognize this I don't really understand.
they are a natural ally, in that they are a western facing, liberal democracy in the grander american vision of american liberal democratic tradition of popular representation in government, human rights and open markets and personal freedoms.
they are a strategic ally, in that they dovetail into our overall aims for limiting the ambitions of authoritarian local and global actors and have provided many tactical assistance in these aims many times over.
is that what you're looking for? maybe there is some engagement with ChatGPT you could pursue instead of asking obvious questions here.
In fairness.. do u think they really do a great job of supporting human rights and personal freedoms in the west bank and Gaza? Hard not to see them as an authoritarian force in the region.
What does peace look like in Israel/Palestine to you? How many states?
One state? If one state (Israel), is it based on democracy? Hard to see that as it would be the end of their theocratic ethno state. A popular belief is that only ethnic cleansing can make a 1-state solution work for the Israelis (many feel this is their real plan).
Two states? How can Palestine work as a state now it is so sliced and diced by (illegal but state-supported) Israeli settlers. I've been there - it's untenable.
Everyone needs to support Israel's right to exist and defend itself - they are there for good now.
I do wish they could have stuck within borders that would have made future peace imaginable. 50% of the population in the region have no rights or future and are supposed to just accept that or get out and be a refugee somewhere else.
We cannot afford too much more of Israel.
No way they are here to stay.
The fear is how much of the rest of the world they will be able to ruin
they are a natural ally, in that they are a western facing, liberal democracy in the grander american vision of american liberal democratic tradition of popular representation in government, human rights and open markets and personal freedoms.
they are a strategic ally, in that they dovetail into our overall aims for limiting the ambitions of authoritarian local and global actors and have provided many tactical assistance in these aims many times over.
is that what you're looking for? maybe there is some engagement with ChatGPT you could pursue instead of asking obvious questions here.
So. No reason. Just a word salad.
They are not in NATO.
They have no signed obligations to us.
US gives them billions upon billions every year and protects them in UN and World courts.
We have fought several wars in the ME (for them) and they have not once contributed troops.
And, of course, there is the USS Liberty. And Jonathan Pollard. The Lavon Affair.
Almost forgot. The Dancing Israelis and Urban Moving Systems
"We have fought several wars in the ME (for them) and they have not once contributed troops." This one isn't really fair. I assume you are talking about wars like Kuwait and Iraq and those were about a lot more than Israel. Also, no way the US wanted Israel as part of the coalition regardless -- that would have undermined the support of other Middle East countries.
I would say that the one real tangible benefit to the US from its relationship with Israel is likely intelligence sharing. That is definitely a two way street from which both sides benefit.
But if your general point is that Israel gets more out of the relationship than the US gets, that is almost certainly correct.
In fairness.. do u think they really do a great job of supporting human rights and personal freedoms in the west bank and Gaza? Hard not to see them as an authoritarian force in the region.
What does peace look like in Israel/Palestine to you? How many states?
One state? If one state (Israel), is it based on democracy? Hard to see that as it would be the end of their theocratic ethno state. A popular belief is that only ethnic cleansing can make a 1-state solution work for the Israelis (many feel this is their real plan).
Two states? How can Palestine work as a state now it is so sliced and diced by (illegal but state-supported) Israeli settlers. I've been there - it's untenable.
Everyone needs to support Israel's right to exist and defend itself - they are there for good now.
I do wish they could have stuck within borders that would have made future peace imaginable. 50% of the population in the region have no rights or future and are supposed to just accept that or get out and be a refugee somewhere else.
Fair questions. No, Israel's human rights and freedoms do not apply to their occupied population, and this, in my opinion, is the real existential threat to Israel. A self-imposed threat of their own failure to acknowledge the rights of the occupied. However, they do apply to Israeli citizens (jewish or arab)
I do still believe a two-state solution is the most likely, and functional solution. Once the dust settles from the 10/7 attacks and Gaza war, that will have to be re-evaluated. Mostly, the illegal seizure of occupied territory in West Bank is the single biggest threat to a 2 state solution and makes a single state solution the most likely the longer this goes on. Why Israel doesn't recognize this I don't really understand.
In general, I agree with your sentiments.
Strange that you still think a “two-state solution is the most likely”. It seems far from likely. It’s been too long and there is no real Palestine anymore, just scattered occupied territory.
The US and Israel are opposed to two-state and the only two major countries that consistently oppose resolutions to that effect in the UN, for whatever namesake that is worth. Nothing about it seems likely to change. Israel won’t stop until it has occupied all of Palestinian land because it has no compelling reason to yield anything. It’s too powerful to be stopped and it knows that. The US will just continue supporting Israel through that process. Israel recognizes all this very well.
“We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs - We have no place to go.” “I guess we have no choice. Either we do everything that is possible, and may seem to others as impossible, and just give up. Or we do everything that is really impossible and we remain alive. There’s one more basic thing that I think that people outside of Israel must realize, and if they understand and accept that, maybe other things will fall into place. For instance, we’re not the only people in the world who’ve had difficulties with neighbors; that has happened to many. We are the only country in the world whose neighbors do not say, “We are going to war because we want a certain piece of land from Israel,” or waterways or anything of that kind. We’re the only people in the world where our neighbors openly announce they just won’t have us here. And they will not give up fighting and they will not give up war as long as we remain alive. Here. So this is the crux of the problem: it isn’t anything concrete that they want from us. That’s why it doesn’t make sense when people say, “Give up this and give up the other place. Give up the Golan Heights,” for instance. What happened when we were not on the Golan Heights? We were not on the Golan Heights before ’67, and for 19 years, Syria had guns up there and shot at our agricultural settlements below. We were not on the Golan Heights! So what, if we give up the Golan Heights, they will stop shooting? We were not in the Suez Canal when the war started. It’s because Egypt and Syria and the other Arab countries refuse to acquiesce to our existence. Therefore there can be no compromise. They say we must be dead. And we say we want to be alive. Between life and death, I don’t know of a compromise. And that’s why we have no choice.”
“We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs - We have no place to go.” “I guess we have no choice. Either we do everything that is possible, and may seem to others as impossible, and just give up. Or we do everything that is really impossible and we remain alive. There’s one more basic thing that I think that people outside of Israel must realize, and if they understand and accept that, maybe other things will fall into place. For instance, we’re not the only people in the world who’ve had difficulties with neighbors; that has happened to many. We are the only country in the world whose neighbors do not say, “We are going to war because we want a certain piece of land from Israel,” or waterways or anything of that kind. We’re the only people in the world where our neighbors openly announce they just won’t have us here. And they will not give up fighting and they will not give up war as long as we remain alive. Here. So this is the crux of the problem: it isn’t anything concrete that they want from us. That’s why it doesn’t make sense when people say, “Give up this and give up the other place. Give up the Golan Heights,” for instance. What happened when we were not on the Golan Heights? We were not on the Golan Heights before ’67, and for 19 years, Syria had guns up there and shot at our agricultural settlements below. We were not on the Golan Heights! So what, if we give up the Golan Heights, they will stop shooting? We were not in the Suez Canal when the war started. It’s because Egypt and Syria and the other Arab countries refuse to acquiesce to our existence. Therefore there can be no compromise. They say we must be dead. And we say we want to be alive. Between life and death, I don’t know of a compromise. And that’s why we have no choice.”
Children were killed in these explosions. Unbelievable how blind you all are. This is once again an unacceptable attack by Israel. But because it's Hamas/Hezbollah who the Israel-controlled media paints as "the bad guys", and that Lebanese/Gazan/Iranians are apparently subhuman dimwits, it's fine. Just listen to yourselves. The brainwashing is complete.
seriously the response and upvotes on this site are insane. this was an indiscriminate and untargeted* attack - it's either terrorism or a war crime by whoever did it.
*setting off thousands of explosions without direct site of who you are blowing up is untargetted. However you secreted them into the supply chain, you have no idea who's holding it when it goes bang. Maybe it's your guy, maybe it's their kid playing with it
Yeah this has the feel of that scene in Scarface where Tony Montana is following the car in front of him and they want him to blow up the car…..but Tony Montana refuses to blow it up because it has kids in the car. And instead he shoots the driver in his car.
seriously the response and upvotes on this site are insane. this was an indiscriminate and untargeted* attack - it's either terrorism or a war crime by whoever did it.
*setting off thousands of explosions without direct site of who you are blowing up is untargetted. However you secreted them into the supply chain, you have no idea who's holding it when it goes bang. Maybe it's your guy, maybe it's their kid playing with it
Yeah this has the feel of that scene in Scarface where Tony Montana is following the car in front of him and they want him to blow up the car…..but Tony Montana refuses to blow it up because it has kids in the car. And instead he shoots the driver in his car.
“You don’t have the guts to look them in the eye when you kill em. You gotta hide behind that $&6,” -Tony Montana to the evil drug hitman
“We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs - We have no place to go.” “I guess we have no choice. Either we do everything that is possible, and may seem to others as impossible, and just give up. Or we do everything that is really impossible and we remain alive. There’s one more basic thing that I think that people outside of Israel must realize, and if they understand and accept that, maybe other things will fall into place. For instance, we’re not the only people in the world who’ve had difficulties with neighbors; that has happened to many. We are the only country in the world whose neighbors do not say, “We are going to war because we want a certain piece of land from Israel,” or waterways or anything of that kind. We’re the only people in the world where our neighbors openly announce they just won’t have us here. And they will not give up fighting and they will not give up war as long as we remain alive. Here. So this is the crux of the problem: it isn’t anything concrete that they want from us. That’s why it doesn’t make sense when people say, “Give up this and give up the other place. Give up the Golan Heights,” for instance. What happened when we were not on the Golan Heights? We were not on the Golan Heights before ’67, and for 19 years, Syria had guns up there and shot at our agricultural settlements below. We were not on the Golan Heights! So what, if we give up the Golan Heights, they will stop shooting? We were not in the Suez Canal when the war started. It’s because Egypt and Syria and the other Arab countries refuse to acquiesce to our existence. Therefore there can be no compromise. They say we must be dead. And we say we want to be alive. Between life and death, I don’t know of a compromise. And that’s why we have no choice.”
Drivel in today’s climate.
I have listened to IDF Spokesmen with English, Australian, American and Scottish accents.
The above all had places they could stay or go safely.
Fair questions. No, Israel's human rights and freedoms do not apply to their occupied population, and this, in my opinion, is the real existential threat to Israel. A self-imposed threat of their own failure to acknowledge the rights of the occupied. However, they do apply to Israeli citizens (jewish or arab)
I do still believe a two-state solution is the most likely, and functional solution. Once the dust settles from the 10/7 attacks and Gaza war, that will have to be re-evaluated. Mostly, the illegal seizure of occupied territory in West Bank is the single biggest threat to a 2 state solution and makes a single state solution the most likely the longer this goes on. Why Israel doesn't recognize this I don't really understand.
In general, I agree with your sentiments.
Strange that you still think a “two-state solution is the most likely”. It seems far from likely. It’s been too long and there is no real Palestine anymore, just scattered occupied territory.
The US and Israel are opposed to two-state and the only two major countries that consistently oppose resolutions to that effect in the UN, for whatever namesake that is worth. Nothing about it seems likely to change. Israel won’t stop until it has occupied all of Palestinian land because it has no compelling reason to yield anything. It’s too powerful to be stopped and it knows that. The US will just continue supporting Israel through that process. Israel recognizes all this very well.
Sadly, I think you are right. USA pay lip service to a 2-state solution but consistently block any moves or even statements in that direction (e.g. recognition of Palestine as a state). Regardless of the occupations in West Bank, etc there are zero sanctions from US to Israel, just more endless financial and military support.
In the long term It doesn't feel like this unconditional support has helped Israel, it's just enabled It to dig a hole it's hard to see a way out of, other than ethnically cleansing the region.
It feels like we are playing a long game.. towards that end while trying to gaslight our voters that we are somehow the "good guys" for hitting back against the "terrorists", and we really support peace, even though we aren't doing anything to give the occupied a future.
“We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs - We have no place to go.” “I guess we have no choice. Either we do everything that is possible, and may seem to others as impossible, and just give up. Or we do everything that is really impossible and we remain alive. There’s one more basic thing that I think that people outside of Israel must realize, and if they understand and accept that, maybe other things will fall into place. For instance, we’re not the only people in the world who’ve had difficulties with neighbors; that has happened to many. We are the only country in the world whose neighbors do not say, “We are going to war because we want a certain piece of land from Israel,” or waterways or anything of that kind. We’re the only people in the world where our neighbors openly announce they just won’t have us here. And they will not give up fighting and they will not give up war as long as we remain alive. Here. So this is the crux of the problem: it isn’t anything concrete that they want from us. That’s why it doesn’t make sense when people say, “Give up this and give up the other place. Give up the Golan Heights,” for instance. What happened when we were not on the Golan Heights? We were not on the Golan Heights before ’67, and for 19 years, Syria had guns up there and shot at our agricultural settlements below. We were not on the Golan Heights! So what, if we give up the Golan Heights, they will stop shooting? We were not in the Suez Canal when the war started. It’s because Egypt and Syria and the other Arab countries refuse to acquiesce to our existence. Therefore there can be no compromise. They say we must be dead. And we say we want to be alive. Between life and death, I don’t know of a compromise. And that’s why we have no choice.”
Drivel in today’s climate.
I have listened to IDF Spokesmen with English, Australian, American and Scottish accents.
The above all had places they could stay or go safely.
The same could be said of all the Arab (and Muslim) enemies around. Including Palestinians (employing your logic, of course).
Why would a winning nation give up their land and go anywhere? It´s there to stay, get used to it. It´s about time after 76 years...
As long as the narrative "from the river to the see" lives, there will be no compromise. So, the ball is on the Palestinian´s court, and it requires to get rid of Hamas. Full stop.
In fairness.. do u think they really do a great job of supporting human rights and personal freedoms in the west bank and Gaza? Hard not to see them as an authoritarian force in the region.
What does peace look like in Israel/Palestine to you? How many states?
One state? If one state (Israel), is it based on democracy? Hard to see that as it would be the end of their theocratic ethno state. A popular belief is that only ethnic cleansing can make a 1-state solution work for the Israelis (many feel this is their real plan).
Two states? How can Palestine work as a state now it is so sliced and diced by (illegal but state-supported) Israeli settlers. I've been there - it's untenable.
Everyone needs to support Israel's right to exist and defend itself - they are there for good now.
I do wish they could have stuck within borders that would have made future peace imaginable. 50% of the population in the region have no rights or future and are supposed to just accept that or get out and be a refugee somewhere else.
We cannot afford too much more of Israel.
No way they are here to stay.
The fear is how much of the rest of the world they will be able to ruin
I think it's generally best to accept the current reality and should aim to minimise suffering from this point on.
You might argue that Israel's foundation was wrong or unfair and based on atrocities. However any attempt to remove it can only cause endless suffering. Lots of nations were founded on atrocities and unfairness - everywhere in the Americas for e.g. - the world isn't fair.
Golda Meir is corect. The IDF/Mossad don't play by the "rules" hypocritically espoused by selfidentified "civilized" countries. There are reasons for this that include the incontestable reality of Hamas paragliders invading Israel and raping dismembering and torturing many hundreds last October not to mention decades of previous terrorism. I say this without denying the equal reality of Israeli fascism.
This is both predictable and inevitable.
The IDF/Mossad are smarter and more effective than most milintel services. They do not labor under scruples or diplomatic "niceties."
Their savage response does make the point they intend. Which is Dont F with the xhuck. The attack was inventive, original and very damaging....unlike most national defense posturing by western nations.
My Dad told me when I was young "Dont pick a fight with the Israelis...unless you are prepared to die for your cause." I have seen during my lifetime that almost nobody is....except Hamas and Hezbollah. They knew this would happen, and they are just as liable for the mass death resulting.
Most western politicos cant "win" a debate with either Israel or Hamas. Existential threat recalibrates "moral" principles and the prissy western interveners just dont get it and cant handle it.
Why dont rational actors just let them blow each other to bits?
US gives them billions upon billions every year and protects them in UN and World courts.
We have fought several wars in the ME (for them) and they have not once contributed troops.
And, of course, there is the USS Liberty. And Jonathan Pollard. The Lavon Affair.
Almost forgot. The Dancing Israelis and Urban Moving Systems
"We have fought several wars in the ME (for them) and they have not once contributed troops." This one isn't really fair. I assume you are talking about wars like Kuwait and Iraq and those were about a lot more than Israel. Also, no way the US wanted Israel as part of the coalition regardless -- that would have undermined the support of other Middle East countries.
I would say that the one real tangible benefit to the US from its relationship with Israel is likely intelligence sharing. That is definitely a two way street from which both sides benefit.
But if your general point is that Israel gets more out of the relationship than the US gets, that is almost certainly correct.
The war in terror targeting Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iran, Somalia, and Afghanistan was a Neocon plan all for the benefit of Israel, not America.
Read "A Clean Break" written by Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, the Wurmsers and other "Americans" loyal to Israel. It proposes using the US military for the benefit of Israel and it was presented to Israeli prime minister Netanyahu.
Israel gives us lies, not accurate intelligence, to sell their wars. Such as the WMDs and yellowcake lies as well as the Iran is weeks from having nukes that we have been hearing for nearly 3 decades.
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