If VO2Max workouts are not needed, what should I do? Just threshold stuff?

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

What they call VO2max isn't even what it claims to be, because it is reached too slowly in the incremental test used when it was invented. The true max is hit within a couple minutes of all-out effort right from the bat, which generates the low intramuscular pH necessary to maximize gas exchange rates between blood and muscle.

If you race short middle distance, you need to train the same way.

Yes, Daniels calls VO2MAX something like 15-minute pace, which is simply wrong. True VO2MAX can only be held for 6-8 minutes in most runners. So in a well-trained elite, it would be 3k pace, in most recreational runners something a bit faster than 3k pace.

Why important for short mid-distance? For 800m, you want to be doing aerobic training (threshold/CV/tempos), sprints and quality around race-pace (~2 min pace, much faster than VO2MAX). Similar for a miler - 3k paced sessions can be a decent support training, but would never be the most important thing for a miler. Again, it's AEROBIC training, and the quality should be some reps very close to race-pace which is 4-5 minute pace for most good runners, and again faster than VO2MAX.

VO2MAX is very important for a 3k runner, as it's right on race pace and also important for 5k, as these are run very close to VO2MAX. Problem is you burn out after doing too many of these taxing sessions in a row, so they should only be used in the last 6-10 weeks before a peak race.

Not An Expert wrote:

Jgt11 wrote:

Do Race pace stuff, faster than race pace stuff, and slower than race pace stuff.

And occasionally substantially faster than race pace stuff! And a lot of much slower than race pace running (unless you're doing 50-mile+ ultras or 4:30+ marathons, in which case, you probably won't do much slower than race pace, and that should just read "and a lot of easy running").

It's not rocket science. The vast majority of us will get 95% of the way to our maximum at 3k-half marathon just doing this same two-week cycle with a couple breaks and a couple 6-8 week periods of mileage-building before starting this cycle every year:

Week 1

Quality 1: 20-30 minute tempo run, 4 x 200m @ mile pace w/ 200m jog recovery

Quality 2: 6-8 x 1k @ 8k-5k pace, 90s-2:30 recovery

Quality 3: 75-120 minute long run, sometimes hilly

The rest easy running with 1-3 days of 4-6 x 100m easy strides at the end

Week 2

Quality 1: 4-6 x mile @ 12k-15k pace, 90s recovery, 2 x 200m hard w/ full recovery

Quality 2: 6-8 x 600 @ 3k pace, 90s recovery

Quality 3: 60-90 minutes with the first half easy and the second half cutting down from marathon effort to half marathon effort

The rest easy running with 1-3 days of 4-6 x 100m easy strides at the end

If this is too dense for you, you can spread these workouts out over three weeks, too.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

that's the usual approximation to the increment test, but I still think it's wrong. If I go run an all-out 1000, I'm sure I'm using oxygen faster - however briefly - than I can get anywhere near during a 3000, even during the final kick, which is still much slower and therefore requires less fuel.

The concept is functionally just 3000 pace, and it's still useful as a training benchmark. But for those running the mile and less it's important to understand the core of their interval work should be volume at race pace. They already do that by tradition anyhow.

No, VO2MAX is 6-8 min pace for almost all serious runners (people who can't suffer might be way below it).

Let's say you can run a 1k in 2:35 and your 2400m pace is 3:00/k. After around 2 minutes, you will be at HR max and VO2MAX in both races, one time at a speed of 2:35/k and one time at a speed of 3:00/k. The reason you run the 1k faster is anaerobic energy, mostly from anaerobic glycolysis and that HURTS. Your body is processing the same amount of oxygen, but in the 1k it uses much more anaerobic energy - hence the event is just around 50% aerobic, whereas a 3k is 85%+ aerobic.

Komen, the best 3k runner of all time (and a genetic freak that might have actually been clean even tho many LR users think otherwise) did a LOT of training in the form of 400s in 58s - his exact VO2MAX pace. He would grind them out multiple times a week.

You are totally right about the training tho - principle of specificity. That said, Tinman thinks that 10x400 at mile pace with 1 min rest is a waste of time, and he would rather let milers do 400s at the MUCH less taxing VO2MAX pace like Komen did and then do something like 4x400 at 800m speed to really work on the speed. Again, this seems to be a very good way to train for the mile, Drew Hunter had lots of success with it.

Not An Expert wrote:

Jgt11 wrote:

Do Race pace stuff, faster than race pace stuff, and slower than race pace stuff.

And occasionally substantially faster than race pace stuff! And a lot of much slower than race pace running (unless you're doing 50-mile+ ultras or 4:30+ marathons, in which case, you probably won't do much slower than race pace, and that should just read "and a lot of easy running").

It's not rocket science. The vast majority of us will get 95% of the way to our maximum at 3k-half marathon just doing this same two-week cycle with a couple breaks and a couple 6-8 week periods of mileage-building before starting this cycle every year:

Week 1

Quality 1: 20-30 minute tempo run, 4 x 200m @ mile pace w/ 200m jog recovery

Quality 2: 6-8 x 1k @ 8k-5k pace, 90s-2:30 recovery

Quality 3: 75-120 minute long run, sometimes hilly

The rest easy running with 1-3 days of 4-6 x 100m easy strides at the end

Week 2

Quality 1: 4-6 x mile @ 12k-15k pace, 90s recovery, 2 x 200m hard w/ full recovery

Quality 2: 6-8 x 600 @ 3k pace, 90s recovery

Quality 3: 60-90 minutes with the first half easy and the second half cutting down from marathon effort to half marathon effort

The rest easy running with 1-3 days of 4-6 x 100m easy strides at the end

If this is too dense for you, you can spread these workouts out over three weeks, too.