What do the experts say about the pace where vo2max resides and workouts are based upon..? Daniels says 15 minute race pace and Tinman says 7 minute race pace... Maybe it’s too trivial...just would like to see what letsrun has to say.
What do the experts say about the pace where vo2max resides and workouts are based upon..? Daniels says 15 minute race pace and Tinman says 7 minute race pace... Maybe it’s too trivial...just would like to see what letsrun has to say.
Depends on other factors...not just "race pace". my guess is it lies between the 2 for most. If you look at Billet and vVo2, 6 minutes is best to determine velocity. After that time, speed in m/s deteriorate. If true, VO2 rises at that point to compensate for lost velocity.
Who cares about VO2 when you can work on velocity.
Bob Schul Country wrote:
Depends on other factors...not just "race pace". my guess is it lies between the 2 for most. If you look at Billet and vVo2, 6 minutes is best to determine velocity. After that time, speed in m/s deteriorate. If true, VO2 rises at that point to compensate for lost velocity.
Who cares about VO2 when you can work on velocity.
Any chance that training beyond or faster than vo2max will not be effective or ‘over train’ the system if too aggressive?
Daniels' vo2max data was based on a faulty study (done by Noakes I believe) in the 60s. Actual vo2max is closer to 7-8 minutes, not 11 or 15 minutes.
Pretty sure Daniels based vVO2max off of 11 minute race pace and not 15 minute race pace.
dsafdfwesde wrote:
Daniels' vo2max data was based on a faulty study (done by Noakes I believe) in the 60s. Actual vo2max is closer to 7-8 minutes, not 11 or 15 minutes.
Interesting.. Does Daniels acknowledge this? Follow up question, if Daniels knew that vO2max was actually 7-8min race pace, would a classic Daniels I Workout like, say, 7 x 1km (equal rest) @ vVO2max still be valid? I feel like that would be incredibly intense.
There is no magic pace. It is good to work at several different paces. They all have different benefits. The important thing is to develop a huge aerobic base then work down to faster paces after the base has been established. Most slow twitch runners can get away with a giant base and a very small amount of anaerobic training. Lydiard got it right.
The VDot tables presented in Dr. Daniels' books were created by Jimmy Gilbert, a mathematician and former runner of Jack's back in the 1970s. Jimmy calculations derived an 11:03 reference time. Years ago, I has an interest in determining how Jimmy derived that time. After several attempts from both long and short-times, I realized Jimmy may have used a starting point near 2hrs 30-minutes and worked backward, landing at 11:03 (below which it exceeds 100% in his model).
For a historical perspective, in the 1960s, Dr. Cooper created the 12-minute-run test to predict the VO2max of Air Force personnel. The model became widely used in the academic realm. By the way, in their book (Oxygen Power), either Dr. Jack Tupper Daniels or Jimmy Gilbert wrote that 8-10 minutes "demands about 100% aerobic capacity" (p. 98). Thus, they certainly knew that 11:03 time had some predictive limitations and might not fully align with science research. Sometimes, a model is good enough to do the job. No model is perfect, one realizes.
During the last 40-years, lots of research has shown the minimum velocity (or speed) of VO2max is sustained just 4-8 minutes. The assessment protocol used - the duration of the stages, whether continuous or intermittent and the background/fitness level of the participants - influences the average (mean) sustained duration.
As a general rule, trained runners sustain the vVO2max /MAS (maximum aerobic speed) 6-8-minutes. Field sports athletes tend to hold the vVO2/MAS closer to 4-6-minutes. If you have an interest in learning more, search the topic on the Google Scholar website or EbscoHost (if you are a university student). Remember, cycling, rowing, swimming, and cross-country skiing are similar to running but have nuanced differences. *Pay attention to the running research articles.
Here is one of many example research articles:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1076/apab.104.3.313.12908
Time at VO2max for the two protocols was 345-seconds (+/- 120-seconds) and 373-seconds (+/- 169-seconds).
I use 7-minutes for testing runners. For unfit, court-sport or field sport athletes, I use 5-minutes as a test of the speed or velocity of VO2max. In my opinion, shuttle-run tests are ideal for assessing the vVO2max/MAS of both court and field sport athletes.
The important factor is exact individual aerobic pace and recovery hr.
In my opinion if you want to target specially VO2max and oxygen absorbing/utilising capacity, you should be more likely focusing on heart rate. You can gauge in the effort more precisely and assure that you really spend time at VO2max.
You have to know yourself, as individuality and personalisation is key. It is also tough, purely focusing on VO2Max. Especially if you want to perform exercises on the track.
Science shows that effects on your VO2 starts at 65% and goes up to like 95% of MAX HR, affecting it stronger and stronger.
As an athlete with 200bpm max HR, if you wanted to ensure spending time at VO2max, you should be sprinting all out till your HR is 180 and keep it there and under 190 as long as possible. On hills this is very much doable, however on the track it can be very complicated, especially if you were all alone with your heart rate monitor.
In this case, the question of 7minute pace or 15minute pace would be answered. You hit your peak target heart rate range, hold it there as long as you want, press your lap button and see what you can do, for 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 minutes.
However most likely you understand this differently. We often talk about let's say a max volume VO2max session as 5 x 6minutes. Would you be able to hold 7minute pace for 6minutes 5 times ? I am not so sure. That would be more likely a 5 x 3:45/4:00. Complicated, not going down on that rabbit hole. For me the question is not that it is 7min or 15min pace. It is, how and what paces can you hold for how long, in order to achieve your race goal.
If your focus was not VO2Max but pacing and on the ability to hold certain paces, that is different. As you start and work on a constant pace for X-time and at the end of the splits, you hit your VO2Max or not, you don't care.
While Daniel's book certainly explains VO2Max, when you check his tables and his work in general, he is not saying, that in order to jump levels in the VDOT athlete chart, you must do for instance VO2Max workouts.
No. What you do is check his athlete chart with the goal time in your mind, then go over to the training chart and use the paces and workouts necessary to develop that goal time.
8 weeks out I prefer to switch to a Canovan aspect of training. Doing a time trial slash test 6 to 8 weeks out, reveals, that from now on I should be focusing more on speed or endurance, then another one 4 weeks out to determine the type of final sharpening needed.
If your solely goal is to improve your VO2Max to a higher level, I would do gauged in uphill intervals running and cycling, all based on heart rate.
Daniels' reserach also tells us that East African athletes running at 6000-7000 feet are doing their 'VO2max' workouts at 85-88% of their sea level oyxgen uptake. They are racing 5000m just 30 seconds slower at 6000 feet. So they can run 13.20 @ 88% VO2 max.
So when they run 12.50 at sea level they will likely be somewhat below VO2 max. Daniels also tells us that they don't have superior oxygen uptake compared to their American and European rivals, they just have superior oxygen economy. Maybe running at altitiude helps this, but then again to quote Daniels "Altitude training, is just another form of training".
another runner wrote:
There is no magic pace. It is good to work at several different paces. They all have different benefits. The important thing is to develop a huge aerobic base then work down to faster paces after the base has been established. Most slow twitch runners can get away with a giant base and a very small amount of anaerobic training. Lydiard got it right.
Actually there is a magic pace! The pace that is individual best for you to reach highest levels at the main factors that counts for the result. And you dont have to develop a huge aerobic base and then work down to faster paces after the aerobic base has been established. It is perfectly excellent to achieve at least as good results by performing the three main factors for the result in the same week .
Speed factory wrote:
another runner wrote:
There is no magic pace. It is good to work at several different paces. They all have different benefits. The important thing is to develop a huge aerobic base then work down to faster paces after the base has been established. Most slow twitch runners can get away with a giant base and a very small amount of anaerobic training. Lydiard got it right.
Actually there is a magic pace! The pace that is individual best for you to reach highest levels at the main factors that counts for the result. And you dont have to develop a huge aerobic base and then work down to faster paces after the aerobic base has been established. It is perfectly excellent to achieve at least as good results by performing the three main factors for the result in the same week .
Please tell us more
another runner wrote:
There is no magic pace. It is good to work at several different paces. They all have different benefits. The important thing is to develop a huge aerobic base then work down to faster paces after the base has been established. Most slow twitch runners can get away with a giant base and a very small amount of anaerobic training. Lydiard got it right.
Is the formula for training slow-twitch runners simpler than fast-twitch?
Levi.Run wrote:
In my opinion if you want to target specially VO2max and oxygen absorbing/utilising capacity, you should be more likely focusing on heart rate. You can gauge in the effort more precisely and assure that you really spend time at VO2max.
You have to know yourself, as individuality and personalisation is key. It is also tough, purely focusing on VO2Max. Especially if you want to perform exercises on the track.
Science shows that effects on your VO2 starts at 65% and goes up to like 95% of MAX HR, affecting it stronger and stronger.
As an athlete with 200bpm max HR, if you wanted to ensure spending time at VO2max, you should be sprinting all out till your HR is 180 and keep it there and under 190 as long as possible. On hills this is very much doable, however on the track it can be very complicated, especially if you were all alone with your heart rate monitor.
In this case, the question of 7minute pace or 15minute pace would be answered. You hit your peak target heart rate range, hold it there as long as you want, press your lap button and see what you can do, for 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 minutes.
However most likely you understand this differently. We often talk about let's say a max volume VO2max session as 5 x 6minutes. Would you be able to hold 7minute pace for 6minutes 5 times ? I am not so sure. That would be more likely a 5 x 3:45/4:00. Complicated, not going down on that rabbit hole. For me the question is not that it is 7min or 15min pace. It is, how and what paces can you hold for how long, in order to achieve your race goal.
If your focus was not VO2Max but pacing and on the ability to hold certain paces, that is different. As you start and work on a constant pace for X-time and at the end of the splits, you hit your VO2Max or not, you don't care.
While Daniel's book certainly explains VO2Max, when you check his tables and his work in general, he is not saying, that in order to jump levels in the VDOT athlete chart, you must do for instance VO2Max workouts.
No. What you do is check his athlete chart with the goal time in your mind, then go over to the training chart and use the paces and workouts necessary to develop that goal time.
8 weeks out I prefer to switch to a Canovan aspect of training. Doing a time trial slash test 6 to 8 weeks out, reveals, that from now on I should be focusing more on speed or endurance, then another one 4 weeks out to determine the type of final sharpening needed.
If your solely goal is to improve your VO2Max to a higher level, I would do gauged in uphill intervals running and cycling, all based on heart rate.
Pretty solid post, you broke it down well.
dsafdfwesde wrote:
Daniels' vo2max data was based on a faulty study (done by Noakes I believe) in the 60s. Actual vo2max is closer to 7-8 minutes, not 11 or 15 minutes.
^tinman
Tinman posted something different on this thread in answer to that question.
And he posted as Tinman.