Cain has 2 mile and Tuohy has 3200. Yes the 2 mile is faster.
Talking about drafting, we had a 10:30 3200 girl do a time trial today with a boy pacing her perfectly. She went through at 5:15 and then ran 5:30 for a time 15 seconds slower than her race PR. I realize that it is only 1 example but I really believe that very few people can run their best outside of a real race.
Also just listened to the MILESPLIT interview. I know now why Brown improved from last year. She is only 16!
astro wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse but the following video summaries the studies. Essentially a 4 minute miler gets a 4 second per mile boost by drafting alone and a 6 minute miler a 6 second boost, etc:
https://youtu.be/3xp6D1MP2hgNow here there wasn't just standard drafting. For most of the race she was carefully wedged between two male runners. This likely increased the draft effect.
Even assuming just a 10 second boost from drafting, there is another very important element. Which is that the wire to wire drafting saved a lot of energy. In a 3200 that is extremely significant. It is the difference between still having the energy to maintain pace and to kick the last two laps. It is the difference between her being able to keep up with the runner who jumps on at the end to pace her from her hip. And recall that the male runners were running solely to keep her in ideal drafting range. She did not have to catch them or keep up with them. The lead runner even repeatedly slows down to make sure she stays in contact.
So all and all I think my estimate of a 12-15 second time boost is probably dead on. This was a 9:50s run boosted to 9:40 by how the run was rigged. As any type of record, calling it a travesty is more than fair.
Again, I could care less about who does what.
First off, since when has two runners been a platoon? I have a friend in the Marines who would have just gone down with a headache from the sheer stupidity of that statement. A platoon is from around 16-44 soldiers (and I'm pretty sure most soldiers wouldn't be caught dead in what those guys were wearing- runners aside). That caveat out of the way, you seem to be missing my point. If, as you say, the drafting took 12 whole seconds off the time, then she would have just time trialed a 9:51.whatever it was 3200m. Which, first off, is only 4 or 5 seconds slower than Tuohy. And she would have done it entirely solo, without even people in front of her to lap or the race day adrenaline. I would say that's worth 12 seconds easy. That's my entire point. Racing and time trialing are two different things. In identical conditions you will run faster in the race than in the time trial.
Second, I'm not one of the rabid sycophants shouting that Brynn Brown is the new "Queen of Track and Field". I'm just saying that it was a very impressive time, and should at least be acknowledged when ranking these guys. Honestly, who knows what some others could do, Tuohy hasn't exactly posted any time trials that I know of and most people are pretty focused on the mile for some reason. As far as I know of, only Cole Sprout and Brown have dropped impressive 32 times. So I'm not going to go on about Brown's greatness forever, I'm just going to say it again: Racing and time trialing are two different things. In identical conditions you will run faster in the race than in the time trial. In my opinion, all of these kids are straight-up awesome, so I don't really care who's doing better, it's not like I see any of them at races. And also, the high 9's time was dropped around the beginning of March. For those of us paying attention, it is now almost the end of May. Is it that inconceivable that someone might have gotten faster in that time frame? 10 seconds isn't really unheard of in a 2 mile for a PR in one week, let alone a couple months of hard training.
If drafting was a lot easier than racing, than elites would be running 3:29 1500s in practice to prepare for big meets, or just to get better PRs.
Eliud wasn't racing for his 1:59, but had very much a race mentality and atmosphere for it, along with the trampoline technology on his feet.
YMMV wrote:
If drafting was a lot easier than racing, than elites would be running 3:29 1500s in practice to prepare for big meets, or just to get better PRs.
Eliud wasn't racing for his 1:59, but had very much a race mentality and atmosphere for it, along with the trampoline technology on his feet.
that's what I'm saying. Drafting/pacers/time trials in general tend to be a lot harder than an equivalant time in a race. Identical conditions, the race is actually easier due to the amount of adrenaline- you can go harder
Astro ignoring the fact that I already showed him the drafting was at most 11 seconds, but much more realistically about 3 seconds...nice!
They are different things. But no one is running faster in a race than in this sort of "time trial" with equal effort. Just physics.
Oh you did? Strange how I missed our while citing the actual studies. But ok.
astro wrote:
They are different things. But no one is running faster in a race than in this sort of "time trial" with equal effort. Just physics.
That's my point entirely. It's not "equal effort". It takes relatively less effort to run a time in a race than in a time trial. If she can do a 9:40 with pacers/drafting in a time trial, then lets say you're right and she would only have done 9:49 (actually, that's your math, buddy. 5 minute pace=5 seconds per milex2 miles=+10 seconds) at that effort. It takes less effort to race that pace, so she would have gone faster than 9:49. Ten seconds time trial to race isn't really that uncommon.
*note when I say "easier" I mean running max in a race will yield faster times than running max in a time trial, because in a race you're adrenaline boosted.
Also, hasn't some of the other physics brought up been that if you fall out of like 6 feet range you don't get as much effect? If the last 3 laps were out of that, then it's more like 7 seconds.
Disagree. All things being equal this wad designed to facilitate a faster time than could be achieved in a race. My assumption is that it was equivalent to another 9:50s effort.
But you know what, we will have to see.
astro wrote:
Disagree. All things being equal this wad designed to facilitate a faster time than could be achieved in a race. My assumption is that it was equivalent to another 9:50s effort.
But you know what, we will have to see.
I'll agree with having to see. Honestly, I'm not even sure she's the best, just that she laid down a really good time. A race like the sub 4 attempt tomorrow with all the best girls would probably put down any doubt.
While it was certainly designed to be faster than a usual time trial, I'm thinking that it was possible that it was orchestrated as such to make up for the lack of race-day adrenaline, which is why I think that with some proper competition, she'd be able to make the time again, or at least near it. If her and Tuohy went head to head, I'd expect to see at least one of them down in that time, just because of the competition. No idea who'd win at this point though, though the edge probably goes to Tuohy for track record and sheer experience.
I have thought all along the biggest benefits of this set up were the steady pace at the right pace and not ever having to lead or pass anyone. She did an interview on Milesplit and she says how she was very relaxed through the first mile, partly because she was running behind someone who was very relaxed - apparently someone capable of a handling a faster pace. So the non competitive nature of this run was also a benefit.
Her training is 60 or so miles per week, which for a hs junior does seem like a lot. This includes some "off" days. She talked about doing both NXN and FL next year, and then World XC as well. That might be a long XC season.
I hope she stays healthy.
Part of the challenge in running well during an actual race is that the athlete is dealing with competition, anxiety, pressure. That they have run on the races schedule regardless of how they feel. That is part of what makes performing well in competition so difficult. Anyone who has trained and run a race has had much better training days then race days. I would guarantee that top runners have probably run faster in training then in their official races, "time trial" or not. Knowing how difficult it is to perform under the gun during actual competition is, all other objections aside, why I find the idea of including training times as record times so offensive. And how can we establish that other athletes have not run faster during training or workouts.
I thought that you were just unhappy that a runner is clearly faster than Tuohy. But you have now shown that you truly believe elite runners can run a faster time in practice than in a race. Most runners can't come close in practice even with the best pacers. Very few can get in the neighborhood. But none can run faster. None.
4 minute milers run 8x400 at race pace for a reason, because if they bump up to 800, they are almost cooked after a 1:59 in practice. If they try for 1200, they run 3:01. If they try for a mile, it can be an ugly 59-60-63-65. If a 4 minute miler was capable of sub 4 in practice, we would have them do it followed by 8x200 in 29 and they would have more confidence than you can imagine. You know why? If somebody runs 3:59 in practice, they will run 3:55 in a race. If somebody runs 9:39 in practice and they have perfect pacers forming a wedge, they are ready for 9:30 in a race. Any good runner or coach will agree.
Ok then. So we now have drafting and pacing have no effect on times and no distance runner has ever run faster in training than in a real race. Shows what I know. :)
Drafting and pacing do help. But being paced while not in a race is nowhere near the same as competing in a meaningful race that does not have a pacer. Feel free to poll all of your D1 coach friends or elite college or pro runners. You can even poll some high level high school coaches like the Hunters. 99% will confirm that races produce faster results. Did you watch Drew's time trial last week? I guarantee that he would have run 15 seconds faster if he was in a race.
I still don’t get how you don’t understanding pacing and drafting. Yes there are benefits, but in something as short as a 2 mile they are significantly more psychological rather than physiological. And misunderstanding is really about brynns race. I call it a race because that is most likely what she would call it. In fact, I would bet that in this situation we could use race and time trial (with pacers, drafting, whatever you feel like) as the same thing. You calling this practice or a workout or putting everything in quotes leads you to believe that somehow this is not a race, where to the girl, it is a race. You need to broaden your perspective and realize that not only your thinking is what matters.
astro wrote:
Part of the challenge in running well during an actual race is that the athlete is dealing with competition, anxiety, pressure. That they have run on the races schedule regardless of how they feel. That is part of what makes performing well in competition so difficult. Anyone who has trained and run a race has had much better training days then race days. I would guarantee that top runners have probably run faster in training then in their official races, "time trial" or not. Knowing how difficult it is to perform under the gun during actual competition is, all other objections aside, why I find the idea of including training times as record times so offensive. And how can we establish that other athletes have not run faster during training or workouts.
On one hand, I agree. Part of a race is the competition and pressure, and that produces adrenaline. But when everything comes together in a race, it produces times faster than any time trial could ever, because they've been stewing in adrenaline for at least 8 hours, probably more. Also, I'm never going to advocate a time trial like this to be a record time; I just think it should definitely be counted when considering the athlete's fitness.
astro - for f's sake, shut TF up. you are a loser!
Nope. Sorry fanboy but I just pointed out the obvious.
On the subject in cycling they analogize the draft effect to an elastic band. When a rider is struggling uphill they can be pulled along up the mountain at a faster speed then they can achieve alone if they can just hold the wheel of the faster rider. Going uphill in cycling the average speed is 11 mph btw. But if they lose contact, if the elastic snaps as the expression goes in the sport, they can lose minutes. Their speed will fall off substantially. You see this in every major race, just as you see weaker riders getting pulled along in every mountain stage.
It really should not be that upseting to discuss such a well established phenomenon.
astro goes home crying after Daschbach "drafts" for 90% of race!!