Matt Hart's new Nike book is great - Salazar once tried to kiss Kara Goucher and said Solinsky ran 26:59 because of thyroid meds

drug drug wrote:

I also checked online and thyroid hormone therapy is administered by both pills and injections.

And you still haven’t mentioned the unethical nature of athletes being coached to deplete themselves before seeing doctor and being told what to say to obtain these drugs to use them as PEDs.

They purposely used the drugs, meant for people with a real sickness, to raise testosterone, lose weight, and recover from workouts.

If you can’t see why that’s unethical, your moral compass is off.

Don't check online -- check what the athletes used. Kara Goucher wasn't in tears because Salazar tried to hand her needles of thyroid hormone.

I can see why the coach and the doctor would be considered unethical. You call thyroid hormone a PED -- according to WADA, that is not correct. You say "raise testosterone, lose weight and recover from workouts", after you already told me "the peak is normal thyroid function".

rekrunner wrote:

drug drug wrote:

It is unethical for athletes to manipulate medical tests and lie to a doctor to obtain medications meant for the sick in an effort to raise their testosterone, lose weight, and recover from workouts in an effort to improve their athletic performance against others not using these drugs.

I don't find it particularly unethical to " raise their testosterone, lose weight, and recover from workouts" by legal means.

But according to you, it's not really the thyroid medication per se, but the athlete "deception" to get on it? It depends on his intention and state of mind?

What if the athlete genuinely complains about chronic fatigue, and, on the recommendation of his coach, goes to a sports specialist endocrinologist? Then it would be ethical?

As you proved to us, the line between normal function and medical need is not well defined.

What are the odds that several elite athletes all have thyroid issues and asthma ? And.... wouldn’t you know it? The meds for these ailments just so happens to enhance athletic performance?

Salazar is a black eye on the sport. Every athlete he “ coached” is tainted...... and their races should be erased from history.

What are the odds that 100% of US sub 27 minute 10000m runners and 90% of the US sub 13 minute 5000m runners required thyroid hormone therapy?

What are the odds that the top US distance runners for each decade 80s (Salazar), 90s (Kennedy), and 2000s (Rupp and Hall) were all diagnosed and treated by Dr. Brown for hormone therapy?

What are the odds that Salazar, Kennedy, Rupp, Hall, Tegenkamp, Solinski, Ritizenheim all suffered from hormone issues and went to the same doctor to be diagnosed and treated?

It’s obviously they all sought to use thyroid hormone therapy as a PED!

Yusef Scummm wrote:

What are the odds that several elite athletes all have thyroid issues and asthma ? And.... wouldn’t you know it? The meds for these ailments just so happens to enhance athletic performance?

Salazar is a black eye on the sport. Every athlete he “ coached” is tainted...... and their races should be erased from history.

If the treatment was exercise induced, the odds would be great.

If a good coach also sent athletes to a doctor for treatment that doesn't enhance performance, the odds would be high.

WADA said thyroid hormone wasn't performance enhancing.

With respect to Salazar's athletes, Tygart looked, leaving no stone unturned, and could not find any doped NOP athlete.

drug drug wrote:

What are the odds that 100% of US sub 27 minute 10000m runners and 90% of the US sub 13 minute 5000m runners required thyroid hormone therapy?

What are the odds that the top US distance runners for each decade 80s (Salazar), 90s (Kennedy), and 2000s (Rupp and Hall) were all diagnosed and treated by Dr. Brown for hormone therapy?

What are the odds that Salazar, Kennedy, Rupp, Hall, Tegenkamp, Solinski, Ritizenheim all suffered from hormone issues and went to the same doctor to be diagnosed and treated?

It’s obviously they all sought to use thyroid hormone therapy as a PED!

Salazar and Kennedy were treated by Dr. Brown?

Salazar took thyroid hormone therapy?

What are the odds that you are making up these facts, and that you haven't made up others?

The odds of Nike sending Nike athletes to a Nike doctor who gives similar treatement are pretty high.

Whatever the athletes sought -- WADA considers thyroid hormone is not performance enhancing.

Rival competitors should be comforted to know that.

Even so, performance enhancing drugs that are not banned by WADA are not considered cheating, as no rules were broken. In this respect, assuming thyroid hormone could enhance performance beyond normal thyroid function, it would not be different than caffeine, iron supplements, vitamin B12, isotonic drink, or protein powder.

Dr Yuengling wrote:

Thanks for telling me what I prefer. I'm not commenting on the guilt, innocence, or morality of Alberto Salazar. I'm pointing out that the primary sources for any research into the NOP at this point are disgruntled former members. That doesn't mean they're wrong or that they're lying, but they are definitely biased. It's going to be difficult, at least for the time being, to get a well rounded and objective perspective because there's no incentive for active athletes and/or coaches to comment. Guys like Julian, Engels, Rupp, Farah, etc.

Didn't Mo throw him under the bus?

That's not entirely the case. Science knows it's an enhancer but there are people out there that do require this medication while not cheating. Thyroid meds are way more beneficial than an isotonic drink. Come on Rek you're taking the Micky out on this one.

Subway Surfers wrote:

That's not entirely the case. Science knows it's an enhancer but there are people out there that do require this medication while not cheating. Thyroid meds are way more beneficial than an isotonic drink. Come on Rek you're taking the Micky out on this one.

I suppose it can be a great enhancer when there is a medical need for it.

For those with a normal functioning thyroid, supplemental therapy is considered not performance enhancing. Even "drug drug" showed us that: the "peak performance is normal thyroid function", but wants to argue against his own link.

Ultimately, the arguments for performance enhancing are not with me, but with WADA. WADA found the arguments to ban thyroid non-compelling. So do I.

Everyone can try to argue the "real reality" is contrary to WADA's stated opinion, but I will continue to dismisses this as uncompelling arguments by parties lacking information.

What can persuade me to change this position is WADA changing their position. Until then it breaks no anti-doping rules, and is not considered to enhance performance.

This article says Bob Kennedy was on thyroid hormone therapy.

Jenny Simpson was on it too.

If someone truly needs thyroid hormone therapy they need it for life. Their body simply doesn’t produce it.

Dr. Brown used an unusually high level for “normal level” for the athletes. Athletes would have been deemed healthy at any other doctor, were determined to be needing hormone therapy by Brown. Also, athletes unnecessarily depleted themselves before seeing him and were coached by Salazar on what to say in order to receive the drug.

Hormone therapy is administered with pills and injections. Many athletes have stated that Salazar used it in his athletes to raise testosterone, lower weight and recover from workouts.

This is clearly a very strong performance enhancer.

Just because WADA does not currently have the research findings to determine it a PED does not mean it does not work as a PED.

Salazar and Brown know more about its effects on distance runners than anyone in the world. They have been experimenting with it for decades. If it didn’t work, why did all the top athletes use it?

The United States Doping Agency requested that thyroid hormone therapy be banned but WADA did not have enough evidence or an effective means to test it and had to deny this request.

Clearly the US Doping Agency view thyroid hormone therapy as a PED or they would not have demanded it to be banned!

United States Anti-Doping Agency that is

So were you wrong to say Bob Kennedy was diagnosed and treated by Dr. Brown? Your link says "Brown or another physician".

And were you wrong to say that Salazar took thyroid hormone?

Now you claim Jenny Simpson was on thyroid hormone too? Do you have a source for that, or is that also wrong?

Apparently she actually was treated by Dr. Brown, but I don't ever recall actually seeing what she was treated for.

But it doesn't matter because athletes can see endocrinologists and get WADA legal treatments with a doctor's prescription.

If Dr. Brown used a low threshold to put athletes on thyroid, why would the athletes first need to deplete themselves and be coached how to get it?

What about Solinsky, who wasn't coached by Salazar? Did he deplete himself first? Was he coached by Schumacher what to say? If the answer is no, then his use doesn't meet your definition of unethical, and you should withhold your judgement.

It looks like you are still trying to argue that thyroid is a performance enhancer, pages after you realized such arguments would be pointless.

Your unchanging arguments remain uncompelling.

WADA was very clear: "The LiEG still considered that they were not performance enhancing"

They didn't say they needed more research to before they could reach this consideration.

They had reached this consideration before, and upon the renewed question from USADA and UKAD, arrived at the same consideration again.

drug drug wrote:

The United States Doping Agency requested that thyroid hormone therapy be banned but WADA did not have enough evidence or an effective means to test it and had to deny this request.

Clearly the US Doping Agency view thyroid hormone therapy as a PED or they would not have demanded it to be banned!

Yes both USADA and UKAD gave uncompelling arguments.

I think they just argued the equivalent of "a lot of athletes are using it".

Just as WADA called them uncompelling, so I call your reliance on uncompelling arguments uncompelling.

What is puzzling me most is I don't know why you gave me a link (the one that showed a bunch of pills) that contradicts you, and then you ignore your own source. On the specific question of performance enhancing, you showed me:

"One of the differences that thyroid replacement has from other forms of sports supplementation is that there is a clear peak point – normal thyroid function."

Furthermore:

"Thyroid replacement in the absence of real deficiency could create a hyperthyroid state which would possibly hurt athletic performance as much a hypothyroidism."

This is mainstream medical conventional thinking on thyroid for sports performance: could be the same, could be worse, but certainly not better.

So US and UK anti doping agencies see thyroid hormone therapy as a PED that should be banned and you still see it as a black and white case of legal equals ethical? Is your brain incapable of rationalizing the issue and making logical conclusions?

Do you think Jenny Simpson was seeing Dr. Brown for something different than all the other athletes? Can’t you make the logical leap that if you are an elite distance runner you see an endocrinologist specialist in thyroid hormone therapy for distance runners for thyroid hormone therapy.

You are pathetically grasping at straws to defend cheats using thyroid hormone therapy as a PED.

drug drug wrote:

So US and UK anti doping agencies see thyroid hormone therapy as a PED that should be banned and you still see it as a black and white case of legal equals ethical? Is your brain incapable of rationalizing the issue and making logical conclusions?

Do you think Jenny Simpson was seeing Dr. Brown for something different than all the other athletes? Can’t you make the logical leap that if you are an elite distance runner you see an endocrinologist specialist in thyroid hormone therapy for distance runners for thyroid hormone therapy.

You are pathetically grasping at straws to defend cheats using thyroid hormone therapy as a PED.

Did USADA and UKAD say "PED"?

My brain knows the clear meaning of "uncompelling", and the clear meaning of "clear peak point ... normal thyroid function" and the clear meaning of "possibly hurt athletic performance".

What you want to call "logical" requires favorable assumptions to lead to your logical conclusion. Since you have no link for Jenny, I will assume you don't really know.

It is not cheating to use thyroid hormones, as it breaks no rules.

And WADA considers it, and reconsidered it, that it is not performance enhancing.

So probably the most illogical thing you can say is I am "grasping at straws", or that I am "defending cheats" or that "thyroid hormone therapy" is "a PED".

Google Jenny Simpson thyroid hormone

You’ll see it’s pretty obvious she used it

The WSJ reports that American distance runners Ryan Hall, Galen Rupp, Amy Yoder Begley, Bob Kennedy, and Patrick Smyth have all acknowledged being treated for thyroid problems by Brown

Kennedy was on it

Acknowledge that!