'Common sense' doesn't have anything to do with what you just said lol. If an adult says 'I am 10 years old' should they attend middle school?
I’ll reply to you and kiltedrunner together here, since you both are struggling with this.
You can’t change your age. It is just a count of how many days you have been alive. I can’t go to the DMV and say, “I was actually born in 2008.”
I could, however, go to the DMV and have my sex changed on my license. It is mutable.
This is basic stuff.
Basic stuff? No. Biological male and female is basic stuff.
This recent "identifying" is complicated. The rules are not simple. They are as fluid as fashion with no categorical systemic positions. They sure look like fashion too which is emotion based vis a vis fact based.
For maximum brainwashing, the loudest voices march on attacking and accusing anyone with a different view of hatred or some sort of phobia. That is not basic. That is hysteria. Same thing the Nazis did. Disagree and you lose your job and employability this time.
This hysteria making up new rules as you go and changing the game constantly to fit your latest feelings versus facts is not basic. Forcing others to accept your position under threat of namecalling, doxing, threats, et al is the very definition of a runaway psychological reign of terror.
Dress and act however you want but don't try to force me to accept you and don't you dare attack me for having a different view derived my own free will.
This lunacy will pass, but not after it inflicts maximum damage. Shame on you.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
Wrong. Biological sex is *immutable*. After you’re dead and buried, bones can be examined and we can know with certainty if you were female or male.
Stop trying to inject science into the argument. If someone believes something to be true, then you have to abide by their belief. If you pay prostitutes to call you daddy, that makes you a father. It is inarguably true. As real as the unicorns in North Korea and their divine leader with no butthole.
Rightwing Cultural Warriors and their TEF allies are totally against hormone replacement therapy for minors. So they will not accept this compromise.
What's a TEF? Google tells me it's: A tracheoesophageal fistula (TEF) is an abnormal connection between your esophagus and trachea.
Did you mean TERF? Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism - a person whose views on gender identity are considered hostile to transgender people, or who opposes social and political policies designed to be inclusive of transgender people.
If it's TERF that's got to be one of the most asinine acronyms used to attack women. A male must of coined that term.
Seems out of character for you JAHJ.
I think TERF is a misnomer because I don't see there is nothing "radical" about those trans exclusionary people's version of feminism. And it's not just because they are willing to form an unholy alliance with Rightwing Cultural Warriors.
BTW, here is the origin of "TERF" explained by the originator herself. As far as I know, Viv Smythe is a cis woman.
Dress and act however you want but don't try to force me to accept you and don't you dare attack me for having a different view derived my own free will.
This lunacy will pass, but not after it inflicts maximum damage. Shame on you.
I’m not “attacking” you, but I am calling you out for being wrong and hate-filled. A racist Nazi has the freedom of speech to say racist, Nazi stuff. That doesn’t mean he is protected from people calling him out for being human garbage.
No one is going to inflict maximum damage. A girl ran a 5k. Chill out.
What I oppose - and what's not going to fly with the general public - is the demand that all unhappy, confused males who like dresses and "girly stuff" like Maddie - or who develop autogynephilia in adolescence like quite a few teenage boys do, especially in today's era of internet porn - be shoehorned into female sports and spaces.
Maddie was not a "gender confused male" who liked dresses and "girly stuffs." She liked dresses and girly stuffs, but her identity is way deeper than that. Her therapist confirmed that after diagnosing Maddie.
Why do you think you know better about trans children's identity than professionally certified psychiatrists who have examined numerous kids with gender issues and spent significant time with each one of them to reach their conclusions? How much experience do you have with psychiatry and how much time have you spent with diagnosing children with gender dysphoria?
Fargo, what you are describing is a Kafka trap, the idea that if you don't agree with someone or offer a different worldview, you must be toxic. I am surprised that people who practice this mode of argument don't remember history. As you point out, it didn't work out well.
When I was an undergrad, you could still offer other points of view. In my biology class, a religious student objected to the theory of evolution and said he didn't believe in it. The professor's answer was, that is fine, I not here to teach you what to believe. I am here to teach you science.
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"Comfort must not be expected by folks that go a pleasuring."
What I oppose - and what's not going to fly with the general public - is the demand that all unhappy, confused males who like dresses and "girly stuff" like Maddie - or who develop autogynephilia in adolescence like quite a few teenage boys do, especially in today's era of internet porn - be shoehorned into female sports and spaces.
Maddie was not a "gender confused male" who liked dresses and "girly stuffs." She liked dresses and girly stuffs, but her identity is way deeper than that. Her therapist confirmed that after diagnosing Maddie.
Why do you think you know better about trans children's identity than professionally certified psychiatrists who have examined numerous kids with gender issues and spent significant time with each one of them to reach their conclusions? How much experience do you have with psychiatry and how much time have you spent with diagnosing children with gender dysphoria?
Ahhh, the old 'nature vs nurture' dilemma; either Maddie was born in the wrong body or Maddie liked girly stuff so her parents treated her like a girl (even typing that sounds mysandristic - presumably a boy dressing like a girl doesn't make him any less a boy).
I suppose it could be true that someone is actually born in the wrong body, i.e., female brain/male body, although I'd be interested in seeing some scientific literature to study that. Maybe a male born with a smaller brain size and larger hippocampus? Low T? Who knows? Apparently no one...and that's the problem, not even professionally certified psychiatrists. So in the void comes feelings. Feelings should be respected but certainly doesn't trump biology.
So the argument should be centered on how to welcome gender dysphoria into society without coming at the expense of hard fought gains maybe by cis women. Medically transitioning before the age of consent is equally as bad an option as exclusion from society. How about we get those clinically trained psychiatrists to focus on the middle ground?
What's a TEF? Google tells me it's: A tracheoesophageal fistula (TEF) is an abnormal connection between your esophagus and trachea.
Did you mean TERF? Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism - a person whose views on gender identity are considered hostile to transgender people, or who opposes social and political policies designed to be inclusive of transgender people.
If it's TERF that's got to be one of the most asinine acronyms used to attack women. A male must of coined that term.
Seems out of character for you JAHJ.
I think TERF is a misnomer because I don't see there is nothing "radical" about those trans exclusionary people's version of feminism. And it's not just because they are willing to form an unholy alliance with Rightwing Cultural Warriors.
BTW, here is the origin of "TERF" explained by the originator herself. As far as I know, Viv Smythe is a cis woman.
What I oppose - and what's not going to fly with the general public - is the demand that all unhappy, confused males who like dresses and "girly stuff" like Maddie - or who develop autogynephilia in adolescence like quite a few teenage boys do, especially in today's era of internet porn - be shoehorned into female sports and spaces.
Maddie was not a "gender confused male" who liked dresses and "girly stuffs." She liked dresses and girly stuffs, but her identity is way deeper than that. Her therapist confirmed that after diagnosing Maddie.
Why do you think you know better about trans children's identity than professionally certified psychiatrists who have examined numerous kids with gender issues and spent significant time with each one of them to reach their conclusions? How much experience do you have with psychiatry and how much time have you spent with diagnosing children with gender dysphoria?
What do psychiatrists have to do with this? People do not have to see a psychiatrist to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria or to get a letter of support for medical transition. Most therapists in the US are social workers who have specialized in mental health. Not only this, but in-depth analysis and evaluation are discouraged when treating those claiming gender distress, as is consideration of comorbid mental health conditions and/or trauma.
One of the many reasons why people are upset is that mental health professionals and physicians are being pushed to abandon normal standards of care because such standards are considered oppressive by the gender mafia.
I'll patiently await your interconvertible argument in support of the statement "trans girls are girls." I have been reading arguments about this kind of issue since Juniper ran for the University of Montana and I still haven't seen such an argument made by anyone. You avoided saying I'm a bigot for thinking this runner is a boy, but you do say all my opinions on the issue are suspect or invalid because I won't accede to the argument (which no one ever actually makes) that he is actually she. So, please, make the argument. Not the argument that he has chosen to be "express as a female" but that he is literally a girl. Go on. If you can do it, you'll be a hero of the trans activist movement.
I have no interest in being a hero of the trans activist movement. I'm just in favor of common sense.
Soren would say, "I am a girl." That's my proof. She should run as a girl.
Lenny!
Seriously, you're killing yourself here. As per your post, "I'm just in favor of common sense. Soren would say, "I am a girl." That's my proof. She should run as a girl".
Common sense is defined as:
"Common sense is sound, practical judgement concerning everyday matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge in a manner that is shared by nearly all people".
So, just to be clear...AGAIN!, there is NO disagreement with nearly all people that anyone wishing to identify as to whatever they chose to identify as is perfectly ok. Me included! The issue that causes division and push back is that ANY person(s) whose personal lifestyle choices affect others in a negative and or antagonistic way. As insignificant it may seem to be, such as a local high school cross country meet in Maine, it's not insignificant to those running who feel cheated by having a biological male, who is physically superior to them, out perform them.
It's as simple as that. There's no fight here, unfortunately that is not the view of those trans athletes and their supporters that know it's unfair for them to compete against biological girls. The athletes, parents, and administrators who support and condone this are selfish and are indirectly harming the trans female as a person.
If she was in California and e.g. aiming for top 100 and someone knocked her out of the top 100 in similar circumstances I'm sure she'd have a similar argument. It's not about the place for the sake of place, i.e. 2nd place. It's about the fairness and limitations.
Exactly. Some girl didn't make state because there are only so many individuals that get to go that didn't qualify on a team. How does the top "real girl" that didn't get to go to state feal about this? Not good I'm sure!
Your argument doesn't make too much sense, at least to me. You race who turns up in your category. It's like saying if your daughter lived in Kenya she would have to race for 1000th place because the high schoolers there are so good, she's lucky she is competing in California.
You can't just write everything off as being fine because there are other races that are faster!
As far as caring about "her performance against herself and doing the best she can regardless of the competition" - racing doesn't work like that for most people. You don't turn up to the Olympics and think oh well, I'll just do the best I can against myself. You turn up to try to beat who is there. Which is why, for example, if there is unfairness in e.g. the women's 800m it rankles because people are deprived of medals that they should've won. There are rules to try to keep it a level playing field - categories such as age, sex etc.
I understand that you're trying to draw a comparison between the racing in Maine and the racing in California but it simply doesn't work like that. It would be unfair in EITHER state. If someone raced as a male one year then the next year raced as a female, they still have the advantages from their prior racing and training but not so much that, all of the biological advantages (testosterone but not just limited to that by any means).
I can see why she was upset.
The sport is fair enough. The girl who finished 2nd here got recognized as the 2nd place runner. The race was to see who ran the fastest over the whole course, and she did second best. Every person in a race could say, “I would have finished ____ spots higher if only _______.”
The top "real girl" individual that didn't get to go to state was robbed!
You should change your username to 'misogynist old man'. Disgraceful the way you dismiss girls and women again and again on here. You are in no way wise. You can't even imagine the female experience, old sexist man.
Wow, so much vitriol. My opinions on this topic are well informed by the women my in my life. In my neck of the woods, you are the misogynist. Full stop.
Typical LRC parent, “Somebody trip that f’in boy. Yeah, get off the course, BOY!! I’d tackle him if I was fast enough to catch him!! My daughter was entitled to silver! She has been robbed of her dignity, her identity as a runner….as a human. She may not even be able to walk on at Maine Community College now that she got bronze instead of silver!! Daughter, you should be furious at what’s been done to you, and clearly there was no point in trying any longer when this sort of thing is allowed in the sport. Why don’t you just quit, the sport is overrun with trans athletes making a mockery of our values.”
Wise Old Parent, “Soren ran within the rules and has every right to run in the race. Her or their presence in the race did not interfere with your ability to do your very best and put all of your hard work and training to the test. Congratulations on getting bronze. You ran a great race and I’m proud of you. The difference between silver and bronze or 10th or 100th is not how you validate yourself or validate the work you did this season. If it is you are in for a lot of disappointment going forward in this sport. Who knows, if you train wisely this summer you might be able to break 19:00 on this course someday.“
Some real girl didn't get to go to state as an individual qualifier because of the guy winner. Seems to me like you are not for women.
I hope you are a troll - if so 10/10 because it got me riled up.
Your portrayal of the “Typical LRC Parent” is an obvious straw man. Has anybody in this thread suggested violence towards the trans person who won the race? No. Nobody has said anything about 2nd place being “robbed of her dignity”. This was all made up by you, a mentally ill person.
Why shouldn’t athletes derive validation from their finishing place in a cross country race? The higher up you finish in a race, the better your performance. Achieving a high performance level in any sport is admirable and something to be proud of. It is even more admirable when an athlete improves their performance as measured by finishing higher up in the race from year to year.
For some people, 20:30 may actually require some work to achieve - not every girl who comes out for cross country walks around in sub 20 5k shape.
All in all, you are a deranged individual with an idiotic perspective on the world. Women and girls should be allowed to compete against women and girls.
You are delusional if you don’t think these boards are full of hate for these athletes. I was at the meets in the CIF over the last few years when trans athletes were competing and these are direct quotes from hecklers. So much hate directed at minors competing within the rules. It was despicable and also endorsed by many LRC posters in previous threads.
It isn't kind enabling a kid's delusion. You can be kind to people who want to identify as the opposite gender but it isn't helpful to enable their delusion.
I don't have kids and I'm a male (last time I checked), so I really don't have a vested interest in this argument. What wise old man said was correct. The trans kid was competing within the rules set by some scholastic administrators. If the parents and kids don't like it, they should elect people who see the idiocy of allowing boys to compete against girls. But as of now, they elect progressives who put the biology second and the feelings of some confused boys first. And they keep electing them. There will soon be a Lia Thomas in every sport. It's already happening in cycling.
The real girls should protest by not running. I think that is the only way this will stop if you can't get sane politicians to enact sane laws.
One of the bio males which was in the news last May in CA over who qualified in track in the State meet is this year running as a male. People speaking out can effect change. Keep it up.
The Guardian article says that Maddie's parents decided their son is a girl because as a tot, Maddie displayed tastes and behaviors that the parents felt were entirely unsuitable for boys.
No. The parents did not make that decision. They took Maddie to a therapist.
Parents should protect their kids against "therapists".
Does anyone know if Stark-Chessa has done any sort of body transitioning, IE hormonal therapy, etc? If not, she will not be eligible to NCAA race- I'm confused as to why more HS sports governing bodies have not adopted these rules. IAAF is even more strict.
I'm baffled as to why it's controversial a transgender female should have actually transition their body before they can compete. Testosterone alone makes a large difference in athletic prowess.
A follow-up to the Testosterone point-
The WADA concentration limit for women is 2.5 nmol/liter. Anything under 8.7 nmol/liter would be considered low for a male. It's reasonable to assume someone with a male teenage body would be higher than this- in effect, allowing transgender females to dope.
I believe the WADA limit for women is 5.0nmol/l, with anything under 10.0nmol/l being considered low for a male, although there will be plenty of male endurance athletes under that.
Semenya had to get her testosterone under 10nmol/l to compete back around 2010.
Ahhh, the old 'nature vs nurture' dilemma; either Maddie was born in the wrong body or Maddie liked girly stuff so her parents treated her like a girl (even typing that sounds mysandristic - presumably a boy dressing like a girl doesn't make him any less a boy).
I suppose it could be true that someone is actually born in the wrong body, i.e., female brain/male body, although I'd be interested in seeing some scientific literature to study that. Maybe a male born with a smaller brain size and larger hippocampus? Low T? Who knows? Apparently no one...and that's the problem, not even professionally certified psychiatrists. So in the void comes feelings. Feelings should be respected but certainly doesn't trump biology.
So the argument should be centered on how to welcome gender dysphoria into society without coming at the expense of hard fought gains maybe by cis women. Medically transitioning before the age of consent is equally as bad an option as exclusion from society. How about we get those clinically trained psychiatrists to focus on the middle ground?
There is already scientific literature that studied brain anatomy and function of trans people and we already know they are different from cis people. We don't know why it happens, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. It is not about "feelings."
And you cannot "nurture" a trans kid just like you cannot "nurture" a cis kid. A trans kid is trans whether the parents support their identity or not. If "grooming" works, then every kid will be cis hetero.
And why is medical transitioning for minors bad? A kid who has had consistent gender identity starting at a young age (3-4) through the onset of puberty is going to have stable identity for the rest of their life. Most kids who regret transition did not have consistent, persistent and insistent identity for 7-8 years before they started medical transition.
Do we deny elective medical procedure because 1-2% of patients may regret? Then we can hardly do anything.
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