If VO2Max workouts are not needed, what should I do? Just threshold stuff?

Don't believe everything you read.

who says they aren't needed? they aren't needed year round. But good for sharpening up as get within a couple months of your race.

Well, reading through some let'srun threads. Also, just read short article by Steve Magness on how it's overblown.

You need to read more to understand the context of what you're reading. Some coaches use training systems that target energy systems (like Daniels and the many derivatives of his system). Others do not, and those coaches tend to be skeptical of the emphasis on vO2max in Daniels and company.

If you're training for a 3K race, you'll end up doing a lot of work near your vO2max pace whether you believe in its importance or note. If you're training for a marathon, you might do some (Daniels) or none at all.

Do Race pace stuff, faster than race pace stuff, and slower than race pace stuff.

Jgt11 wrote:

Do Race pace stuff, faster than race pace stuff, and slower than race pace stuff.

And occasionally substantially faster than race pace stuff! And a lot of much slower than race pace running (unless you're doing 50-mile+ ultras or 4:30+ marathons, in which case, you probably won't do much slower than race pace, and that should just read "and a lot of easy running").

It's not rocket science. The vast majority of us will get 95% of the way to our maximum at 3k-half marathon just doing this same two-week cycle with a couple breaks and a couple 6-8 week periods of mileage-building before starting this cycle every year:

Week 1

Quality 1: 20-30 minute tempo run, 4 x 200m @ mile pace w/ 200m jog recovery

Quality 2: 6-8 x 1k @ 8k-5k pace, 90s-2:30 recovery

Quality 3: 75-120 minute long run, sometimes hilly

The rest easy running with 1-3 days of 4-6 x 100m easy strides at the end

Week 2

Quality 1: 4-6 x mile @ 12k-15k pace, 90s recovery, 2 x 200m hard w/ full recovery

Quality 2: 6-8 x 600 @ 3k pace, 90s recovery

Quality 3: 60-90 minutes with the first half easy and the second half cutting down from marathon effort to half marathon effort

The rest easy running with 1-3 days of 4-6 x 100m easy strides at the end

If this is too dense for you, you can spread these workouts out over three weeks, too.

samu56 wrote:

Just reading more of this type of stuff and a bit confused now?

Tell that to every successful pro, High School team and College team and see what they say.

I have yet to see a running program (even up to marathon) not have intervals. In most cases, intervals are going to be V02 max or close sessions. Sure, some have more rest than others, but at some point you are running V02 Max intervals.

What they call VO2max isn't even what it claims to be, because it is reached too slowly in the incremental test used when it was invented. The true max is hit within a couple minutes of all-out effort right from the bat, which generates the low intramuscular pH necessary to maximize gas exchange rates between blood and muscle.

If you race short middle distance, you need to train the same way.

Bad Wigins wrote:

What they call VO2max isn't even what it claims to be, because it is reached too slowly in the incremental test used when it was invented. The true max is hit within a couple minutes of all-out effort right from the bat, which generates the low intramuscular pH necessary to maximize gas exchange rates between blood and muscle.

If you race short middle distance, you need to train the same way.

Yes, Daniels calls VO2MAX something like 15-minute pace, which is simply wrong. True VO2MAX can only be held for 6-8 minutes in most runners. So in a well-trained elite, it would be 3k pace, in most recreational runners something a bit faster than 3k pace.

Why important for short mid-distance? For 800m, you want to be doing aerobic training (threshold/CV/tempos), sprints and quality around race-pace (~2 min pace, much faster than VO2MAX). Similar for a miler - 3k paced sessions can be a decent support training, but would never be the most important thing for a miler. Again, it's AEROBIC training, and the quality should be some reps very close to race-pace which is 4-5 minute pace for most good runners, and again faster than VO2MAX.

VO2MAX is very important for a 3k runner, as it's right on race pace and also important for 5k, as these are run very close to VO2MAX. Problem is you burn out after doing too many of these taxing sessions in a row, so they should only be used in the last 6-10 weeks before a peak race.

It depends on how much you race. Racing is working your VO2 max.

You can only fill your small VO2 max tank up so high. However your threshold/aerobic tank is boundless.

About once a week Race or VO2 workout is enough to fill that tank before it starts to spill.

Coach LL wrote:

It depends on how much you race. Racing is working your VO2 max.

You can only fill your small VO2 max tank up so high. However your threshold/aerobic tank is boundless.

About once a week Race or VO2 workout is enough to fill that tank before it starts to spill.

Agreed, but even then we need to have only a short period of racing, like 4-10 weeks where each week has EITHER a VO2MAX session OR a race. Then we need to spend months of training without any hard intervals to work on the aerobic system, which as you said has endless improvements.

This is if long-term development is the goal, which (sadly) might not be the case in many HS programs where the goal is to maximize performance in short-term and don't care what happens to the runners afterwards.

VO2MAX intervals bring very quick improvements to many runners, as anaerobic capacity increases, but it is playing with fire - do too much, for too long and you break down and lose most of the gains. In the worst case, you even end up destroying your stamina, which can be seen in runners who suddenly can't maintain a strong pace anymore in a race, just go out hard and finish fast. Aerobic gains are much harder to get, but will last for a very long time and allow higher/harder training loads in the future.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

VO2MAX is very important for a 3k runner, as it's right on race pace and also important for 5k, as these are run very close to VO2MAX. Problem is you burn out after doing too many of these taxing sessions in a row, so they should only be used in the last 6-10 weeks before a peak race.

I agree that doing hard VO2 workouts for an extended period of time isn't really sustainable, but I actually think a missing element in a lot of programs is easier workouts at 3k-5k pace. Stuff like 12x400 w/ 1 minute recovery, 5x800 w/ 2 minute recovery. You can do that year round without any trouble.

Yep, hit all the systems once every 2 weeks or so...for the last 5% you just make some tweaks to fit your specific race.

they are a necessary but not sufficient training stimulus.

I'm a bit confused here! It makes sense that doing VO2Max intervals to the exclusion or detriment of longer, continuous runs would cause loss of stamina in the medium term. But why would one every week or two weeks be harmful, as long as one can keep up the longer training at tempo and slower paces? Can anyone explain what is going on physiologically?

And can anyone elaborate on the difference between 12 x 400 and 5-6 x 800 and say 4 or 5 x 1km or mile repeats which would mean that one should exclude the last two? The latter are a bit harder, but surely there not is a huge difference which would cause one to burnout with one and not the other?

clarification_needed wrote:

I'm a bit confused here! It makes sense that doing VO2Max intervals to the exclusion or detriment of longer, continuous runs would cause loss of stamina in the medium term. But why would one every week or two weeks be harmful, as long as one can keep up the longer training at tempo and slower paces? Can anyone explain what is going on physiologically?

And can anyone elaborate on the difference between 12 x 400 and 5-6 x 800 and say 4 or 5 x 1km or mile repeats which would mean that one should exclude the last two? The latter are a bit harder, but surely there not is a huge difference which would cause one to burnout with one and not the other?

No idea on your first question, but I believe someone (that Tinman person?) has mentioned doing too much 'hard' running can actually deplete your aerobic ability, how or why I dunno.

For your 2nd question, you need to be more specific with those 2 sets of workouts as it depends on how they are done. I.e. depending on the pace and/or recovery used they could target the same or different systems. Neither one are easier nor harder btw.

Banner. wrote:

No idea on your first question, but I believe someone (that Tinman person?) has mentioned doing too much 'hard' running can actually deplete your aerobic ability, how or why I dunno.

For your 2nd question, you need to be more specific with those 2 sets of workouts as it depends on how they are done. I.e. depending on the pace and/or recovery used they could target the same or different systems. Neither one are easier nor harder btw.

Thanks for the reply! Sorry for not beubg clearer, I was responding to the comment of 800 dude above, who suggested that 'easier stuff' at 3km / 5km pace is OK, the examples being 12 x 400 with 1 minute recovery and 5 x 800 with 2 minute recovery. I was wondering about the difference between these and say 4-5 x 1km with 2 minute rest. A bit harder, but surely not massively so?

Agree. Would also like to hear answer to that.

Also, appreciate the responses so far. If it is true that VO2 Max workouts should not be done as much or that they are not sufficient enough...then can someone give me a basic phased training approach which would touch on the correct energy systems?

Looking at Daniels approach...

1. Base

2. Rep + Threshold focus

3. VO2Max + Threshold focus

4. Rep + Peak focus)

It seems #3 would be the wrong approach. What would I do instead? Let's say I'm a 5K runner.