Am I the only one who thinks it's NOT THE SHOES!!!!!!

No, you're not the only ignorant person in denial of all the data. ALL of the scientific studies and analyses show a significant effect. Show me one, just one, legit study that disagrees. All that you denialists have are anecdotes. We are well past the point where any reasonable person can continue to deny the data.

I have ZERO respect for anyone who says, "These shoes are no better than any other shoes because correlation/placebo/whatever/etc." Even if we all agreed that the current studies are not 100% conclusive, that's only at most an argument for agnosticism--at most. That's not an argument for the opposite conclusion. It's only an argument in favor of agnosticism. Show me one, just one, reasonable person who's saying "placebo/correlation/whatever/etc." and then advocating for agnosticism. Not one person is doing that. Every single person who says "placebo/correlation/whatever/etc." insists that the VFs are no better than any other shoe.

I could respect someone who says, "I don't think the studies and data we have so far are conclusive enough to convince me, so I don't know if the shoes offer an advantage." That would be an actual somewhat reasonable opinion to hold. But saying, "The studies/data aren't conclusive enough for me, therefore I'm going to assert that the opposite is true based on an anecdote," is just blatant insanity.

If all of the evidence points in one direction, but you continue to insist on the opposite conclusion just because it can't be proven 100%, then you are insane. If you're placing a bet on something that has a 99% chance of happening, do you bet against it just because the odds aren't 100%? That is patently insane. The evidence may not (and probably never can) prove 100% that the VFs provide a significant advantage, but the evidence we do have is definitely well above 50% at this point. The only reasonable bet at this point is to admit that the VFs most likely do provide a significant advantage.

I don’t think that it is the shoes. I think that Nike want people to think it is the shoes, because it sells shoes. However, it also clouds the discussion about their athletes doping and the Salazar snafu. New ad, “Wear the Vapor Fly, legalized doping!”

strange that the new 10k WR was run in another shoe. So that athlete not only did outrun every other runner ever but also all the other shoes. your theory is funny but hard evidence shows the worlds fastest shoe is the takumi sen

True, Nike will Hand pick all Athletes . The Best athletes in America are NFL, and PGA Golfers . It is also no surprise that Nike has the top stable of these athletes , and are the highest paid.

Sports like Basketball , are just tall black people who can reach over 10 feet .

The discussion has become incredibly irritating, though, because, as you say, we can't really know how much (in terms of actual time in an actual race) they're helping; how much the advantage differs by elite, subelite, hobby jogger, shuffler status; whether it's the foam, the plate, the low weight, one or the other, a combination? Everyone is in their corner screaming the most ridiculous things: Running is ruined forever! It's not the shoes! My name is Greg!

The argument over WRs and elites is something else and something I, for one, care much less about. For people actually wearing them in marathons, whether 2:30 or 3:45, they're still the lightest and best (cushion, comfort, etc) shoe available. If someone trains hard for an event and, on some sort of principle, doesn't want to wear them, I mean, I guess, Cool, do you, dude. But so much of the nonsense argument is coming from people who either don't run at all or don't run marathons. Those people I really wish would shut up.

Again, why would people wear them if it's not the shoes?

What about the psychological component? If I buy expensive shoes to make me go faster, I’m going to feel faster and push harder. Might that be a placebo?

Karl Hungus wrote:

What about the psychological component? If I buy expensive shoes to make me go faster, I’m going to feel faster and push harder. Might that be a placebo?

It's not even just placebo....the mind plays an enormous role in endurance. Feeling less tired or stronger or whatever can translate into that actual thing.

But this is the same thing as above...placebo/mental aspect is likely not 0 and could be a significant factor, but imaging it's all mental is ridiculous.

Karl Hungus wrote:

What about the psychological component? If I buy expensive shoes to make me go faster, I’m going to feel faster and push harder. Might that be a placebo?

Could this be true with downhill marathons too? People think if they run St. George it gives them an advantage, so they go for it? The 2,000' drop doesn't really matter?

At first, I thought the shoe was more hype because the Kipchoge time trials were set up on perfect courses with pacers blocking the wind the whole time. That definitely made a difference of a couple minutes. That can't be denied. Over the last couple years, I have seen the results and am convinced the shoes DO make a difference. Would that be another 2 minutes for the marathon? That's possible.

Is 2 or 3 minutes going to make a difference for somebody running 305 or 308? Not really. It could make a difference for somebody running 259 instead of 302. It REALLY makes a difference if somebody runs a 159 in an actual race compared to 202.

One name per week. Not a registered user wrote:

At first, I thought the shoe was more hype because the Kipchoge time trials were set up on perfect courses with pacers blocking the wind the whole time. That definitely made a difference of a couple minutes. That can't be denied. Over the last couple years, I have seen the results and am convinced the shoes DO make a difference. Would that be another 2 minutes for the marathon? That's possible.

Is 2 or 3 minutes going to make a difference for somebody running 305 or 308? Not really. It could make a difference for somebody running 259 instead of 302. It REALLY makes a difference if somebody runs a 159 in an actual race compared to 202.

And this gets to the crux of all the freak out....if the difference is 259/302 or 305/308.... (1) Who cares?! (2) There is never going to be a way to show, definitively, that it was the shoes. Or to what extent it was the shoes... Especially if it's true that there are 0% nonresponders and that % response is on a continuum by person...and perhaps even by daily conditions (temp, humidity), course profile, etc. They're lighter. They're more cushioned. They're faster. They might not work for everyone. (But what does that mean? They're still the lightest shoe. So the plate doesn't work for everyone...but the lightness should.) They may work more for one person than the next. The physcolgical aspecy might be a factor. And on and on....

Really, this has become the most tiring topic under the sun.

shelooksafastfatty wrote:

strange that the new 10k WR was run in another shoe. So that athlete not only did outrun every other runner ever but also all the other shoes. your theory is funny but hard evidence shows the worlds fastest shoe is the takumi sen

Quality logic.

VFs win 999 races in a row. Takumi Sen wins 1 race.

"Clear proof Takumi Sen is best shoe."

notroll wrote:

Unless you can show that everyone was wearing the VFs this doesn’t mean anything. Correlation isn’t causation.

Although admirably concise and alliterative, the virtually tautological chestnut that "correlation isn't causation" is not a good reason for dismissing the world of statistics and probability as meaningless. (And, in any event, it would be no less true of statistics from races in which "everyone was wearing the VFs.")

glaukos wrote:

shelooksafastfatty wrote:

strange that the new 10k WR was run in another shoe. So that athlete not only did outrun every other runner ever but also all the other shoes. your theory is funny but hard evidence shows the worlds fastest shoe is the takumi sen

Quality logic.

VFs win 999 races in a row. Takumi Sen wins 1 race.

"Clear proof Takumi Sen is best shoe."

The difference is that the Takumi Sen produced one the of the strongest WRs, 26:24 is way ahead of any VF time. Also the Takumi Sen actually produced quite impressive results if you consider how few athletes actually wear it (T&F gets ruled by Nike, Adidas sponsoring of no name africans is quite pathetic in comparison). It won NYC 2018&2019, set a 10k WR and won last year's RAK half marathon in 58:42 (&I'm sure there is more). Not bad for a shoe which only gets used by a minority I'd say.

The Best wear Nike wrote:

The Best athletes in America are NFL, and PGA Golfers .

Don't go calling golf players athletes when I'm around! Golf is not a sport.

Of course bouncy shoes don't make people faster. All this talk about "local race results" is irrelevant, because those people aren't fast at all. They can improve their 5k from 25 to 23 minutes just by upping their training a little bit. Convince them they have "fast shoes" and that's exactly what they do, train more optimistically and go from slow to somewhat less slow.

Takumi Sen actually is the best shoe wrote:

The difference is that the Takumi Sen produced one the of the strongest WRs, 26:24 is way ahead of any VF time. Also the Takumi Sen actually produced quite impressive results if you consider how few athletes actually wear it (T&F gets ruled by Nike, Adidas sponsoring of no name africans is quite pathetic in comparison). It won NYC 2018&2019, set a 10k WR and won last year's RAK half marathon in 58:42 (&I'm sure there is more). Not bad for a shoe which only gets used by a minority I'd say.

Also, I believe, it's the choice for Nick Willis' 5th Ave Mile showings and probably used by other Adidas mid d guys as well. Definitely a worthy shoe that doesn't get the hype of the Vaporflys.

trollism wrote:

If you've seen the effect they've had on local running you wouldn't say that.

That is simply a placebo effect.

I could easily design a legal running shoe that is much better and faster than the Vaporfly.

This is too funny.

“People professing the shoes don’t help a ton” parallels Trump supporters that profess that he is handsome, athletic, smart, non-racist, etc. - whilst really knowing the truth.

Some people just like a non-level playing field.

Takumi Sen actually is the best shoe wrote:

glaukos wrote:

Quality logic.

VFs win 999 races in a row. Takumi Sen wins 1 race.

"Clear proof Takumi Sen is best shoe."

The difference is that the Takumi Sen produced one the of the strongest WRs, 26:24 is way ahead of any VF time. Also the Takumi Sen actually produced quite impressive results if you consider how few athletes actually wear it (T&F gets ruled by Nike, Adidas sponsoring of no name africans is quite pathetic in comparison). It won NYC 2018&2019, set a 10k WR and won last year's RAK half marathon in 58:42 (&I'm sure there is more). Not bad for a shoe which only gets used by a minority I'd say.

But Takumi Sen is made by Adidas. Who cares about Adidas these days?

The important issue is the fact that they were worn by a runner with a superior road running ability.