Speaking of booms, Kenya and Ethiopia have dominated distance running for more than half a century, now. They've weathered brief spurts by the Eastern bloc, the British and the Chinese. Since Abebe Bikila's barefoot run in 1960 at the Rome Olympics opened the floodgates, only Olympic boycotts by either or both between 1976 and 1988 prevented complete shut outs of other countries.
Dirty as hell. Muir = clean WR holder at 3:55. Period.
Lets Think This One Through wrote:
Shades of her former self wrote:
The 3:50 WR was just far too obvious. That was her first mistake. It would almost be like a 5/10k guy running 3:28 and breaking the European Record.
Huh? How do you figure? Has she failed a drug test? Has she been sanctioned on her ABP? Has anyone implicated her in a drug scandal? She's probably one of most genetically gifted runners on the planet who trains very hard. ?
+1 - this, bravo genius, I like this board with such a wizards here, rojo where you find all of this guys, on the tree maybe?
Your thoughts are mine exactly but for MARION JONES, moran!
my a$$ is cleaner wrote:
Lets Think This One Through wrote:
Huh? How do you figure? Has she failed a drug test? Has she been sanctioned on her ABP? Has anyone implicated her in a drug scandal? She's probably one of most genetically gifted runners on the planet who trains very hard. ?
+1 - this, bravo genius, I like this board with such a wizards here, rojo where you find all of this guys, on the tree maybe?
Your thoughts are mine exactly but for MARION JONES, moran!
And yet you have no rebuttal to his arguments apart from name calling....
PS: by coaching a couple of 16yo young Ethiopians here in UK i can attest that they do have great genetics even at "lower levels", unless of course you want to imply they are doping too...
El Keniano wrote:
Speaking of booms, Kenya and Ethiopia have dominated distance running for more than half a century, now. They've weathered brief spurts by the Eastern bloc, the British and the Chinese. Since Abebe Bikila's barefoot run in 1960 at the Rome Olympics opened the floodgates, only Olympic boycotts by either or both between 1976 and 1988 prevented complete shut outs of other countries.
East Africa were players, but not dominant, in the '60s, '70s and '80s. A white farm boy from Illinois won World Cross...TWICE for crying out loud. Not to mention the pasty Brits who owned the middle distances, and Viren could not be out kicked. It wasn't until 1990's that Ethiopia and Kenya assumed control. You can make excuses about "politics! blah blah" all you want, but face it, in the EPO era, it was East Africa that emerged supreme. The two occasions will never be disentangled. When it was the Wild West of PED use, the Africans rose to the top and remain there.
KAV wrote:
my a$$ is cleaner wrote:
+1 - this, bravo genius, I like this board with such a wizards here, rojo where you find all of this guys, on the tree maybe?
Your thoughts are mine exactly but for MARION JONES, moran!
And yet you have no rebuttal to his arguments apart from name calling....
PS: by coaching a couple of 16yo young Ethiopians here in UK i can attest that they do have great genetics even at "lower levels", unless of course you want to imply they are doping too...
Fair play, but they also are not coached by Aden, nor did they break a longstanding doped record. I don't think anyone is questioning their genetic predisposition.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
3:50!
4 seconds faster than any know doper.
Of course he wouldn't have been using his ' vitamin' injections on her!
I'll preface this by saying outright I don't think Dibaba is clean. The associations around her are wayyy to shady for me to give any benefit of the doubt.
That said, this to me is about as terrible of an argument for doping as I can imagine. Especially when we are talking about Chinese runners who weren't known for having any special talent. It's not like getting confirmation Bekele doped, and then someone runs 15s faster than Bekele at 5000m.
We all know of masters or random age groups that have doped and run slow. The bottom line is, you have to believe it's impossible for a clean female, regardless of how talented, to run 3:50 to use that argument. Given that we have no idea how talented a female, or male, runner can be...I don't see how any can say that. It's very possible the Chinese weren't that good, but the insane level of doping took them to world beater status. This doesn't mean a clean athlete of supreme talent can't come along that could run 3:52, 3:50, or 3:45. That limit is totally unknown.
I get the premise, which is basically that if doping helps, say 2%, then there is no way someone without doping can compete. But whose to say the guys that are doping aren't naturally 12:55 runners, and that some other vastly more talented athlete can't come along that is capable of running 12:30 or 12:40 clean.
LM wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:
3:50!
4 seconds faster than any know doper.
Of course he wouldn't have been using his ' vitamin' injections on her!
I'll preface this by saying outright I don't think Dibaba is clean. The associations around her are wayyy to shady for me to give any benefit of the doubt.
That said, this to me is about as terrible of an argument for doping as I can imagine. Especially when we are talking about Chinese runners who weren't known for having any special talent. It's not like getting confirmation Bekele doped, and then someone runs 15s faster than Bekele at 5000m.
We all know of masters or random age groups that have doped and run slow. The bottom line is, you have to believe it's impossible for a clean female, regardless of how talented, to run 3:50 to use that argument. Given that we have no idea how talented a female, or male, runner can be...I don't see how any can say that. It's very possible the Chinese weren't that good, but the insane level of doping took them to world beater status. This doesn't mean a clean athlete of supreme talent can't come along that could run 3:52, 3:50, or 3:45. That limit is totally unknown.
I get the premise, which is basically that if doping helps, say 2%, then there is no way someone without doping can compete. But whose to say the guys that are doping aren't naturally 12:55 runners, and that some other vastly more talented athlete can't come along that is capable of running 12:30 or 12:40 clean.
I'd take this a step further and wonder if it isn't slightly more likely that a WR could be clean that the guys just behind him.
Why?
Well consider how athletes generally get into doping. Most don't just start with a plan to dope from the outset. Usually one of two things happen:
1) They get in with a group or coach that dopes them or convinces them to dope.
2) They find themselves stagnating or needing to get better to move up to the next level
In the case of situation #1, anybody at any level of running and talent is equally likely. Situation #2 is where it's a little more interesting. A supremely talented individual might be able to run say 12:35, 12:40, or 12:45 clean. This athlete would dominate at the junior levels, continuing to improve, all the whole getting better as a senior runner. As a natural 12:40 guy, he would move right on up to the top of the sport, quickly winning medals and settings records. The need to dope might never occur for him because he already reached the top level of the sport without it.
The guys I think are more likely to dope are the ones that come up and get stuck somewhere around 13:00-13:20 (or slower I suppose, but in that case I'm not sure even a bunch of dope can make the difference) and need to get faster. They'd get on the vitamins to try and make it to that next level of qualifying for the Olympics or moving up to being an actual contender at the world stage.
Dibaba is clean wrote:
Dibaba is clean
Dibaba's as dirty as the day is long. People are brainwashed into feeling good about not calling a POC out on anything untoward. The cowardice and/or brainwashing it really quite something to behold.
As for Aden being compared to Salazar, that's a laugh. Aden was basically caught dead to rights with enough EPO (and other drugs) to carry most of East Africa's athletes through a full summer of competition. Yeah, we'll let the protective media cloud things up to keep certain beliefs alive.
Most Westerners are very gullible, usually taking everything at face value.
Shades of her former self wrote:
The 3:50 WR was just far too obvious. That was her first mistake. It would almost be like a 5/10k guy running 3:28 and breaking the European Record.
Absolutely correct. The brainwashed sjw types noted by others will fall all over themselves to defend runners that they themselves would be attacking if those runners were paleface Europeans or North East Asians.
love you guys.
keep talking.
Yr rnd tstng or no competition wrote:
...
Dibaba's as dirty as the day is long. People are brainwashed into feeling good about not calling a POC out on anything untoward. The cowardice and/or brainwashing it really quite something to behold.
As for Aden being compared to Salazar, that's a laugh. Aden was basically caught dead to rights with enough EPO (and other drugs) to carry most of East Africa's athletes through a full summer of competition. Yeah, we'll let the protective media cloud things up to keep certain beliefs alive.
Most Westerners are very gullible, usually taking everything at face value.
Your post is essentially just insulting everyone who disagrees with you. That's not really an argument at all.
Try to post some sort of logic, rather than random insults.
Either she’s doping or not which is the same as all the other athletes that haven’t been caught or admitted to it.
I don’t think she is... same as I don’t think Hasay or Huddle or Flanagan or Ayana are doping.
No one on this forum knows for certain and most have no clue. Opinions are not facts.
Why don’t we wait for the dopers to get caught or wait until the experts (WADA/IAAF) figure out a more stringent protocol?
People are stupid and they believe what they want to believe. The really stupid don’t give a crap about the facts... their opinions & feelings are much more important.
Shades of her former self wrote:
The 3:50 WR was just far too obvious. That was her first mistake. It would almost be like a 5/10k guy running 3:28 and breaking the European Record.
What if they did a lot of push ups?
Lets Think This One Through wrote:
She's probably one of most genetically gifted runners on the planet who trains very hard. ?
Seriously, when you watch Dibaba battle with Hassan are you really surprised when Dibaba wins? Her running form and physical form are incredible. The fact that Hassan is even in the race, flailing all over the place, makes me think Hassan is the doper.
On the one hand, 14:10-20 types should be able to run in the low 3:50s, but among them probably only Genzebe Dibaba really made the effort, because Ethiopians at least prioritize the 5000m and up. On the other hand, 14:10-20 types, if they are female, are very likely to be cheating. Think about how they are absolutely smashing the 5000m times of American runners like Rowbury (14:38?) and Simpson (with 8:29, should be able to run 14:40s), who have run very close to the top non-Eastern Bloc times at 1500m. We know that drug testing in Ethiopia is virtually non-existent. Remember that they were apparently doing no testing at their national champs in that ARD report. Athletes with shady European agents and doctors are even more suspect. PEDs are very widely available and cheap in Ethiopia and Kenya. Genzebe and her 14:11? sister were present in Sabadell when Aden and his Moroccan trainer were found with enormous quantities of EPO and other drugs. Who knows what the Spanish authorities have been up to since then? She ran 3:50 and was running close to 2 flat 800 at the end of that race. For all we know, with male pacers, she might well have run 3:45 or better.
Not quite, Bucko wrote:
El Keniano wrote:
Speaking of booms, Kenya and Ethiopia have dominated distance running for more than half a century, now. They've weathered brief spurts by the Eastern bloc, the British and the Chinese. Since Abebe Bikila's barefoot run in 1960 at the Rome Olympics opened the floodgates, only Olympic boycotts by either or both between 1976 and 1988 prevented complete shut outs of other countries.
East Africa were players, but not dominant, in the '60s, '70s and '80s. A white farm boy from Illinois won World Cross...TWICE for crying out loud. Not to mention the pasty Brits who owned the middle distances, and Viren could not be out kicked. It wasn't until 1990's that Ethiopia and Kenya assumed control. You can make excuses about "politics! blah blah" all you want, but face it, in the EPO era, it was East Africa that emerged supreme. The two occasions will never be disentangled. When it was the Wild West of PED use, the Africans rose to the top and remain there.
Africa was not set up consistently with African Games and African Championships until 1990s. Sports, in general are upper-middle class and upper class activities. See amateurism. Africans had other pressing issues in 1960s through 1980s. There is greater world peace and greater peace on African Continent, thus more Africans have leisure time for relaxing ten to twenty mile runs.
Since you mentioned the Olympics, I counted medals from male competition in the 800m-marathon, not counting the steeple (which Kenya obviously does fantastic at and actually dominates), from 1960 through 2016.
There were 5 events, 800/1500/5000/10000/marathon, with three medals each per Olympics for 15 Olympics.
That yields 225 total medals, not counting any ties. Kenya had a fine total of 43 medals, Ethiopia 25. I might be off one or two and I did not count Paul Chelimo or Wilson Kipketer or other former Kenyans.
Kenya and Ethiopia have done very well, but they have in no way dominated the Olympics for 50 years.
Kenya medaled only three times in the 800 and twice in the 1500 prior to 1988, while Ethiopia has never medaled in either the 800 or 1500 (men). In 1988, Kenya medaled in the 800, 1500, 5000 (all golds) and won bronze in the 10000 and silver in the marathon. That was the beginning of really striking consistent performances for Kenya (1968 at altitude is an outlier here with five medals for Kenya from 800 through 10000).
Ethiopia won golds in three straight Olympic marathons from 1960 to 1968 and bronze in 1972then there was a 28 year drought before they medaled twice in 2000. They also medaled once each in 2008 and 2016.
The 5000 and 10000 have been Ethiopia's best event but their first medal was in 1980, golds for Yifter in both. They did not medal in the 5000 again until 1992, missed out in 1996, and then won gold in 2000, silver in 2004, gold in 2008, silver in 2012, and bronze in 2016. In the 1000, Ethiopia won nothing until 1968 (silver), bronze in 1972, gold and bronze in 1980, nothing in 1984 or 1988, then bronze in 1992, golds in 1996 and 2000 (plus a bronze in the latter), then gold and silver in 2004 and 2008, bronze in 2012 and bronze in 2016.
Excellence, and selective at that, but not dominance.
By comparison, the distance poor United States has won 18 medals from 800 through marathon (not counting steeple) for the men from 1960 through 2016, 6 at the 800m, 3 at the 1500m, 3 at the 5000, 2 at the 10000, and 4 at the marathon.
18 is fewer than 25 for Ethiopia, but it is not that much fewer.
True dominance was seen by the U.S. in the sprints until the Jamaicans doped their way through 2008 and following, as the U.S. has won a total of 63 medals out of 135 in just the three main sprint events of the 100 (16 medals), 200 (21 medals), and 400 (26 medals). The U.S. won 25 medals in the 110mH alone during the same period, 20 at the 400mH, 7 golds and 1 silver in the 4x100m, and 11 golds plus 1 silver (dq'd once or more other times for doping) in the 4x400m out of 15 Olympics and just 14 Olympics that the U.S. didn't boycott.
(This is comparable to Kenya's steeple dominance with 22 medals, beginning in 1968).
Agree with you wrote:
Either she’s doping or not which is the same as all the other athletes that haven’t been caught or admitted to it.
I don’t think she is... same as I don’t think Hasay or Huddle or Flanagan or Ayana are doping.
No one on this forum knows for certain and most have no clue. Opinions are not facts.
Why don’t we wait for the dopers to get caught or wait until the experts (WADA/IAAF) figure out a more stringent protocol?
People are stupid and they believe what they want to believe. The really stupid don’t give a crap about the facts... their opinions & feelings are much more important.
Yeah I get really tired of folk bringing up the unassailable "turtle blood" records of the Chinese as reference to why current Ethiopians must be doping. Yes it has been established that the chinese were doped, yes it has been established that Ma had them doing insane workouts whilst on the juice. But look at these records in context. none of the the female Chinese athletes concerned ever burned as bright again and were regularly beaten thereafter. In addition look at footage of Wang Junxia running, she looks robotic and totally devoid of rhythm and "talent" - she resembles a wind up toy being forced along by its internal mechanism - very similar in fact to the current Japanese female distance runners, low arms and choppy stride. Now compare this to the bio mechanics of Dibaba and Ayana. The comparison is a joke.
In her supernova fortnight during Chinese nationals where she ran insane times in three finals (not to mention the heats) Wang demonstrated superhuman recovery within a minimal period - something simply not possible. What she did was akin to Ayana breaking the 10K WR and then breaking the 5K WR the following day. This is impossible to my mind - and notably Ayanas only loss over 5K events in the previous two years has been after firstly running the 10K and not recovering sufficiently for the second event the following week.
Genzebe is a little murkier. - It basically all revolves around whether Jama Aden was complicit in the EPO being discovered in the physios room. many will say its impossible he couldnt have known. others will await the completion of investigation. - But it doesnt look too positive. I will await Dibabas performances over the following year to draw conclusions. If she never again reaches a dominant position (outdoors) then I will be more sus as to her previous achievements.
As for Ayana, I think she gets a crappy deal from western pundits. She runs a unique way - one never seen before and her fast splits and times need to be processed and assessed as such and not in comparison to her current competitors - or historical ones for that matter. Ayana is simply an easy target. She turns up, runs fast and then and keeps a low profile until the next track season, she isnt on social media and has no publicist, she doesnt court attention and she doesnt speak English. All this makes her an enigma. She is the Archetypal persona for a witch hunt .